Play Nice The NM Devils Chessboard thread.

[ferball]

You've spouted a lot of sh*t about this situation. You can cite as many other atrocities as you like, none of it justifies this. You may not mean to, but you come across as an apologist for Putin. "Pushed into this", FFS, nobody made him/them do it.

But the bolded in particular is dangerous, illogical rubbish. They were known as the Kievan Rus because Kyiv was the first settlement established. Should Russia be subsumed into Ukraine? They were a ragtag bunch of tribes who invited the Scandinavians to come and impose order upon them (or so the legend goes). Perhaps they should all just submit to Sweden again to resolve their issues?

What should we do about Poland and Lithuania, whose borders and peoples have constantly changed over the last millennium or so?

It's this sort of thinking that has caused so much war and disharmony in the Balkans. It has no place in the modern world.

No. No one made him do it. If he hadn't done it he'd have failed as a Russian leader. "Ukraine" may have wanted to be in NATO (tho plenty of Ukrainians didn't) but if the bigger more powerful campaigners living next door don't want NATO on their door step they won't stand for it. That is realism. AS in what happen in reality when people with power make decisions about the world. And the whe war in SYria was all because of Assad. What country gets ****ed next to support US corporate Imperialism and keep you lot in the global one percent?

WE shouldn't do anything about any of it. Its none of "our" business. The country we Australians are subservient to spent over a decade ****ing about to make this war happen. Now its happened they aren't even there fighting with the people they used to provoke Putin. They will sell more gas to Europe as a result tho. For a few years.

And all you lot are here banging away as if this is all on Putin and he's worse than Hitler.

 

[Val Keating]

 

[Eggs11]

This quote in particular shows that they didn’t expect Ukraine to withstand them for so long,

“Third, the Russians — possibly out of hubris — do not appear to have prepared the logistical train necessary to keep some of their units in action for an extended period of time. Multiple videos have emerged of Russian columns out of gas and stuck on Ukrainian roads.”

I wonder if Putin is willing to commit major war crimes and escalate the bombing to indiscriminate.

It sounds like the Russians dominated the intraclub but discovered playing against actual opposition is a different game.

 

[ferball]

Nobody pushes Putin into anything. He's not a victim. He's a tyrant, and he's attempting to redraw another country's borders by force, as per his own deluded manifesto.

And imperialism is not unity consciousness either.

This is not 1200 years ago. It's 2022, and Ukraine has every right to defend its own sovereignty. It deserves peace and the right to self-governance and the freedom to make its own decisions about its future. It's expressed a desire to join the West, and has been working very hard for the past decade now to try to achieve that.

It deserves to have its wishes heard for what they are, instead of forever being relegated in identity as part of some tired geopolitical sh*tfight.

It's done more than enough to earn its own spot at the table now. It's time to honour that.

Ukraine was firing weapons into those two break away republics for months in violation of a ceasefire. How is that defending its sovereignty?

 

[Eggs11]

Ukraine was firing weapons into those two break away republics for months in violation of a ceasefire. How is that defending its sovereignty?

Wow, are you actually Russian? They are not “republics”. They are separatists armed and funded by Russia.
Edit: Equally guilty of breaching the ceasefire

 

[ferball]

Wow, are you actually Russian? They are not “republics”. They are separatists armed by Russia.
Edit: Equally guilty of breaching the ceasefire

No they aren't guilty of breaching the ceasefire. Ukraine's breaches have been documented by Al Jazeera and other non Western, non Russian media for months.

Yes they are seperatists. They are seperatists who speak Russian and feel threatened by certain Ukrainian speakers after the Ukrainians started electing far right nationalists like the Svoboda (party in 2012. The largest political party in Ukraine before that was pro Russian, but after the nationalists started getting elected there was political violence in Ukraine against that party's members. I know this cos I know someone who is Ukrainian or more technically had Ukrainian parents. I've been listening to what they have to say about it for nearly a decade and most of they said would happen has happened. Pretty much how they said it would happen.

It doesn't matter that the leader of the country is Jewish now. He wasn't the leader 10+ years ago when this shit started and people in Western Ukraine were electing political parties whose members used the term zyhdivka (an anti Jewish slur) in public and would tell political opponents to "speak Ukrainian or **** off."

 

[Val Keating]

It sounds like the Russians dominated the intraclub but discovered playing against actual opposition is a different game.

Lol.

Honestly though, I still think what they did, swiftly taking out any chance for the Ukrainians to strike them was very well done. I think they assumed the Ukrainians would capitulate after that and surrender. IMO Russia will still beat them but it’s going to come at a pretty heavy cost.

 

[Val Keating]

No they aren't guilty of breaching the ceasefire. Ukraine's breaches have been documented by Al Jazeera and other non Western, non Russian media for months.

Yes they are seperatists. They are seperatists who speak Russian and feel threatened by certain Ukrainian speakers after the Ukrainians started electing far right nationalists like the Svoboda (party in 2012. The largest political party in Ukraine before that was pro Russian, but after the nationalists started getting elected there was political violence in Ukraine against that party's members. I know this cos I know someone who is Ukrainian or more technically had Ukrainian parents. I've been listening to what they have to say about it for nearly a decade and most of they said would happen has happened. Pretty much how they said it would happen.

It doesn't matter that the leader of the country is Jewish now. He wasn't the leader 10+ years ago when this sh*t started and people in Western Ukraine were electing political parties whose members used the term zyhdivka (an anti Jewish slur) in public and would tell political opponents to "speak Ukrainian or fu** off."

Those same Russian backed rebels shot down an Air Malaysia flight a few years ago killing heaps of innocent people, including 38 Australians. ****en dogs.

 

[Val Keating]

Every single day this goes on Russia will get weaker and weaker. The rest of the world will impose more sanctions that will hurt them for years to come. Putin must be under a lot of pressure internally.

 

[ferball]

Those same Russian backed rebels shot down an Air Malaysia flight a few years ago killing heaps of innocent people, including 38 Australians. fu**en dogs.

Yeah that was ****ed.

But its just as likely to have been a mistake as a deliberate act.

The plane shouldn't have been there in the first place. It was a known war zone and the Ukrainian government had warned western governments about the dangers of flying over the area and there an exclusion zone in place that the aircraft was just metres above.

 

[Val Keating]

Yeah that was f’ed.

But its just as likely to have been a mistake as a deliberate act.

The plane shouldn't have been there in the first place. It was a known war zone and the Ukrainian government had warned western governments about the dangers of flying over the area and there an exclusion zone in place that the aircraft was just metres above.

I don’t care. They shot down a plane with our countrymen on it.

 

[Kangaroos4eva]

 

[B4Bear]

Those same Russian backed rebels shot down an Air Malaysia flight a few years ago killing heaps of innocent people, including 38 Australians. fu**en dogs.

Casualties of war will be his response.

And they are dogs. Duck them, and **** Putin.

 

[B4Bear]

Yeah that was f’ed.

But its just as likely to have been a mistake as a deliberate act.

The plane shouldn't have been there in the first place. It was a known war zone and the Ukrainian government had warned western governments about the dangers of flying over the area and there an exclusion zone in place that the aircraft was just metres above.

You really are carrying some water for Putin and his thugs.

All words before ‘but’ are bullshit.

 

[Ether]

You keep talking about vacuums is in fact one of your favourite lines of argument.

So which of your ‘not-vaccumes’ justifies this:

Attack on Kyiv begins, 198 dead including 3 children

Russian troops have taken their first “significant” city after their invasion of Ukraine began on Thursday, reported Reuters.

www.news.com.au

Good to know the company you keep agrees with your assessment.

Tucker Carlson leads rightwing charge to blame everyone but Putin

The Fox News host has defended the Russian leader’s invasion of Ukraine, saying ‘Has Putin ever called me a racist?’

www.theguardian.com

Your sophistry and edgy hipster rage against the establishment is sickening. We are 100% done on this subject. Your tolerance and justification for murder is nauseating.

I am not on board with everything ferball has written here but the "Putin is just an @rsehole" * line that seems to be the opposing viewpoint is just not helpful in trying to understand what is going on. It'd be great if small(er) neighbours of superpowers were able to give said superpower the finger but they can't. None of the current three will allow it. If they did, it would diminish their position and encourage others to do the same. Is it right? Of course not. But anyone baiting the small country into doing so would know the likely consequences ** so it's hard to know whether their outrage is just hypocritical or not real.

* I am sure he is.
** Russia can't have made them clearer.

 

[B4Bear]

I am not on board with everything ferball has written here but the "Putin is just an @rsehole" * line that seems to be the opposing viewpoint is just not helpful in trying to understand what is going on. It'd be great if small(er) neighbours of superpowers were able to give said superpower the finger but they can't. None of the current three will allow it. If they did, it would diminish their position and encourage others to do the same. Is it right? Of course not. But anyone baiting the small country into doing so would know the likely consequences ** so it's hard to know whether their outrage is just hypocritical or not real.

* I am sure he is.
** Russia can't have made them clearer.

Hence why Nato. It’s very essence is to prevent the small countries suffering what Ukraine is going through as we speak.

 

[B4Bear]

Can we all at least agree on the face of leadership?

 

[Ether]

View attachment 1334998

Can we all at least agree on the face of leadership?

One of these people is a former comedian.

 

[Eggs11]

No they aren't guilty of breaching the ceasefire. Ukraine's breaches have been documented by Al Jazeera and other non Western, non Russian media for months.

Yes they are seperatists. They are seperatists who speak Russian and feel threatened by certain Ukrainian speakers after the Ukrainians started electing far right nationalists like the Svoboda (party in 2012. The largest political party in Ukraine before that was pro Russian, but after the nationalists started getting elected there was political violence in Ukraine against that party's members. I know this cos I know someone who is Ukrainian or more technically had Ukrainian parents. I've been listening to what they have to say about it for nearly a decade and most of they said would happen has happened. Pretty much how they said it would happen.

It doesn't matter that the leader of the country is Jewish now. He wasn't the leader 10+ years ago when this sh*t started and people in Western Ukraine were electing political parties whose members used the term zyhdivka (an anti Jewish slur) in public and would tell political opponents to "speak Ukrainian or fu** off."

So, what you’re saying is that it’s ok for Russia to invade another sovereign state because it once had a pro-Russian party, once had a right-wing party and some of its citizens speak Russian. If you’re going to accept that perverse logic, then you’re comfortable with Russia invading every second country in Europe.

Don’t be misled into thinking all Ukrainians think the same way as your friends. The vast majority of Russian speaking Ukrainians care more about peace than statehood and the longer Russia supports armed conflict within Ukraine and the more lives it devastates, the more the Ukrainians turn against it.

Putin’s imperialist ambitions are the reason Ukraine turned to NATO. If Ukrainians wanted to be part of an oppressive and corrupt Soviet bloc they would have just picked up the phone to Vlad. But, strangely enough, they don’t want to be a hostage member of an authoritarian regime. A minority of Ukrainians will remain pro-Russia, but the whole point of democracy is that it accommodates alternative views without the need for war.

If any Ukrainians were undecided on this point, Putin’s ruthless disregard for the people of Ukraine and their human rights has put the matter beyond doubt. In the words of one former ambassador to Ukraine: “Mr. Putin apparently does not understand the desire of Ukrainians to live in a sovereign state and to choose their own course. He regularly refers to Russians and Ukrainians as one people, which is an utterly tone-deaf comment that many Ukrainians hear as a denial of their culture, history and language. The Kremlin’s lack of understanding is one factor that has resulted in a policy that has produced a major strategic failure for Russia; it has pushed Ukraine away and fueled great animosity there toward the Russian state.”

Putin’s invasion of Ukraine is indefensible and unacceptable which is why it has been denounced by the world.

 

[Eggs11]

One of these people is a former comedian.

And the other is a joke.

 

[ferball]

You really are carrying some water for Putin and his thugs.

All words before ‘but’ are bullshit.

Bullshit. That plane should never have been there.

It was skirting along the top of an aircraft exclusion zone where multiple transport and surveillance planes were shot down in the days beforehand.

Why did they take that ****en chance?

This doesn't excuse shooting down a plane. But the plane shouldn't have been there in the first place.

What the Catholic Church did to protect child abusers was ****ed up but it doesn't make the actual abuse any less of a crime.

 

[B4Bear]

Bullshit. That plane should never have been there.

It was skirting along the top of an aircraft exclusion zone where multiple transport and surveillance planes were shot down in the days beforehand.

Why did they take that fu**en chance?

This doesn't excuse shooting down a plane. But the plane shouldn't have been there in the first place.

What the Catholic Church did to protect child abusers was f’ed up but it doesn't make the actual abuse any less of a crime.

I refer you to my previous response.

 

[Makeshift Park]

If he hadn't done it he'd have failed as a Russian leader.

If that is the ultimate domestic political test Putin is facing, then its only because he has consistently failed to improve the prosperity of everyday Russians and reduce corruption and he has nothing left but foreign policy adventurism to plant his flag on.

"Ukraine" may have wanted to be in NATO (tho plenty of Ukrainians didn't) but if the bigger more powerful campaigners living next door don't want NATO on their door step they won't stand for it. That is realism.

Let's cut to the chase. These quotation marks suggest that you believe Ukraine is an illegitimate state and that it has no right to exist.
I hope that's not the case, even though I can't for the life of me work out what else you could possibly mean by it.
Because that's an astonishingly redpilled, nihilistic position to hold.

 

[CharlieMortdecai]

The vast majority of Russian speaking Ukrainians care more about peace than statehood and the longer Russia supports armed conflict within Ukraine and the more lives it devastates, the more the Ukrainians turn against it.

I've mentioned it here before, but it's like saying the Irish must want to be part of the UK because they speak English.

 

[ferball]

So, what you’re saying is that it’s ok for Russia to invade another sovereign state because it once had a pro-Russian party, once had a right-wing party and some of its citizens speak Russian. If you’re going to accept that perverse logic, then you’re comfortable with Russia invading every second country in Europe.

Don’t be misled into thinking all Ukrainians think the same way as your friends. The vast majority of Russian speaking Ukrainians care more about peace than statehood and the longer Russia supports armed conflict within Ukraine and the more lives it devastates, the more the Ukrainians turn against it.

Putin’s imperialist ambitions are the reason Ukraine turned to NATO. If Ukrainians wanted to be part of an oppressive and corrupt Soviet bloc they would have just picked up the phone to Vlad. But, strangely enough, they don’t want to be a hostage member of an authoritarian regime. A minority of Ukrainians will remain pro-Russia, but the whole point of democracy is that it accommodates alternative views without the need for war.

If any Ukrainians were undecided on this point, Putin’s ruthless disregard for the people of Ukraine and their human rights has put the matter beyond doubt. In the words of one former ambassador to Ukraine: “Mr. Putin apparently does not understand the desire of Ukrainians to live in a sovereign state and to choose their own course. He regularly refers to Russians and Ukrainians as one people, which is an utterly tone-deaf comment that many Ukrainians hear as a denial of their culture, history and language. The Kremlin’s lack of understanding is one factor that has resulted in a policy that has produced a major strategic failure for Russia; it has pushed Ukraine away and fueled great animosity there toward the Russian state.”

Putin’s invasion of Ukraine is indefensible and unacceptable which is why it has been denounced by the world.

No. I'm not saying its okay for Russia to invade the Ukraine. I'm saying its not okay for US statecraft to provoke a situation where Russia invades Ukraine and that is what has happened here.

The people I know aren't particularly supporters of Putin either. Neither am I. I was called an apologist for him after I listed a bunch of his crimes by someone who is more interested in having a fight than a discussion, then calls other people war mongers. But if want you can find me describing Russia as a cross between a private energy condern and a mafia cartel probably in this thread over the last 5 years. There is so much more going on here. Ukraine owes Russia billions of dollars for gas and has since before Ukraine started turning to NATO or the EU. (Some of that gas was sposed to be supplied to Europe during a particularly cold winter decades ago.)

Putin didn't start the chain of circumstances that lead to this situation but everyone is acting as tho he did. He found himself in a situation where he either invades Ukraine and keeps power or doesn't and loses it. What do you think will happen in that situation?