The MM decade.

[loki04]

Going on from a post on the main board where a few Collingwood fans have rated us on par with the flag winning teams of WC, Hawks and early decade Essendon ect over the decade for on field success.

Collingwood - On field 6/10
West Coast - On field 6/10
Essendon - On field 4/10
Adelaide - On field 5.5/10
Hawthorn - On field 7/10

Wanting Peoples thoughts on the decade that has gone interesting to see people rate it on field as good as teams who have won a flag in the same period.

My reply to some oppo fans who disagree with rating our last decade the equal of say a WC.

Would totally agree, funny how people see things.

A lot of pies supporters see MM reign as a successful one to a degree they are correct, in terms of being competitive and making the finals more often then not.

But for others it's been a failure no point making finals so often with nothing to show for it.

I sit somewhere in between, as in we have been a competitive club without achieving ultimate success which is why we play footy in the end.

Where do you rate Collingwood in terms of on field success over the last decade and is MM's performance tied to it in terms of rating his decade as coach.

I tend to lean both ways as in he was successful in turning the club into a very competitive unit and brought about a new professionalism to the club which hadn't been seen.
On the other hand we have not won a flag, our game plan is heavily suspect and selection policy leaves a lot to be desired including the non dropping of unperforming players.

I realise MM still has time to win a flag and this isn't a bash MM thread I am looking for genuine answers to how you rate this decade on field as a) a club and b) where Malthouse coaching ties to it.

Just very interesting to see people rate it as successful as a team who won a flag.

 

[soreplums]

finished ahead of carlton 7 out of 10 times
carlton won more spoons
6 finals series
two grand finals
two prelim finals lost to teams who went on to win the flag.
2nd round of finals once
first round knock out once

finished ahead of carlton 7/10 times
finished ahead of carlton 7/10 times
finsihed ahead of carlton 7/10 times
carlton won more spoons
carlton won more spoons

He has been good for us. Has been great developing some of our players. Doubt many other coaches could have brought into the club what he has. If he wins a flag in the next two years it would be a successful reign in my opinion.

 

[thebaldfacts]

If you rate the flag as the be all and end all, then you would rate MM's reign as unsuccessful.

However, if you accept that premierships are hard to win and require luck with injuries, suspensions and results going your way, then you require a different metric. Would the Pies have won in 02 or 03 with Cloke and Rocca? Would the Swans have won in 05 if Hall had not gotten off? Would Essendon have won in 2001 if they did not limp into that final with so many injuries? Would Brisbane have won in 2003 if the Swans did not upset port in the Qualyfing final, forcing them into a AAMI final prelim?

The easiest way to rate a decade is to see how often you go deep into September (Prelim or GF). Over a decade, there are 40 teams playing deep into September. On average, you can expect to play 2.5 times a decade deep into September. MM has achieved this 4 times in the past 8 years and that to me says that he has been successful in his time at Collingwood. Yes the ultimate has eluded him, but 4 times deep into September in a decade tells me he is doing something right.

 

[MarkT2]

MM has a win/loss record around 50%. He has reached but failed in 2 grand finals and a prelim. and his side failed to get near the best teams when it mattered in the last 2 years when they had opportunities.

It's a pass and no more. As such he has been retained too long. A pass isn't good enough with the resources we have. It is hard to imagine anyone lasting more than a decade as coach of one side without a flag. I doubt it has ever happened or ever will again. That says a fair bit about the president of you ask me. He chased and appointed him and has supported him to the hilt without getting the result.

You can't balme the list or the development after a decade.

 

[loki04]

finished ahead of carlton 7 out of 10 times
carlton won more spoons
6 finals series
two grand finals
two prelim finals lost to teams who went on to win the flag.
2nd round of finals once
first round knock out once

finished ahead of carlton 7/10 times
finished ahead of carlton 7/10 times
finsihed ahead of carlton 7/10 times
carlton won more spoons
carlton won more spoons

He has been good for us. Has been great developing some of our players. Doubt many other coaches could have brought into the club what he has. If he wins a flag in the next two years it would be a successful reign in my opinion.

If MM wins a flag it will be in his 2nd decade at the club ie his 11th and 12th years and will set another new record.

So how do you rate the decade gone?

Not just MM but on field as a club? success or not? or a bit both?

Do people think we were as successful on field as West Coast, Essendon, Hawthorn, Sydney and Port over the decade gone?

 

[loki04]

If you rate the flag as the be all and end all, then you would rate MM's reign as unsuccessful.

However, if you accept that premierships are hard to win and require luck with injuries, suspensions and results going your way, then you require a different metric. Would the Pies have won in 02 or 03 with Cloke and Rocca? Would the Swans have won in 05 if Hall had not gotten off? Would Essendon have won in 2001 if they did not limp into that final with so many injuries? Would Brisbane have won in 2003 if the Swans did not upset port in the Qualyfing final, forcing them into a AAMI final prelim?

The easiest way to rate a decade is to see how often you go deep into September (Prelim or GF). Over a decade, there are 40 teams playing deep into September. On average, you can expect to play 2.5 times a decade deep into September. MM has achieved this 4 times in the past 8 years and that to me says that he has been successful in his time at Collingwood. Yes the ultimate has eluded him, but 4 times deep into September in a decade tells me he is doing something right.

How do you think the club on field stacks up in terms of on field success vs Premiership winning sides?

This is not just about MM but rather what people consider to be a successful decade as a whole.

 

[mattys123]

The decade over all was a failure, and ultimately MM has to take the blame for that, but damn he was unlucky.

If we got the last goal in 2002, no Collingwood supporter would question MM's tenure as Collingwood coach. Then Rocca got rubbed out for 2 weeks for what you would get a reprimand for now, and missed the 03 GF.

MM got us closer to a flag then Tony Shaw as coach ever dreamed of, and he will have two more shots.

Ultimately though, the "naughties" were not a successful era for the Collingwood Football Club.

Here's hoping the "Teens" are better for us.

 

[thebaldfacts]

How do you think the club on field stacks up in terms of on field success vs Premiership winning sides?

This is not just about MM but rather what people consider to be a successful decade as a whole.

Loki,

I would rate it as successful period for collingwood, albeit with no premiership success.

Following is each teams performance in terms of going deep (prelim or GF)into September;

4 times:

Brisbane - 3 flags
Geelong - 2 flags
Port - 1 flag
Collingwood - 0 flags
St.Kilda - 0 flags

3 times:

Sydney - 1 flag
Adelaide - 0 flags

2 times:

Essendon - 1 flag
Hawthorn - 1 flag
West Coast - 1 flag
North - 0 flags
Bulldogs - 0 flags

1 time:

Richmond - 0 Flags
Melbourne - 0 flags
Carlton - 0 flags

Based on the above, I would rate us as the 4th most succesful team of the decade. Would love a flag, but as can be seen, we were one of the 5 teams to go deep into September 4 times. unforunately we were 1 of the 2 teams that could not snare a flag.

 

[soreplums]

If MM wins a flag it will be in his 2nd decade at the club ie his 11th and 12th years and will set another new record.

So how do you rate the decade gone?

Not just MM but on field as a club? success or not? or a bit both?

Do people think we were as successful on field as West Coast, Essendon, Hawthorn, Sydney and Port over the decade gone?

true, but if he wins one in his 11th or 12th year you have to credit the work he has done in the last decade to build towards it.

 

[loki04]

Loki,

I would rate it as successful period for collingwood, albeit with no premiership success.

Following is each teams performance in terms of going deep (prelim or GF)into September;


Based on the above, I would rate us as the 4th most succesful team of the decade. Would love a flag, but as can be seen, we were one of the 5 teams to go deep into September 4 times. unforunately we were 1 of the 2 teams that could not snare a flag.

I can see your point but I disagree any team who managed to win a flag has had real success over a non flag winner, I agree with Mattys that MM and the 02 team was very very unlucky not to have a flag.

But facts are we didn't win one and since 03 we have not really been close (arguably 07 but with our ruck setup we were not going to win and Geelong's inaccuracy kept us in it) despite making prelims.

Last few years we have been spanked in finals as with 06, young side and injuries understandably so.

Also weighted into how I would rank them is minor premier tallys, something we have not achieved not the be all and end all but none the less seeing your team win week in week out counts for something.

This if were to do a ladder is how i would rank the teams this decade.

Brisbane - 3 flags
Geelong - 2 flags
Port - 1 flag
Sydney - 1 flag
Essendon - 1 flag
West Coast - 1 flag
Hawthorn - 1 flag

Collingwood - 0 flags
St.Kilda - 0 flags
Adelaide - 0 flags
North - 0 flags
Bulldogs - 0 flags
Melbourne - 0 flags
Richmond - 0 Flags
Carlton - 0 flags


I would argue we are the most successful non flag winning team.

 

[knightwheelrqr]

Pretty solid period. Not disappointed but not delighted.

Have a strong list going into the 10s with plenty of young talent comming up.

The big thing for me is the notable improvement in the drafting and player development areas which even in the early 00s was a little suspect.

I'd rate it 6/10.

 

[thebaldfacts]

I can see your point but I disagree any team who managed to win a flag has had real success over a non flag winner, I agree with Mattys that MM and the 02 team was very very unlucky not to have a flag.

But facts are we didn't win one and since 03 we have not really been close (arguably 07 but with our ruck setup we were not going to win and Geelong's inaccuracy kept us in it) despite making prelims.

Last few years we have been spanked in finals as with 06, young side and injuries understandably so.

Also weighted into how I would rank them is minor premier tallys, something we have not achieved not the be all and end all but none the less seeing your team win week in week out counts for something.

This if were to do a ladder is how i would rank the teams this decade.

Brisbane - 3 flags
Geelong - 2 flags
Port - 1 flag
Sydney - 1 flag
Essendon - 1 flag
West Coast - 1 flag
Hawthorn - 1 flag

Collingwood - 0 flags
St.Kilda - 0 flags
Adelaide - 0 flags
North - 0 flags
Bulldogs - 0 flags
Melbourne - 0 flags
Richmond - 0 Flags
Carlton - 0 flags


I would argue we are the most successful non flag winning team.

Guess it all comes down to your definiton of success.
Who is more successful, a team that finishes runner up 10 years in a row or a team that wins 9 wooden spoons in a row and 1 flag in the other?

To me, it is consistency of performance and hopefully a flag may come, but as i said, you need luck in terms of injuries, suspensions and who you get to play at what time.

 

[Gary2010]

Could have easily had 2 flags, 2002 and 2007 we came within a bees dick, there is an element of luck in a 9 point Grand Final and a 5 point preliminary final, and luck has never been our strong suit, hopefully it changes in the future and Dame Fortune relents.

 

[Grumpy Bum]

Being consistant and thereabouts is not what AFL football is all about, I'd rather trawl to bottom of the ladder if it meant we would rise to the very top.

MM has not the ability to take a list to the very top given his game plan and recruiting priorities and list management.

Its a pity, because this list is still lacking in some areas and as we found out, presti was found wanting in the finals and thats another area we really need to step up and find a ready made replacement seeing as N Brown seems to be having issues. The key forward structure is a shambles with Cloke not knowing how to play as a key forward, roaming far and wide to collect cheap kicks and when he does have an opportunity to kick easy goals, fluffs them. Anthony is not a key forward but will be a good foil as a 3rd option, so really, the forward line is really needing some direction.

 

[On the March]

We did well but we could do so much better