The murder of Gary Abdallah

[MaddAdam]

While Cliff Lockwood was acquitted of the murder of Gary Abdallah, there is no doubt SOMEBODY murdered the man.

We don't do extra judicial killing (officially) in Australia but as no arguing what happened to Abdallah was cold blooded murder.

Should double jeapordy laws in Victoria be rescinded as the Baiilieu govt says it will, should Lockwood be brought back to trial for this case?

Interesting summary from Andrew Rule here:

http://www.theage.com.au/victoria/the-real-animal-kingdom-20110211-1aqnn.html

 

[Hard_to_Beat]

Yep, a bloke that was on record as being in fear of his life from Vic Police pulled an imitation pistol on two armed policemen.

Seems perfectly logical to me.

 

[MaddAdam]

Yep, a bloke that was on record as being in fear of his life from Vic Police pulled an imitation pistol on two armed policemen.

Seems perfectly logical to me.

Baillieu was all gung ho on doing away with double jeapordy. It has been done in England and Wales and Scotland a few other places and despite reservations about it, seems to work well given the advances in technology. In fact, I thinbk DNA and technology advances are seeing more innocent people freed and double jeapordy being taken away will only really mean the guilty who skated will suffer.

However it has been suggested to me that Ted is going slow in double jeapordy because senior VicPol members are very concerned that Cliffy boy would first up and that a murder conviction in the case would create quite legitimate calls for compo from his family and open up a whole sack of stinky cats about the allegations (truth in my view) that the VicPol ran a Brazilian style death squad in the late 1980s and early 1990s.

 

[Hard_to_Beat]

Turn it up DOP.

Surely VicPol would be chomping at the bit to bring all of these (hypothetical) corrupt policemen to justice!!!!!

Are you suggesting that the police are above the law?!!!

Are you suggesting that VicPol knowingly engage in "damage control" so that they can place the protection of their image above the interests of justice?!!!

Were you born wearing a tin foil hat?!!!!

 

[Jade's]

Turn it up DOP.

Surely VicPol would be chomping at the bit to bring all of these (hypothetical) corrupt policemen to justice!!!!!

Are you suggesting that the police are above the law?!!! Are you suggesting that VicPol knowingly engage in "damage control" so that they can place their image above the interests of justice?!!!

Were you born wearing a tin foil hat?!!!!

Did you get busted by corrupt police when you went to the can HTB?

 

[MaddAdam]

Turn it up DOP.

Surely VicPol would be chomping at the bit to bring all of these (hypothetical) corrupt policemen to justice!!!!!

Are you suggesting that the police are above the law?!!!

Are you suggesting that VicPol knowingly engage in "damage control" so that they can place their image above the interests of justice?!!!

Were you born wearing a tin foil hat?!!!!

I know, I'm crazy.

I'm sure I've told you the story about the senior Brit detective sent to "assist" the Vic Police a few years back?

 

[Chief]

Turn it up DOP.

Surely VicPol would be chomping at the bit to bring all of these (hypothetical) corrupt policemen to justice!

Just as, say, the Catholic Church would be champing at the bit to have child abusers prosecuted?

 

[MaddAdam]

Just as, say, the Catholic Church would be champing at the bit to have child abusers prosecuted?

A very, very apt analogy. But the Victoria Police and the Catholic Church have their own internal operations that they see as being outside the "normal law" that applies to mugs like you and me.

Though I get the feeling that the Royal Commission is going make life very difficult for the Church.

One of the key points that will be hammered home time and gtime again is that canon law is subordinate to civil and criminal law.

Whether the same can be done to an organisation like VicPol is another matter.

I forget the lame Latin quotation but it translates to "who watches the watchmen?"

Who polices the police? The police themselves would like us to think they do it themselves perfectly well.

I'd argue the VicPol are as successful at self regulation as say, the British financial sector in the 2000s.

 

[Flawed Genius]

I know, I'm crazy.

I'm sure I've told you the story about the senior Brit detective sent to "assist" the Vic Police a few years back?

Do go on.

 

[MaddAdam]

Just as, say, the Catholic Church would be champing at the bit to have child abusers prosecuted?

We can add the AFL into the list of "self policing" organisations that take matters that would normally be dealt with by a criminal court - assault, drug use etc - and "deal with it internally".

I think the flog JamieJohnstone wrote on this for you recently ...?

 

[MaddAdam]

Do go on.

Short version is this.

I worked with a very senior cop in Britain on a few stories. Good bloke. We became mates.

One day he says: "What are the cops in Melbourne like? Tell me honestly, no fear or favour."

I say, basically, corrupt scum. Give him a few names and events to Google. Few days later he says "Let's meet for a beer"

Thanks me for the links. Tells me that a few months back the Vic police had sent a message to the Brits saying (this is in the time of the gangland shootings and the drug squad being disbanded etc) "We're ****ed, can you send some people who 100 per cent clean to help us clean ourselves up?"

So my mate goes to an ambitious young detective and says "Fancy a few years in Melbourne?" Detective leaps at the chance - move to Oz for a bit and these days in the oig pen, if you want to really rise up the ranks to like Commissioner and s**t, they like the whole international experience thing. So off trots this talented and ambitious young British copper.

Two months later he calls the boss. Says "I'm going to be home tomorrow, I need my old job back, I will explain when I get there".

He duly arrives home and says "They are so corrupt and dirty down there it is unbelievable. And they are so tight with each other that I have no doubt they'd kill to protect their own. And that includes me. Bugger that, not worth it ..."

And the detective in question came from a force that wasn't some rural catch a cattle rustler now and then operation, it was from a big well known city with a pretty hectic scene of its own.

When I heard that story, I was like "Holy crap, I knew they were bad, but that's just breathtaking".

 

[CAS79]

Can we please keep discussion of any police corruption to the context of this case provided and the reasons Ted may or may not run double jeopardy changes to the SCP board, cheers.

 

[MC Extra Dollop]

While Cliff Lockwood was acquitted of the murder of Gary Abdallah, there is no doubt SOMEBODY murdered the man.

Eh...? As far as I know, there's absolutely no dispute that Lockwood caused the death. What was in dispute was whether it was murder, or self-defence. Lockwood was officially acquitted, nearly 20 years ago.

A lot of things about Lockwood's story cause suspicion. But I'm with their version on the seven bullets. If Lockwood has killed an unarmed man in a pre-meditated act, I find it hard to believe that it would take him seven shots (and considering where it occurred, he was probably no more than 5m away), unless he was firing in a blind panic, or that he wouldn't have made sure Abdallah was dead (he died in hospital six weeks later)...there's really not much difference between seven bullets and ten, in the grand scheme of things, certainly not as much as there is between six and seven. Lockwood goes up to the apartment with Abdallah, kills him instantly with four shots, tosses the replica pistol to Abdallah and is probably cleared of any wrongdoing before dinnertime.

Also, from what I've read, Lockwood (with or without assistance from Avon) would have had no trouble framing Abdallah with a real gun, if he'd wanted to. Why only a replica? The other thing is Avon. Surely Lockwood, going to that apartment with bad intentions, would have wanted to be more circumspect than bringing a potential 'wildcard' like Avon, a man who even tried to revive Abdallah after he was shot (and presumably helped prolong his life for those extra weeks).

 

[MaddAdam]

Can we please keep discussion of any police corruption to the context of this case provided and the reasons Ted may or may not run double jeopardy changes to the SCP board, cheers.

As I said, it is my belief that this case is the exact reason that Baillieu is going soft on the double jeapordy thing.

What happened to Gary Abdallah was murder - he was made to kneel against a wall and shot seven times at point blank range.

His murderer is still free.

 

[MaddAdam]

Eh...? As far as I know, there's absolutely no dispute that Lockwood caused the death. What was in dispute was whether it was murder, or self-defence. Lockwood was officially acquitted, nearly 20 years ago.

A lot of things about Lockwood's story cause suspicion. But I'm with their version on the seven bullets. If Lockwood has killed an unarmed man in a pre-meditated act, I find it hard to believe that it would take him seven shots (and considering where it occurred, he was probably no more than 5m away), unless he was firing in a blind panic, or that he wouldn't have made sure Abdallah was dead (he died in hospital six weeks later)...there's really not much difference between seven bullets and ten, in the grand scheme of things, certainly not as much as there is between six and seven. Lockwood goes up to the apartment with Abdallah, kills him instantly with four shots, tosses the replica pistol to Abdallah and is probably cleared of any wrongdoing before dinnertime.

Also, from what I've read, Lockwood (with or without assistance from Avon) would have had no trouble framing Abdallah with a real gun, if he'd wanted to. Why only a replica? The other thing is Avon. Surely Lockwood, going to that apartment with bad intentions, would have wanted to be more circumspect than bringing a potential 'wildcard' like Avon, a man who even tried to revive Abdallah after he was shot (and presumably helped prolong his life for those extra weeks).

I have a bridge in Sydney - real tourist attraction kind of thing, could be worth a mint - that I need to sell urgently.

Would you be interested in purchasing it from me?

The Victoria Police murdered Gary Abdallah because he was mates with the blokes who whacked two of their own at Walsh Street.

Plain and simple as that.

While it has gentrified beyond recognition there's still a few streets in Flemington where the name Cliff Lockwood is spat with the venom it deserves.

 

[CAS79]

As I said, it is my belief that this case is the exact reason that Baillieu is going soft on the double jeapordy thing.

What happened to Gary Abdallah was murder - he was made to kneel against a wall and shot seven times at point blank range.

His murderer is still free.

So be it, it's pointed out clearly on the board guidelines that this board is not the place to discuss political issues around the law of cases. Whatever the reason Double Jeopardy is a political issue and the SCP remains the place for that.

 

[MaddAdam]

So be it, it's pointed out clearly on the board guidelines that this board is not the place to discuss political issues around the law of cases. Whatever the reason Double Jeopardy is a political issue and the SCP remains the place for that.

Fair enough.

 

[MC Extra Dollop]

I have a bridge in Sydney - real tourist attraction kind of thing, could be worth a mint - that I need to sell urgently.

Would you be interested in purchasing it from me?

The Victoria Police murdered Gary Abdallah because he was mates with the blokes who whacked two of their own at Walsh Street.

Plain and simple as that.

While it has gentrified beyond recognition there's still a few streets in Flemington where the name Cliff Lockwood is spat with the venom it deserves.

Thanks for taking the time to explain it to us nuffies. Just hop off that high horse for a second, champ.

As I understand it, this board classifies all its threads by how they were judged (or not judged) in court. Walsh Street is still considered 'unsolved', the Kennedy assasinations and the Chamberlain case are considered 'solved'. Pretty easy concept to follow.

But instead of starting a thread called 'The death of Gary Abdallah' and presenting exactly the same information about the case, you seem to be obsessed about showing how clever and connected you are with practically every local, national and international crime that has been mentioned on here. And when anyone pulls you up on it, you have a sook. It's laughable.

I don't know if Lockwood is guilty or innocent. I've presented what I think are some very reasonable questions for discussion, something I thought you, as the creator of the thread, might welcome. How could a detective (presumably well trained in firearms), knowing exactly what he intended to do and having a defenceless and presumably subdued target at very close range, take seven shots and still not manage to kill the victim immediately? If you don't want to discuss the different possibilities, when creating a thread with such an inflammatory title, what is your purpose, besides the aforementioned showing everyone how clever and 'on the inside' you are?

 

[Hard_to_Beat]

Just as, say, the Catholic Church would be champing at the bit to have child abusers prosecuted?

Very much so.

I have a bridge in Sydney - real tourist attraction kind of thing, could be worth a mint - that I need to sell urgently.

Would you be interested in purchasing it from me?

The Victoria Police murdered Gary Abdallah because he was mates with the blokes who whacked two of their own at Walsh Street.

Plain and simple as that.

While it has gentrified beyond recognition there's still a few streets in Flemington where the name Cliff Lockwood is spat with the venom it deserves.

Running over the son of a high ranking policeman probably didn't positively promote Garys longevity factor.

 

[footy75]

until another policeman who was at the scene comes out and actually tells the truth will we ever know exactly what happened....

 

[Chief]

Can we get some background in the OP? Not everyone is familiar with this case.

 

[MC Extra Dollop]

Can we get some background in the OP? Not everyone is familiar with this case.

In the mid-late 80s, there was a feeling among criminals (particularly armed robbers) that police practically had a licence to kill them. There were damning statistics regarding the number of criminals shot by police in a relatively short period, something like Victoria having several more of these shootings than the rest of the country put together. This all came to a head when an armed robber and escapee named Graeme Jensen was shot dead by police as he was parked in an outer suburban shopping strip (from memory he wanted to buy a spark plug for a lawn mower). The death of Jensen was highly questioned, with many suggesting that a gun was planted in his car after the fact.

Anyway, a group of criminals decided that this was the last straw. They had entered into a pact to murder two police for every criminal that was shot dead by the armed robbery squad. That night, these criminals committed the Walsh Street murders, leaving a car in the middle of the road in South Yarra and murdering the two police sent to investigate (who, as expected, had nothing to do with the death of Jensen). Eventually, the group charged with these murders was acquitted, after the star witness (wife of the ringleader and secret lover of Jensen) changed her story and took a perjury conviction to free her husband and his mates.

I don't know the exact timeline and whether this occurred before or after the rest of the group was arrested, but two other members of the gang, Jedd Houghton and Gary Abdallah, were also killed by police. Houghton was shot dead in a caravan park, another questionable police killing, due (IIRC) to the fact that his girlfriend, who knew almost nothing of the crimes he'd committed, was in the caravan and potentially in the line of fire. The story about Gary Abdallah (who was supposed to have provided stolen cars for the gang) is well summed up in the link in the OP. The main aspect of the story is that people believe there is no way he would pull a fake gun on armed police when he'd already been arrested, which was the detective's explanation for killing him. As far as I'm concerned, there's fair arguments for both possibilities.

 

[Illinois Nazi]

While Cliff Lockwood was acquitted of the murder of Gary Abdallah, there is no doubt SOMEBODY murdered the man.

There's no doubt that court decided it wasn't murder.

We don't do extra judicial killing (officially) in Australia but as no arguing what happened to Abdallah was cold blooded murder.

Seems the court would argue with you on that one.

Should double jeapordy laws in Victoria be rescinded as the Baiilieu govt says it will, should Lockwood be brought back to trial for this case?

As I understand it, proposed changes to double jeopardy are only looking at cases where things like DNA or similar that weren't available originally come to light with improvements in technology. Is that likely here? It's not just a chance to have another go because you don't like the result the first time.

 

[MaddAdam]

Indeed, a jury did acquit LOckwood. That's why I've been careful not to say he did it. Because he has been acquitted by a court of law. I'm not sure how the DJ stuff would work here - if another officer present changed their evidence?

 

[Donners]

Do I have legislation from the future or has nobody read Chapter 7A of the current Criminal Procedure Act?