The more things change...

[Drugs Are Bad Mackay?]

Great games from McLeod and Edwards on the weekend. Goodwin pretty damn good as well. The old reliable hands leading from the front.

Is the equation still that simple for the AFC?

(McLeod + Edwards + Goodwin) x Good Games = Crows Win

Anything else = Crows Lose

We've been swept up in the great form of Bernie Vince and our rookies' impressive beginning but we should not ignore that, again, it was our three champions who paved the way.

Have we developed to the stage that the output of Goodwin, McLeod and Edwards is a bonus? The icing on the cake, so to speak. Or is it still something that we heavily rely upon and without we cannot win?

There are a lot of unknowns with our side at the moment. Who do St Kilda tag this week? Who are the barometers? Who are the initiators?

Which players get brought into the game by other players? Which players bring others into the game?

Assuming that the three of them cannot keep up the form or fitness for the full 22 matches - as they couldn't last year - do we have enough good younger players around them to mount a serious challenge? Or is our 2009 season as fragile as McLeod's knee or Goodwin's back?

 

[cmndstab]

I like to think that there are three stages - one that we've been at for years, one that we're at now, and one that we will need to be to challenge for a premiership in the near future.


Stage 1 - We require our guns to be competitive. We've been at this stage for years, with the big names leading the way. If we didn't get a strong output from most of McLeod, Goodwin, Ricciuto, Clarke, Hart, Edwards etc, we didn't tend to win matches. Massive difference from our top tier players to the lower tier.

Stage 2 - We are certainly poorer without the big names of Edwards, Goodwin and McLeod in our side, but we're not a rabble without them. They are probably the difference between close wins and losses (almost certainly would have been the case against Collingwood).

Stage 3 - We have a squad ready to fill the void left by the huge names, with some youngsters reaching the elite status. Names like Vince and Van Berlo are close, whether they make the jump is yet to be seen. Bock is already there. Some of our youngsters (such as the five that played on the weekend) show potential but are still a way away.


I think we are definitely well into stage 2 by now and probably have been for a year or two. Stage 3 is hopefully itself only a year or two away.

 

[Crow-mo]

Carl,

you are right, obviously. but who wants to hear that? we still do NOT win, without our senior, senior, pensioned off, players leading the way.

though Vince WAS spectacular on the weekend.

 

[Crow-mo]

Stage 3 - We have a squad ready to fill the void left by the huge names, with some youngsters reaching the elite status. Names like Vince and Van Berlo are close, whether they make the jump is yet to be seen. Bock is already there. Some of our youngsters (such as the five that played on the weekend) show potential but are still a way away.

Van Berlo isn't yet close to elite, Vince maybe one day, and Bock does not play a premium position.

thompson is the guy who will fill someone's shoes first, if he hasn't already.

 

[spexau]

The oldies did play well on Saturday but when the game was there to be won in the fourth quarter our youngsters stood up I felt. Douglas' spoil, Porps bit of magic. I don't particuarly thing that McLeod, Goodwin or Edwards had a huge impact in the last quarter. Sure they helped set up the win but I think we can win when they don't fire.

 

[Cap]

Agree with Thompson being on the verge of elite, I also think your down playing the role of Bock, how is CHB not a premium role especially given the way he plays it?

Johncock and Rutten are also becoming out top tier player weather that is a good sign or not they still are.

I think our furutre relies heavily on the development of Vince, Van Berlo, Douglas and Porplyzia of these 4 1 has to end up being an out and out champion. That would leave Mackay, Dangerfield, Otten, Cook, Petnrenko to fill the the other 3 possies (i'm talking about replacing the Big 4 not just the big 3).

Personally we need a tippet or Walker to become a superstar i'd much prefer 3 star midfielder and 1 star forward.

 

[Ad76]

I think the truth is that we're part way through.

Going back a couple of years the question was how will we cope without the big 4, and to a lesser extent Hart and Bassett.

At that stage the side wouldnt have held its ground without one or two of them, let alone all 4.

Fast forward a few years and we're already coping without Roo, and I recon we could hold our own without another one of them now too (take your pick).

You cant replace champions overnight, but i recon we've got 'em about 1/2 way covered.

 

[Damp Squarie]

The fact that we made the eight last year with top seasons from Bock,VB and Thommo suggests we have a new old gaurd on the rise.

As spexau said "The oldies did play well on Saturday but when the game was there to be won in the fourth quarter our youngsters stood up I felt."

...and I agree, it was a solid team effort that won it - no passengers really

 

[Crow-mo]

Agree with Thompson being on the verge of elite, I also think your down playing the role of Bock, how is CHB not a premium role especially given the way he plays it?

chb is the least important KPP by so far its not funny.

who are the other great CHB's out there, and lets not try and include FB's.

Johncock and Rutten are also becoming out top tier player weather that is a good sign or not they still are.

johncock? have you forgotten 2008?

I think our furutre relies heavily on the development of Vince, Van Berlo, Douglas and Porplyzia of these 4 1 has to end up being an out and out champion. That would leave Mackay, Dangerfield, Otten, Cook, Petnrenko to fill the the other 3 possies (i'm talking about replacing the Big 4 not just the big 3).

Personally we need a tippet or Walker to become a superstar i'd much prefer 3 star midfielder and 1 star forward.

yeah pretty much agree with this.

 

[Mego Red]

chb is the least important KPP by so far its not funny.

who are the other great CHB's out there, and lets not try and include FB's.

Look - broadly this is probably true. Not many defenders on the list of the AFL's 100 greatest players.

But Bock isn't Trent Croad or Daniel Merrett. He is an enormously attacking presence in the half back line. I think he is superceding the traditional limitations of the position and is becoming an elite AFL footballer.

 

[Cap]

chb is the least important KPP by so far its not funny.

who are the other great CHB's out there, and lets not try and include FB's.

I guess you have a point and you've got me in two minds, what do you think Bocks role would be in the crows sans Rutten?

Rutten in reality allows bock the freedom of what he does he always takes the Browns and Halls of the comp.

I was going to compare having Bock to the Eagles of the 90's with Jackovic as their CHB but that is different because he took the No.1 Forward.

I guess if we look at Bock as a player and not just as a CHB the influence he has in the defence is prety high given his size and ability to run a lot. I still think he is within the first 5 players picked.

johncock? have you forgotten 2008?

I am putting this down to a once off - everyone needs a bad year, he just had a shocker .

But I have faith that he will resume his position and one of the best small defenders in the league.

 

[Drugs Are Bad Mackay?]

The equation rings true again.

Edwards - Good
Goodwin - Ok
McLeod - Poor

Crows lose.

Nothing else matters.

 

[jo172]

Yes, when our three best and most experienced players play well our chances of winning increase.

I think you'll see a fair bit of that around in the AFL ...

 

[jamesclean]

what? those 3 players don't do as well when our team gets pumped?!

...no?!?!

 

[hendo8888]

Name any other team in the competition that doesn't rely on their best players to win?
Without Ablett, Bartel and Corey, even Geelong would be just a reasonably good team with a crap forward line.
Without Franklin, Hodge and Mitchell, Hawthorn would struggle to win games.
Take out Judd, Cousins and Cox from their Premiership year and West Coast wouldn't have made the Grand Final let alone won it.
If Dal Santo, Kosi and Gram didn't play like they did last night, we would have more than likely won.

 

[Drugs Are Bad Mackay?]

Yes, when our three best and most experienced players play well our chances of winning increase.

I think you'll see a fair bit of that around in the AFL ...

Name any other team in the competition that doesn't rely on their best players to win?
Without Ablett, Bartel and Corey, even Geelong would be just a reasonably good team with a crap forward line.
Without Franklin, Hodge and Mitchell, Hawthorn would struggle to win games.
Take out Judd, Cousins and Cox from their Premiership year and West Coast wouldn't have made the Grand Final let alone won it.
If Dal Santo, Kosi and Gram didn't play like they did last night, we would have more than likely won.

Out of the five teams mentioned, I've underlined the 30+ year olds:-

Geelong - Ablett, Bartel, Corey
Hawthorn - Franklin, Hodge, Mitchell
West Coast (2006) - Judd, Cousins, Cox
St Kilda - Dal Santo, Koschitzke, Gram
Adelaide - Edwards, Goodwin, McLeod

Without wanting to join the dots too much for people...

Our three guns are no longer in their prime. Their ability to influence the play week-in week-out is no longer there.

But they are still our best players.

So what does that mean for us as a club?

 

[jo172]

Out of the five teams mentioned, I've underlined the 30+ year olds:-

Geelong - Ablett, Bartel, Corey
Hawthorn - Franklin, Hodge, Mitchell
West Coast (2006) - Judd, Cousins, Cox
St Kilda - Dal Santo, Koschitzke, Gram
Adelaide - Edwards, Goodwin, McLeod

Without wanting to join the dots too much for people...

Our three guns are no longer in their prime. Their ability to influence the play week-in week-out is no longer there.

But they are still our best players.

So what does that mean for us as a club?

It means where going through a stage of blooding new blokes like Dangerfield and Petrenko along with slightly older like Knights and Vince and allowing them to step up to the mantle. We're clearly in a rebuilding phase. Let them build!

Also, the real issue is the drafting in the Ayres era. We just don't have the 25-26 year old players playing. From last night Bock is, Rutten is and Reilly is. Most blokes drafted in the Ayres era just didn't go on to be great footy players for us and that is why we've got 30 yo stars and 19-22 yo up and comers but very little in between.