No Oppo Supporters The Melt Thread

[Steinfreo]

So you guys, this is my first post in the melt thread and I am seriously a bee's away from going into megamelt™ mode... I am so eff'ing pissed off about all this sh*t and just want the club to show some semblance of stability through it. We've traded like sh*t, drafted like sh*t, list managed like sh*t and relied on a then-superior and now-defunct RTB standard game plan, and that needs to stop fast. This off-season is defining for us - it better be bloody productive or we will be in the wilderness for a fair spell and negate much of the recent (and very admirable) improvement in our club's culture and standing. Had to let a trickle of rant release, thanks for listening.

its ok man your melt was valid. I think we have to be realistic and acknowledge that we are probably down maybe a couple of seasons. some sort of gameplan, healthy Bennell and securing fyfe are my major hopes for next year. everything else is a bonus

 

[Proud SJW]

... Had to let a trickle of rant release, thanks for listening.

Now why would you say thanks in the melt thread?

 

[believe_it]

Remember when I said I was going to kill you last???

Yes yes that's right

I lied

Where's Sully?

I let him go

 

[PurpleWizard]

We played eight who are under 22 today. A few of them with less than 10 games.
We will only go up from here.
Fyfe, Bennell and McCarthy will make a huge impact next year. Let's also add Yarran for a full season and we are talking real significant team strengthening.
Even though Alex Pearce is young he is definitely a talent that we have missed this year.
I am confident we have bottomed.

Fyfe, AP and Bennell all have major injury concerns and Fyfe & AP won't help our deplorable skills. McCarthy, Apeness and Tabs is still the worse tall forward line in the comp. I would like to have your optimism but coming into 2017 with no Pav, Ballaz, Langdon, Suban, Mayne, Barlow and the rest of the older warriors will only make us worse not better. 2018 without Sandi, MJ and even Mundy will keep us on the bottom for the another year. Our youth have shown a bit but nothing compared to other younger teams in the comp. Weller has been disappointing as a possible A grader, Sutcliffe is in limbo and we seem lost with Sheridan and now giving him bottom of the barrel tagger roles. I won't go through the whole list but it's time for a serious re-build and bring in some kids that can kick the ball and make good decisions. Our list is 3-4 years behind the St-kilda, Melbourne and Bullies.

That said I'm not angry and I expected this. I'm happy we went full tilt for the flag and didn't turn over our list. But there's no quick fix nor do we want it. Rising up the ladder next year will only hurt us long term. Hopefully we can bring in 4-6 quality kids from very high picks over the next few years and with Fyfe, Bennell, Walters, Hill, Neale we can contend again.

 

[Belnakor]

Fyfe, AP and Bennell all have major injury concerns and Fyfe & AP won't help our deplorable skills.

whats wrong with Fyfe/AP's skills? the majority of Fyfe's bad kicks are because he has 2 guys hanging off him.

putting 3 top liners into ANY team will change their output dramatically. Fyfe/Bennell/Sandilands will lift us up very quickly. If you think we'd have won so many games in 2015 without Fyfe your kidding yourself.

 

[salim malik]

Fyfe, AP and Bennell all have major injury concerns and Fyfe & AP won't help our deplorable skills. McCarthy, Apeness and Tabs is still the worse tall forward line in the comp. I would like to have your optimism but coming into 2017 with no Pav, Ballaz, Langdon, Suban, Mayne, Barlow and the rest of the older warriors will only make us worse not better. 2018 without Sandi, MJ and even Mundy will keep us on the bottom for the another year. Our youth have shown a bit but nothing compared to other younger teams in the comp. Weller has been disappointing as a possible A grader, Sutcliffe is in limbo and we seem lost with Sheridan and now giving him bottom of the barrel tagger roles. I won't go through the whole list but it's time for a serious re-build and bring in some kids that can kick the ball and make good decisions. Our list is 3-4 years behind the St-kilda, Melbourne and Bullies.

That said I'm not angry and I expected this. I'm happy we went full tilt for the flag and didn't turn over our list. But there's no quick fix nor do we want it. Rising up the ladder next year will only hurt us long term. Hopefully we can bring in 4-6 quality kids from very high picks over the next few years and with Fyfe, Bennell, Walters, Hill, Neale we can contend again.

We haven't seen Mcarthy, Apeness and Tabs along with Walters and Bennell in the forward half together so the worst forward line in the comp is a big call. Crystal ball stuff. You're also forgetting the games we have got into the youngsters plus another pre season will hopefully help them. Also you are making crystal ball predictions on our delistings. Next season is a mystery. Who knows what the returning injured players and the new faces will bring to the next season.

 

[PurpleWizard]

We haven't seen Mcarthy, Apeness and Tabs along with Walters and Bennell in the forward half together so the worst forward line in the comp is a big call. Crystal ball stuff. You're also forgetting the games we have got into the youngsters plus another pre season will hopefully help them. Also you are making crystal ball predictions on our delistings. Next season is a mystery. Who knows what the returning injured players and the new faces will bring to the next season.

I was talking about our talls. Apeness is still pretty much in his first year of development, McCarthy has had more pingaz than training sessions this season and he's not on our list and Tabs has shown some improvement. Yes we've got some games into our youngsters, but what teams do you see us passing next year? name 5?... I may not have a crystal ball but it's pretty obvious that we won't improve our ladder position next year.

Crystal ball stuff on our delistings? again it's pretty obvious stuff, Has Mayne and Barlow been offered a contract? no because they're not in a long term plans. Pretty obvious Ballaz has been told the same thing. Why hasn't Langdon signed?...

 

[meima]

We haven't seen Mcarthy, Apeness and Tabs along with Walters and Bennell in the forward half together so the worst forward line in the comp is a big call. Crystal ball stuff. You're also forgetting the games we have got into the youngsters plus another pre season will hopefully help them. Also you are making crystal ball predictions on our delistings. Next season is a mystery. Who knows what the returning injured players and the new faces will bring to the next season.

This is a melt thread my friend Salim, he can melt whatever he want is within the rule.

 

[Admiral Byng]

McCarthy, Apeness and Tabs is still the worse tall forward line in the comp.

I think it will still be an improvement on this year.

Especially if one or two of them can present a little further up and take a few marks around half-forward - it means we won't need to be bombing it long to a pack 20m out all the time.

Add Walters and Yarran to the mix as small forwards. I think we'll do better than this year.

 

[Scham]

I think it will still be an improvement on this year.

I think we'll do better than this year.

I seriously can't see how we could be worse.

Just add a couple of the players that are injured and just an ounce of structure we'll have to do better. Surely.

 

[PurpleWizard]

I think it will still be an improvement on this year.

Especially if one or two of them can present a little further up and take a few marks around half-forward - it means we won't need to be bombing it long to a pack 20m out all the time.

Add Walters and Yarran to the mix as small forwards. I think we'll do better than this year.

An old Pav over McCarthy?... I'm hopeful on Apeness but he's still very injury prone and still a couple of years off imo. Our fwd line won't work until we can get some decent ball movers in our team and you can wish for miracles but it won't happen next year.

I'm excited about Bennell and hopefully he can help Walters out but I want Bennell to play behind the ball next year. Even though he may not be suited there like Hill/Mundy I'm hoping it can work because that's one thing that may help our run and ball movement. And before we get excited about Bennell lets see if he can make it through the pre-season and prove to us that his calf isn't shot.

I may be melting hard here but I do see us challenging in a few years if we can keep Fyfe and our young Victorian players.

 

[wayToGo_]

Fyfe, AP and Bennell all have major injury concerns and Fyfe & AP won't help our deplorable skills. McCarthy, Apeness and Tabs is still the worse tall forward line in the comp. I would like to have your optimism but coming into 2017 with no Pav, Ballaz, Langdon, Suban, Mayne, Barlow and the rest of the older warriors will only make us worse not better. 2018 without Sandi, MJ and even Mundy will keep us on the bottom for the another year. Our youth have shown a bit but nothing compared to other younger teams in the comp. Weller has been disappointing as a possible A grader, Sutcliffe is in limbo and we seem lost with Sheridan and now giving him bottom of the barrel tagger roles. I won't go through the whole list but it's time for a serious re-build and bring in some kids that can kick the ball and make good decisions. Our list is 3-4 years behind the St-kilda, Melbourne and Bullies.

That said I'm not angry and I expected this. I'm happy we went full tilt for the flag and didn't turn over our list. But there's no quick fix nor do we want it. Rising up the ladder next year will only hurt us long term. Hopefully we can bring in 4-6 quality kids from very high picks over the next few years and with Fyfe, Bennell, Walters, Hill, Neale we can contend again.

I agree with most of this but I'd say you are being slightly too pessimistic. If you look at a lot of the teams coming through now, their lists weren't in that great shape (worse than ours imo) a few short years ago. But they backed in the development of their youngsters and toughed it through some difficult years whilst playing youth over experience. We haven't even done that for a full season yet. If you look at our youngsters as a group I'd argue it does compare well against most other clubs.

McCarthy and Apeness were the 2nd and 3rd best tall forwards in their draft year. Cam has only played 21 games and Michael 5 games so far. I think it is more likely than not that they will both become very good forwards in time. Expecting they'll both pass Tabs as KPFs easily next year. Walters, Yarran and Bennell is hardly the worst small/medium forward combination in the league. And Fyfe can score like a forward from the midfield. Whilst Weller, Langdon (hope we keep) and Sheridan (finally moved out of defence) can all kick a goal on the run. Give it 12 months and our forward line could potentially be better than most (assuming we can deliver lace out inside 50 occasionally and not just bomb it in and cross our fingers).

Our midfield will bounce back after a better pre-season. Fyfe returning to the middle. Neale and Blakely having stepped up in his absence. Us not needing Hill in the middle so he can play predominantly his natural outside game. Bennell added to the mix. An elite talent added with our pick #3. Our ruck depth is a weakness but I look at how Sydney survived fine without Tippett recently so not replacing Sandi with an 'A' grader shouldn't be an excuse for poor performance.

Our back line looks pretty bad atm but bolstering our midfield next year should alleviate a heap of pressure for our defenders. Alex Pearce, Collins, Tucker and Hughes will go in to next year with a heap more AFL experience. Crozier gets to have a pre-season knowing the position he'll play in. If we can't squeeze another year out of Johnson that will probably mean more opportunities for our youngsters like Uebergang and Nyhuis. I think we have the athletic profiles we need, might need 1 or 2 more with skills in the mix but if we can keep them playing together and gaining experience I can see them improving relatively quickly.

I think the two likely scenarios next year are we'll bounce back a bit and end up in the middle of the pack. Or we will have similar issues like we have had this year and will remain toward the bottom of the ladder. In the first scenario we are heading in the right direction and will still have ok draft picks to draft/trade more talent. And if we remain cellar dwellers then we have the excuse to cut our list deep again (with the remaining 30yo+ players) and have another off season with plenty of currency to fill our list gaps. I think knowledgeable supporters will understand and be patient knowing that in the long run we'll be in a better position to be competitive.

 

[salim malik]

I was talking about our talls. Apeness is still pretty much in his first year of development, McCarthy has had more pingaz than training sessions this season and he's not on our list and Tabs has shown some improvement. Yes we've got some games into our youngsters, but what teams do you see us passing next year? name 5?... I may not have a crystal ball but it's pretty obvious that we won't improve our ladder position next year.

Crystal ball stuff on our delistings? again it's pretty obvious stuff, Has Mayne and Barlow been offered a contract? no because they're not in a long term plans. Pretty obvious Ballaz has been told the same thing. Why hasn't Langdon signed?...

Your exact quote was that Apeness, Tabs and McCarthy are stlll the worse forward line in the comp. Bit hard to follow that statement when they have never played together. I can't name anything that might happen next season because unlike you I haven't got a crystal ball. The melt thread is surely about what's the problems now not what might happen in 6 months time.

 

[Bicco]

I think it would be an easier exercise to identify those supporters that aren't deluded flogs. I'll give it a go.

1. Reginald Perrin
2. ...

Yep, that's about it.

Only the true messiah denies his divinity.

 

[Admiral Byng]

An old Pav over McCarthy?... I'm hopeful on Apeness but he's still very injury prone and still a couple of years off imo. Our fwd line won't work until we can get some decent ball movers in our team and you can wish for miracles but it won't happen next year.

I'm excited about Bennell and hopefully he can help Walters out but I want Bennell to play behind the ball next year. Even though he may not be suited there like Hill/Mundy I'm hoping it can work because that's one thing that may help our run and ball movement. And before we get excited about Bennell lets see if he can make it through the pre-season and prove to us that his calf isn't shot.

I may be melting hard here but I do see us challenging in a few years if we can keep Fyfe and our young Victorian players.

Dare I say it, but yes. I've been saying for a few weeks now our lack of forward structure is most acute around half-forward. Which is why we bomb it long so much. We need some forwards that are going to lead up and present a marking option on or around the forward 50m arc. But they have to be young enough and quick enough to get separation on their opponents. I love Pav, but he isn't quick enough any more.

 

[PurpleWizard]

I agree with most of this but I'd say you are being slightly too pessimistic. If you look at a lot of the teams coming through now, their lists weren't in that great shape (worse than ours imo) a few short years ago. But they backed in the development of their youngsters and toughed it through some difficult years whilst playing youth over experience. We haven't even done that for a full season yet. If you look at our youngsters as a group I'd argue it does compare well against most other clubs.

McCarthy and Apeness were the 2nd and 3rd best tall forwards in their draft year. Cam has only played 21 games and Michael 5 games so far. I think it is more likely than not that they will both become very good forwards in time. Expecting they'll both pass Tabs as KPFs easily next year. Walters, Yarran and Bennell is hardly the worst small/medium forward combination in the league. And Fyfe can score like a forward from the midfield. Whilst Weller, Langdon (hope we keep) and Sheridan (finally moved out of defence) can all kick a goal on the run. Give it 12 months and our forward line could potentially be better than most (assuming we can deliver lace out inside 50 occasionally and not just bomb it in and cross our fingers).

Our midfield will bounce back after a better pre-season. Fyfe returning to the middle. Neale and Blakely having stepped up in his absence. Us not needing Hill in the middle so he can play predominantly his natural outside game. Bennell added to the mix. An elite talent added with our pick #3. Our ruck depth is a weakness but I look at how Sydney survived fine without Tippett recently so not replacing Sandi with an 'A' grader shouldn't be an excuse for poor performance.

Our back line looks pretty bad atm but bolstering our midfield next year should alleviate a heap of pressure for our defenders. Alex Pearce, Collins, Tucker and Hughes will go in to next year with a heap more AFL experience. Crozier gets to have a pre-season knowing the position he'll play in. If we can't squeeze another year out of Johnson that will probably mean more opportunities for our youngsters like Uebergang and Nyhuis. I think we have the athletic profiles we need, might need 1 or 2 more with skills in the mix but if we can keep them playing together and gaining experience I can see them improving relatively quickly.

I think the two likely scenarios next year are we'll bounce back a bit and end up in the middle of the pack. Or we will have similar issues like we have had this year and will remain toward the bottom of the ladder. In the first scenario we are heading in the right direction and will still have ok draft picks to draft/trade more talent. And if we remain cellar dwellers then we have the excuse to cut our list deep again (with the remaining 30yo+ players) and have another off season with plenty of currency to fill our list gaps. I think knowledgeable supporters will understand and be patient knowing that in the long run we'll be in a better position to be competitive.

I agree with most of what youre saying but I probably rate the middle of the pack a bit higher than you. I'm ready to be more patient than most and looking forward to seeing the progress of our kids. The only thing I strongly disagree with you is that we don't need very high picks, I know it's possible to get lucky in later picks but our best chance of being a serious contender is to get a Stringer, Bont or any other high draft pick match winners on our list. I rather bottom out and contend in 3-4 years than to keep fighting and finish the middle of the road for 5 years and hope we get lucky or do an Adelaide. I know there's no guarantees in high draft picks and constant bottom of ladder finishes may kill the team's spirit and culture but i feel it's our best chance for a premiership.

 

[PurpleWizard]

Your exact quote was that Apeness, Tabs and McCarthy are stlll the worse forward line in the comp. Bit hard to follow that statement when they have never played together. I can't name anything that might happen next season because unlike you I haven't got a crystal ball. The melt thread is surely about what's the problems now not what might happen in 6 months time.

Was that the exact quote? nice... check again.

 

[im_a_lazy_sod]

Forwards who can take marks and kick goals are great - but if you can't get the ball to them (cleanly) then there's not much point. Pav in his prime could turn crap or next to no delivery in to 4-5 goals a game against most side. No other forward in the comp can do that - let alone any forward we can poach or develop.

What we need is better users through the middle - losing Kirk was massive for us, plus stone moving away from the mids. In hindsight our coaching and development structures and appointments for this season have been whack (some pointed this out quite early on as well). Getting Fyfe back and possibly Bennell in the middle (and a fit Sandi - if that's still a possibility for 2017) isn't going to be some great white hope, we need to shake up the mids with a better coaching regime and more structure for them and of course the forwards

With suma leaving and a few holes to fill, now is a perfect time to start - no point waiting until the end of season review because we all know that the outcome will be shit. Need a massive refresh

 

[salim malik]

Was that the exact quote? nice... check again.

Yep ,read your post again. McCarthy Apeness and Tabs still the worst forward line in the comp. Word for word. Bit hard to wriggle out of that.
You're not Hackdorn are you.

 

[meima]

Forwards who can take marks and kick goals are great - but if you can't get the ball to them (cleanly) then there's not much point. Pav in his prime could turn crap or next to no delivery in to 4-5 goals a game against most side. No other forward in the comp can do that - let alone any forward we can poach or develop.

What we need is better users through the middle - losing Kirk was massive for us, plus stone moving away from the mids. In hindsight our coaching and development structures and appointments for this season have been whack (some pointed this out quite early on as well). Getting Fyfe back and possibly Bennell in the middle (and a fit Sandi - if that's still a possibility for 2017) isn't going to be some great white hope, we need to shake up the mids with a better coaching regime and more structure for them and of course the forwards

With suma leaving and a few holes to fill, now is a perfect time to start - no point waiting until the end of season review because we all know that the outcome will be shit. Need a massive refresh

Agree , start early , pre season main session ball skill ( eg monday , wednesday ,friday).
Endurance and strength ( thuesday, thursday , sat). Invite peel for match simulation with normal freo peel boy on the other team.

 

[PurpleWizard]

Yep ,read your post again. McCarthy Apeness and Tabs still the worst forward line in the comp. Word for word. Bit hard to wriggle out of that.
You're not Hackdorn are you.

"McCarthy, Apeness and Tabs is still the worse tall forward line in the comp"

(sorry for the horrible english)

 

[salim malik]

"McCarthy, Apeness and Tabs is still the worse tall forward line in the comp"

(sorry for the horrible english)

Semantic's.Tall,schmall. They still have never played a game together so its all hypothetical. You can't call them the worse anything.

 

[ydraw]

Forwards who can take marks and kick goals are great - but if you can't get the ball to them (cleanly) then there's not much point.

Our delivery would look a a lot better if we had anyone in the forward line to kick to.

It's very difficult to hit a target when all the targets have been instructed to push up to the half back line. All your kicks are going to look bad when the only option up forward is Pavlich in a 2vs1 situation.

It is a coaching issue, I don't believe for a second that literally everyone in our team can't hit a pass to a lead. It's our structure, and the fault for that lies squarely at the feet of the coaches.

 

[youmewe]

Our delivery would look a a lot better if we had anyone in the forward line to kick to.

It's very difficult to hit a target when all the targets have been instructed to push up to the half back line. All your kicks are going to look bad when the only option up forward is Pavlich in a 2vs1 situation.

It is a coaching issue, I don't believe for a second that literally everyone in our team can't hit a pass to a lead. It's our structure, and the fault for that lies squarely at the feet of the coaches.

Agree strongly with this.

I'm a big fan of MIF's (marks inside forward 50). That's MIF's not MILF's (I'm an even bigger fan of MILF's but that's another story).

This season we're dead last in the league when it comes to MIF's (8.95 per game) and last by a wide margin.

Over the past three weeks our MIF count reads: 4 v Sydney; 8 v West Coast and 4 v Adelaide. We were out-MIF'ed 4-20 v Adelaide.

There is a very strong correlation between MIF's and ladder position.

Since 2001 only eight teams have averaged less than 9 MIF's per game:

2014

Brions 8.41 MIF's (15th on the final ladder)
Melbourne 8.68 MIF's (17th)

2012

Port 8.95 MIF's (14th)
Western B's 8.36 MIF's (15th)
GWS 7.45 MIF's (18th)

2011

Gold Coast 6.91 MIF's (17th)

2010

Richmond 8.95 MIF's (15th/16)

2008

West Coast 8.77 MIF's (15th/16).


Since 2001, the season MIF's league rank for the premiers reads like this:

2001: 3rd; 2002: 1st; 2003: 8th; 2004: 3rd; 2005: 2nd; 2006: 14th; 2007: 1st; 2008: 2nd; 2009: 1st; 2010: 2nd; 2011: 1st; 2012: 12th; 2013: 1st; 2014: 3rd; 2015: 1st.

In 2006, West Coast won the MIF's 14-9. In 2012, Hawthorn effectively kicked their way out of a flag.

MIF's are gilt edged, no pressure on the kicker, golden scoring opportunities. It makes sense that the more of them you have the greater the likelihood of posting a winning score.

For some reason we insist on playing a game style which makes high MIF numbers less likely than seeing a 'We love WADA' sign at Windy Hill. Even Don Quixote gave up tilting at windmills eventually (he died).

 

[Lach72]

It's all related to kicking. Structures structures.

Until this year Pav has had the ability I beat an opponent on the lead no problem.
We cannot hit a target to save ourselves.

I remember one kick Bennell did in the pre-season where he picked out Sonny in traffic.


My first thought was "only Sonny would try that."

My second thought was only Sonny and Stephen hill could hit that regularly WITHOUT traffic"

Look at Tommy's attempt to kick over the defender to Ballantyne...fluffed it.

Let alone all of the kicks that cause our forwards to stop and prop or just sail over the top.

It's like we have no idea of how to account for a man that's actually moving.

And it's why SPS is so impressive. He puts the ball where the moving man SHOULD be.

We need him!