Strategy The midfield

[Jeremias]

There has been a lot of discussion creeping into other threads about our midfield, but it deserves its own thread.

We enter 2020 still reliant on an experienced few, though the depth we have managed to build in this area of the ground is seriously impressive. We now have a glut of talent who could feature prominently, albeit many are very young and require further development.

The proof will as always be in the pudding, but it is very hard to not get excited about what this group may produce in 2020 and beyond, and it all starts in the midfield.

For a while now I have wanted to take a deeper look into our midfield, and 2020 is finally the year to do it.
I will be posting in this thread a weekly update on formations, success rates and any other stats relevant to the midfield debate.

In the meantime, I am keen to hear what you think is our optimal midfield setup come R1 vs the Tigers?
What are your expectations for our midfield group in 2020?
What do you see as the strengths and weaknesses of our midfield options, both individually and as a collective?
Are there any specific types you think we need to target come the player movement period at the end of 2020?

For reference, this is the midfield group we recently voted as being our consensus best 22:

C: Sam Walsh, Patrick Cripps, Will Setterfield
FOL: Matthew Kreuzer, Ed Curnow, Marc Murphy
INT: Sam Petrevski-Seton, Zac Fisher, Jack Newnes

Whether or not you agree with this as being our best setup to start the year, there is no doubt this is a very talented group. Even more telling perhaps is the caliber of footballers who would be waiting in reserve.

Have at it.

 

[Revenant1965]

I am giving this thread a 'bump' as I am wondering about midfield going forward. Apologies if it's the wrong thread. But there are a couple of sets of questions for me

What will the midfield look like moving forward? Kennedy's and Dow's recent games, plus Williams spending more time back, makes me wonder about best mix moving forward. Also wish we had 2 X Sam Walsh

18

Sam Walsh

Age

23

Ht

184cm

Wt

84kg

Pos.

Mid

Career

Season

Last 5

D

25.1

5star

K

13.5

5star

HB

11.6

5star

M

5.1

5star

T

3.2

5star

CL

3.4

5star

No current season stats available

D

26.2

5star

K

15.4

5star

HB

10.8

5star

M

6.0

5star

T

3.2

5star

CL

4.8

5star

- 1 to play mid, and 1 on wing. But there will always only be one Sam Walsh

18

Sam Walsh

Age

23

Ht

184cm

Wt

84kg

Pos.

Mid

Career

Season

Last 5

D

25.1

5star

K

13.5

5star

HB

11.6

5star

M

5.1

5star

T

3.2

5star

CL

3.4

5star

No current season stats available

D

26.2

5star

K

15.4

5star

HB

10.8

5star

M

6.0

5star

T

3.2

5star

CL

4.8

5star

. So what is good combination and rotations for midfield?

The other set of questions has to do with coaching. I know nothing of inner workings, but it seems to me with Luke Power

Luke Power

Age

44

Ht

180cm

Wt

79kg

Pos.

M/F

Career

Season

Last 5

D

23.0

5star

K

13.4

5star

HB

9.6

5star

M

3.9

4star

T

3.9

5star

CL

1.9

4star

No current season stats available

D

16.6

4star

K

10.2

4star

HB

6.4

4star

M

1.4

2star

T

2.0

4star

taking on midfield responsibilities there has been a change, almost like a 'freeing up'. How much is due to Power's influence? Are there other changes to game-day set-ups we'd like to see moving forward?

Again, apologies if this is the wrong thread. I just see these thoughts in various threads, and I would appreciate some more thoughts in this area of the midfield (including what we might need moving forward). Thanks all

 

[Cripps 'n' Blue Bloods]

I am giving this thread a 'bump' as I am wondering about midfield going forward. Apologies if it's the wrong thread. But there are a couple of sets of questions for me

What will the midfield look like moving forward? Kennedy's and Dow's recent games, plus Williams spending more time back, makes me wonder about best mix moving forward. Also wish we had 2 X Sam Walsh - 1 to play mid, and 1 on wing. But there will always only be one Sam Walsh. So what is good combination and rotations for midfield?

The other set of questions has to do with coaching. I know nothing of inner workings, but it seems to me with Luke Power taking on midfield responsibilities there has been a change, almost like a 'freeing up'. How much is due to Power's influence? Are there other changes to game-day set-ups we'd like to see moving forward?

Again, apologies if this is the wrong thread. I just see these thoughts in various threads, and I would appreciate some more thoughts in this area of the midfield (including what we might need moving forward). Thanks all

I think Williams has definitely been relegated to HBF for now.
I have no problem playing Walsh on the wing. Yes, he's great in the guts, but he's more than comfortable on the wing and would easily be our best winger. Runs all day, gets to more contests than anyone, knows how to position himself on the outside of stoppages for the releasing handball. Would mean less in and under stuff at centre bounces, but he would still get amongst it around the ground.
Saad, Williams and Newman as rebounding defenders, Walsh and Doc on the wings (Doc will know how to be the extra man back or defend space), and a combination of Cripps, Kennedy, Dow, Setterfield, Stocker, SPS and Curnow in the guts. SPS and Kennedy both capable of rotating through HF.
That still leaves Kemp, Fogarty, Carroll, Fisher, Martin, Cuningham, Ramsay, Gibbons, Cottrell and O'Brien.
Curnow probably doesn't have much left and not convinced Cottrell and O'Brien have what it takes, or that Gibbons will be more than a role player/depth, or that Cunners will ever get over his constant niggles.

 

[FitzroyBlueBagger]

I am giving this thread a 'bump' as I am wondering about midfield going forward. Apologies if it's the wrong thread. But there are a couple of sets of questions for me

What will the midfield look like moving forward? Kennedy's and Dow's recent games, plus Williams spending more time back, makes me wonder about best mix moving forward. Also wish we had 2 X Sam Walsh - 1 to play mid, and 1 on wing. But there will always only be one Sam Walsh. So what is good combination and rotations for midfield?

The other set of questions has to do with coaching. I know nothing of inner workings, but it seems to me with Luke Power taking on midfield responsibilities there has been a change, almost like a 'freeing up'. How much is due to Power's influence? Are there other changes to game-day set-ups we'd like to see moving forward?

Again, apologies if this is the wrong thread. I just see these thoughts in various threads, and I would appreciate some more thoughts in this area of the midfield (including what we might need moving forward). Thanks all

Up until John Barker was moved on Cripps Curnow and Walsh were the preferred mids spending total times between 70%-90% in there between them...

Last year i posted that Cunners was only given 3% time playing in the midfield, few others that were low in time as well, we have been so poor in midfield development in recent times...

Now I’m no coach but that is a ridiculous amount of time to heavily rely on only 3 players, particularly with the type of weaknesses 2 of them have that we get exposed by constantly...

On top of this it has shown that we have failed in this time to strengthen our depth and versatility by ignoring at least a handful of players in Cunners Fisher SPS Dow Kennedy Setterfield having barely in rotation time at all...

Enter Power...
It’s good to see this area has been identified quickly with a shift to spread the load and give a few of our youngsters a chance to show their strengths, hopefully a few more will be given their chances as well...

 

[JustaBattler]

Up until John Barker was moved on Cripps Curnow and Walsh were the preferred mids spending total times between 70%-90% in there between them...

Last year i posted that Cunners was only given 3% time playing in the midfield, few others that were low in time as well, we have been so poor in midfield development in recent times...

Now I’m no coach but that is a ridiculous amount of time to heavily rely on only 3 players, particularly with the type of weaknesses 2 of them have that we get exposed by constantly...

On top of this it has shown that we have failed in this time to strengthen our depth and versatility by ignoring at least a handful of players in Cunners Fisher SPS Dow Kennedy Setterfield having barely in rotation time at all...

Enter Power...
It’s good to see this area has been identified quickly with a shift to spread the load and give a few of our youngsters a chance to show their strengths, hopefully a few more will be given their chances as well...

Good post.

No doubt that for a Club with a plethora of mids - the coaching staff have been 'reluctant' to give players time in their natural positions and developing the talent and depth properly.

I think the more rotations the better - makes the side harder to match up against and develops players faster.

 

[Santo the king]

Cunners before he was injured certainly got more midfield minutes. I thought we looked dynamic with him in there. We lost our way in the midfield a bit after he got injured.

Guttered he was injured. He looked like the missing link in out midfield.

 

[Gethelred]

Cripps as a midfielder is fine, but the amount of CBA he's attending is too high given 6-6-6. Unless he's the ruckman, 6-6-6 has made it so that unless your mids have that quick first step or getting the ball every time they need to be able to chase their direct opponents down and he's just not fast enough quickly enough for it.

Around the ground, when we and our opponents can surround the stoppage, it makes sense to have him in there; he's simply going to be too big and strong in close, and he's able to find an option to give off to. So, start Cripps on a flank or a wing, and tell him to bolt behind the ball the second the ump seeks to bounce the ball; give us an extra almost the second the ball is won/lost, and we still get the benefit of him around the ball. It won't work every time and on the fast break we'd be vulnerable, but it's food for thought.

The other player we need to look at is Walsh. Using him as an inside mid is stupid. Can he do it? Sure; he's about as good at it as Joel Selwood is. But is it our best use of him?

Walsh in his second year was putting up AA wing numbers, but without the 'soft' tag associated with most winger possessions. He'll get forward and take a hit in a marking contest; he'll be the first back if we lose possession; he'll be everywhere, and he'll do the team thing and he'll make the right decision. He needs to be on one of those wings, and he needs to be protected from the inside game, not because he can't do it but because it requires a different set of instincts. Playing inside requires one to learn to take the first option; playing outside requires one to find the best option quickly. They're not at complete odds, but they are different, and we need to decide in which direction we want him to go, and - frankly - we do not need another inside midfielder. We have Kennedy, SPS, Setterfield, Cripps, Philp, Dow, Carroll, Cuningham, Gibbons, Martin, Williams, Jack, and Stocker who all can and have played inside mid at different times in their careers (we're not talking about Murphy and Ed, as Murphy's done this year one would think and Ed could also retire this year or be around for another six; planning for it would be a nightmare). We don't need Walsh in there, because while he's good he's not as good for the team in there, and we need one of the others (Stocker, ahem) to be that player.

So, what does that mean for the CB's? It means that we need tackling ability, (SPS, Kennedy, Setterfield, Walsh, Cripps, Ed, Jack, Stocker, Jack, Martin) speed both off the mark and top speed, (Williams, Dow, Carroll, Cuningham, Philp; if you were to divide it into off the mark speed and top speed, you could add Walsh for top and off the mark for Stocker and Jack, as both players aren't bad off the first few steps) and ball-winning (Cripps, Walsh, Martin, Dow, Ed, Kennedy, Stocker, Carroll, Philp; some of these players haven't done it in seniors, but it was a strength before they were drafted). We can't allow quick breaks without defensive speed, and we can't allow fast, direct clearances from the square; it doesn't give Cripps time to get behind the ball, and it gives them direct access to one on ones inside forward 50, so with that in mind our best CB group is Ed/Kennedy, Martin (when fit!!!) and Dow/Stocker/Carroll/Cuningham; the first two/three for defensive running and tackling, the third to read the taps and to be the receiver, fast enough to hopefully get on the fast break of our own.

And unless you're against Gawn/Grundy/Natanui, I have absolutely zero issue throwing Cripps into a CB as a ruckman; it means you can be more aggressive with your wings, and you have another mid. Provided you're set up well at the ball drop and/or you're not against a top 5 ruckman in the comp, it'd be an interesting experiment to run with and see not whether you win or lose but what types of wins and losses you have from it. If you lose most of the time but the opposition clearance is slow while when we win it's fast and into clean possession, might be a good thing to use going forwards.

 

[FitzroyBlueBagger]

Good post.

No doubt that for a Club with a plethora of mids - the coaching staff have been 'reluctant' to give players time in their natural positions and developing the talent and depth properly.

I think the more rotations the better - makes the side harder to match up against and develops players faster.

Completely agree...

 

[philpinnell15]

great post

Cripps as a midfielder is fine, but the amount of CBA he's attending is too high given 6-6-6. Unless he's the ruckman, 6-6-6 has made it so that unless your mids have that quick first step or getting the ball every time they need to be able to chase their direct opponents down and he's just not fast enough quickly enough for it.

Around the ground, when we and our opponents can surround the stoppage, it makes sense to have him in there; he's simply going to be too big and strong in close, and he's able to find an option to give off to. So, start Cripps on a flank or a wing, and tell him to bolt behind the ball the second the ump seeks to bounce the ball; give us an extra almost the second the ball is won/lost, and we still get the benefit of him around the ball. It won't work every time and on the fast break we'd be vulnerable, but it's food for thought.

The other player we need to look at is Walsh. Using him as an inside mid is stupid. Can he do it? Sure; he's about as good at it as Joel Selwood is. But is it our best use of him?

Walsh in his second year was putting up AA wing numbers, but without the 'soft' tag associated with most winger possessions. He'll get forward and take a hit in a marking contest; he'll be the first back if we lose possession; he'll be everywhere, and he'll do the team thing and he'll make the right decision. He needs to be on one of those wings, and he needs to be protected from the inside game, not because he can't do it but because it requires a different set of instincts. Playing inside requires one to learn to take the first option; playing outside requires one to find the best option quickly. They're not at complete odds, but they are different, and we need to decide in which direction we want him to go, and - frankly - we do not need another inside midfielder. We have Kennedy, SPS, Setterfield, Cripps, Philp, Dow, Carroll, Cuningham, Gibbons, Martin, Williams, Jack, and Stocker who all can and have played inside mid at different times in their careers (we're not talking about Murphy and Ed, as Murphy's done this year one would think and Ed could also retire this year or be around for another six; planning for it would be a nightmare). We don't need Walsh in there, because while he's good he's not as good for the team in there, and we need one of the others (Stocker, ahem) to be that player.

So, what does that mean for the CB's? It means that we need tackling ability, (SPS, Kennedy, Setterfield, Walsh, Cripps, Ed, Jack, Stocker, Jack, Martin) speed both off the mark and top speed, (Williams, Dow, Carroll, Cuningham, Philp; if you were to divide it into off the mark speed and top speed, you could add Walsh for top and off the mark for Stocker and Jack, as both players aren't bad off the first few steps) and ball-winning (Cripps, Walsh, Martin, Dow, Ed, Kennedy, Stocker, Carroll, Philp; some of these players haven't done it in seniors, but it was a strength before they were drafted). We can't allow quick breaks without defensive speed, and we can't allow fast, direct clearances from the square; it doesn't give Cripps time to get behind the ball, and it gives them direct access to one on ones inside forward 50, so with that in mind our best CB group is Ed/Kennedy, Martin (when fit!!!) and Dow/Stocker/Carroll/Cuningham; the first two/three for defensive running and tackling, the third to read the taps and to be the receiver, fast enough to hopefully get on the fast break of our own.

And unless you're against Gawn/Grundy/Natanui, I have absolutely zero issue throwing Cripps into a CB as a ruckman; it means you can be more aggressive with your wings, and you have another mid. Provided you're set up well at the ball drop and/or you're not against a top 5 ruckman in the comp, it'd be an interesting experiment to run with and see not whether you win or lose but what types of wins and losses you have from it. If you lose most of the time but the opposition clearance is slow while when we win it's fast and into clean possession, might be a good thing to use going forwards.

great post mate - you should have johnny barkers job
we really get shown up at the CB - although hopefully Power will improve things
it makes massive sense for walshy to stay on the wing - no one runs like he can
it's ok to be a bit defensive and jamb it up in there - kennedy, ed, setters - dow can evade and i haven't given up on williams - he can move and kicks it well
i get frustrated with the media attack "play them in their right positions" - you can't play 7 in the guts - but you can rotate them through there
and they are elite athletes - if they can't adapt to some wing & HF time - and some run with roles dare i say - then they won't be A graders
i thought setters was really going well last year - but if he sooked up because he went to the wing ( i agree not ideal for him) then he has to get over it
pretty sure young stocker doesn't love back pocket but watch him go
the bulldogs have about 40 mid fielders but they play well on wings and flanks
can't believe the week williams had from the press - yea he's paid too much (they all are) and he could be fitter, but he's more often than not in our best 8 - and he's got a bit of sh!t in him................ need more of that
dunno about SPS - too bruise free - too many one arm efforts for mine - martin is gunna be a drifter in and outer - fish - mmmmmmmmmm dunno?
carroll sounds like a player - i hope a few more get a few games in the next month - honey, carroll, ramsey et al

 

[Ash24]

I am giving this thread a 'bump' as I am wondering about midfield going forward. Apologies if it's the wrong thread. But there are a couple of sets of questions for me

What will the midfield look like moving forward? Kennedy's and Dow's recent games, plus Williams spending more time back, makes me wonder about best mix moving forward. Also wish we had 2 X Sam Walsh - 1 to play mid, and 1 on wing. But there will always only be one Sam Walsh. So what is good combination and rotations for midfield?

The other set of questions has to do with coaching. I know nothing of inner workings, but it seems to me with Luke Power taking on midfield responsibilities there has been a change, almost like a 'freeing up'. How much is due to Power's influence? Are there other changes to game-day set-ups we'd like to see moving forward?

Again, apologies if this is the wrong thread. I just see these thoughts in various threads, and I would appreciate some more thoughts in this area of the midfield (including what we might need moving forward). Thanks all

I was heavily criticising Teague in the first half of this year for our 'one-dimensional' midfield. At pretty much every centre bounce and stoppage, we'd have Cripps, Curnow and Walsh.

What I've loved over the last month or so is how we've become less dependant on Ed, and moved Walsh a bit more through the wing. That's lead onto a flow-on effect of more opportunity and improved performances from Dow, Kennedy and Samo.

Moving forward I think we should stay with what is working. I'm hoping that Stocker can soon take over from Curnow and move into a 50-50 split between defence and midfield. Cripps, Walsh, Dow and Kennedy should be spending about 3/4 of game time on-ball, and the rest either on a wing or up forward. That leaves Cunners and Martin who will start in the forward line, but rotate through the midfield allowing for lots of diversity and an interesting mix (similar to the Bulldogs).


M - Docherty // Cripps // Petrevski-Seton
FOL - De Koning // Dow // Walsh
HF - Martin // Curnow // Cuningham

I/C - Kennedy

* Can Fisher provide a chop out for SPS on a wing?