Play Nice The NM Devils Chessboard thread.

[ferball]

Yes, and a shitload of Ukrainians changed their mind about the successive five years.


Yeah, Of course. A quick google informs me that the population of Luhansk and Donetsk is like 3.5m, well less than 10% of the overall population.

What did your quick google tell you about those polls, their numbers, who did them or what the questions were?

 

[CharlieMortdecai]

And at what point does the potential threat of putting nuclear missiles next door start to equal gunboat diplomacy itself?

At the point where some negotiated outcome is being sought.

What does NATO or the US more specifically have to gain by threatening Russia with nearby nukes? And I mean openly seek, not shadowy stuff revealed only by allusion and suspicion. Gunboat diplomacy entails a formal treaty or agreement, such as, you know, a commitment to never allow Ukraine to join NATO.

 

[B4Bear]

This talk of ‘nuclear weapons in Ukraine’ is a bullshit conspiracy theory with zero evidence to support it.

Why? And I am serious why would the USA put nukes on the border of Russia when they have hundreds loaded on submarines that can get closer to Moscow via the north arctic sea?

This is just another grab bag excuse along with neo-Nazi drug addicts, broken cease fires and any other bullshit Russian propaganda that is being pushed.

He is a war criminal who will remain a pariah until his death.

 

[the big lebowski]

This talk of ‘nuclear weapons in Ukraine’ is a bullshit conspiracy theory with zero evidence to support it.

Why? And I am serious why would the USA put nukes on the border of Russia when they have hundreds loaded on submarines that can get closer to Moscow via the north arctic sea?

This is just another grab bag excuse along with neo-Nazi drug addicts, broken cease fires and any other bullshit Russian propaganda that is being pushed.

He is a war criminal who will remain a pariah until his death.

Like the USA can nuke every inch of the planet with 100% reliability. And they want to put nukes in Ukraine?? Every word the comes out of dictator Putin’s mouth must be assumed a lie until proven otherwise.

What I find most amazing and unexplainable to a degree, is the fact that the Ukraine Air Force is still operating.

How could this be?

 

[CharlieMortdecai]

Russia was part of the USSR, which was in a cold war and nuclear stand off with NATO, then the USSR collapsed. Since then NATO countries haven't really supported Russia in building a free open society but they happily supported the people who looted it. And now NATO may have nukes on the Russian border.

I can't really comment on that, as I wasn't aware of the support NATO governments provided to the looters. The Russian oligarchs I presume? It surprises me in some ways, and in other ways it doesn't surprise me at all. Money and greed go a long way in this world unfortunately.

I have no doubt that western Europe could have done more to help Russia build a free and open society. But to what extent was this possible? How many KGB apparatchiks that took control from Boris Yeltsin were interested in support in building a free and open society?

And you're surprised they don't behave nicely?

Not at all. Putin's track record hardly makes any of this a surprise.

And are offended when they take military steps to maintain what they see as their existential security?

Yes, I am offended. I am far from convinced this is about "existential security" however.

What else did you (or anyone else) expect would happen?

It's not about expectations. It's about behaving as a good global citizen. That is what I would hope for.

 

[ferball]

I haven't ever seen any polls re joining NATO, but the ones I've seen over the years about joining the EU run between 52-64% in favour, depending on the year and source.

And yes, if you are unhappy with how things are being done in your country, and you feel the need to take up arms about it instead of going through a democratic process to voice your concerns, then you should probably go live somewhere else. Or stay, and be prepared for the consequences.

I believe about 75,000 people did leave and go back to Russia at the outset. Many thousands of Russian passports were also handed out to Donbas fighters, as part of Putin's "Novorussiya" ("New Russia") bid.

There's also the matter of Russian "volunteers", estimated to be several thousand, who infiltrated and fought in the Donbas.

Not to mention the demographic of just oft-drunken louts and idiots who simply want an excuse to fire some heavy weapons at stuff. Which is also how passenger jets get shot down.

The demographics and motivations for fighting is challenging to parse, to say the least, and that's also reflected by the high level of infighting and violence between the rebel factions themselves over the years.

The EU isn't capable of putting US nuclear armed missiles that can hit Moscow in 15 minutes in the Ukraine.

And yes, if you are unhappy with how things are being done in your country, and you feel the need to take up arms about it instead of going through a democratic process to voice your concerns, then you should probably go live somewhere else. Or stay, and be prepared for the consequences.

Svoboda is a far right ukrainian political party whose original name was Social Nation party (which is how neo nazis troll people maybe? I dunno but its tasteless.) In the lead up to the breakaway they were initiating political violence against the largest party in the country, which was pro Russian. And pushing a "Speak Ukrainian or go home" attitude in what you described as a multicultural country. There were videos of this stuff going around back then.

So what are the people that felt targeted sposed to do? Move to Russia maybe and let the actual neo-nazis kick them out of their home? Stay and face the consequences?

In 2019 Svoboda and other nationalist parties were dumped in elections throughout the country, which is great but by then the damage had been done.

 

[B4Bear]

It is funny how the USSR/Russia has never been invaded since the end of World War II.

Yet Hungary, the Czech’s, Georgia, Afghanistan and Ukraine have all been devastated by this entity.

So how many of the above threatened them with potential nukes?

Such a bullshit tissue thin piece of propaganda being spewed out by the apologists.

 

[ferball]

This talk of ‘nuclear weapons in Ukraine’ is a bullshit conspiracy theory with zero evidence to support it.

Why? And I am serious why would the USA put nukes on the border of Russia when they have hundreds loaded on submarines that can get closer to Moscow via the north arctic sea?

This is just another grab bag excuse along with neo-Nazi drug addicts, broken cease fires and any other bullshit Russian propaganda that is being pushed.

He is a war criminal who will remain a pariah until his death.

So if Ukraine join NATO there is no way they'd be involved with a nuclear sharing deal with the US? Even tho its the Eastern NATO nations that have been hassling the US to leave those shared nukes in Europe with NATO nations.

And why wouldn't they put nuclear weapons on an enemies land border? Is Moscow suddenly the only target? And more to the point why do you think someone like Putin is gonna be okay with a situation that allows the possibility of nuclear weapons on his border?

Look at what the Western Alliance has done to Afghanistan, Iraq, Syria, Libya and allowed to happen to Yemen. You expect Putin to behave, Charlie Mordecai wants him to be "a good global citizen". But why would he trust the west not to do to Russia what they did to Libya given the opportunity?

Why should he? He has no reason to.

 

[ferball]

It is funny how the USSR/Russia has never been invaded since the end of World War II.

Yet Hungary, the Czech’s, Georgia, Afghanistan and Ukraine have all been devastated by this entity.

So how many of the above threatened them with potential nukes?

Such a bullshit tissue thin piece of propaganda being spewed out by the apologists.

So Russia is the USSR now. Where's your John Birch Society badge?

 

[B4Bear]

So if Ukraine join NATO there is no way they'd be involved with a nuclear sharing deal with the US? Even tho its the Eastern NATO nations that have been hassling the US to leave those shared nukes in Europe with NATO nations.

And why wouldn't they put nuclear weapons on an enemies land border? Is Moscow suddenly the only target? And more to the point why do you think someone like Putin is gonna be okay with a situation that allows the possibility of nuclear weapons on his border?

Look at what the Western Alliance has done to Afghanistan, Iraq, Syria, Libya and allowed to happen to Yemen. You expect Putin to behave, Charlie Mordecai wants him to be "a good global citizen". But why would he trust the west not to do to Russia what they did to Libya given the opportunity?

Why should he? He has no reason to.

They were the third largest nuclear power after the breakup of the USSR. Your idea of possibility is a bullshit conspiracy theory with no basis in reality.

Ukraine could have had nukes on the border for the last 30 years; and as it turns out they should have kept them.

 

[B4Bear]

So Russia is the USSR now. Where's your John Birch Society badge?

How many times has Russia been invaded? Deflection is not an answer.

Exactky zero times.

And why?

Because they are a ****ing nuclear nation who would nuke you into oblivion.

Your entire assertion is ridiculous and comes straight out of Moscow central.

 

[CharlieMortdecai]

The EU isn't capable of putting US nuclear armed missiles that can hit Moscow in 15 minutes in the Ukraine.

And yes, if you are unhappy with how things are being done in your country, and you feel the need to take up arms about it instead of going through a democratic process to voice your concerns, then you should probably go live somewhere else. Or stay, and be prepared for the consequences.

Svoboda is a far right ukrainian political party whose original name was Social Nation party (which is how neo nazis troll people maybe? I dunno but its tasteless.) In the lead up to the breakaway they were initiating political violence against the largest party in the country, which was pro Russian. And pushing a "Speak Ukrainian or go home" attitude in what you described as a multicultural country. There were videos of this stuff going around back then.

So what are the people that felt targeted sposed to do? Move to Russia maybe and let the actual neo-nazis kick them out of their home? Stay and face the consequences?

In 2019 Svoboda and other nationalist parties were dumped in elections throughout the country, which is great but by then the damage had been done.

Svoboda's decline was actually in the 2014 elections, where they failed to meet the 5% electoral threshold required in Ukrainian election for parliamentary representation for half the seats. They got 6 members in the other half based on first-past-the-post (there are 450 members in the Ukrainian parliament).

Their problem was similar to One Nation's problems when Howard adopted the dog-whistling of Hanson without the extremism; other parties adopted anti-Russian and anti-Communist messaging, without Svoboda's anti-Semitism and violence.

 

[CharlieMortdecai]

Look at what the Western Alliance has done to Afghanistan, Iraq, Syria, Libya and allowed to happen to Yemen. You expect Putin to behave, Charlie Mordecai wants him to be "a good global citizen". But why would he trust the west not to do to Russia what they did to Libya given the opportunity?

I don't think you'll find anybody in here giving the US and their allies a free pass on their history of foreign intervention. You could add quite a few more countries to that list.

But come on, how does that excuse Russia's invasion of another sovereign nation? And why on earth would anyone think the US would want to get bogged down in a war with Russia? They are famously isolationist for most of the time, most of their citizens hate getting involved in foreign wars. What's going to prompt them to get into the mire with Russia?

 

[Sopwiths North]

The EU isn't capable of putting US nuclear armed missiles that can hit Moscow in 15 minutes in the Ukraine.

And yes, if you are unhappy with how things are being done in your country, and you feel the need to take up arms about it instead of going through a democratic process to voice your concerns, then you should probably go live somewhere else. Or stay, and be prepared for the consequences.

Svoboda is a far right ukrainian political party whose original name was Social Nation party (which is how neo nazis troll people maybe? I dunno but its tasteless.) In the lead up to the breakaway they were initiating political violence against the largest party in the country, which was pro Russian. And pushing a "Speak Ukrainian or go home" attitude in what you described as a multicultural country. There were videos of this stuff going around back then.

So what are the people that felt targeted sposed to do? Move to Russia maybe and let the actual neo-nazis kick them out of their home? Stay and face the consequences?

In 2019 Svoboda and other nationalist parties were dumped in elections throughout the country, which is great but by then the damage had been done.

"Let the Neo-Nazis kick them out of their home?" Not only is that unrealistic, it's complete hyperbole. I looked this party up - they had 15,000 members. In a country of 44 million people.

Every country, including mine, has neo-nazis. It's not grounds for a Russian invasion. Nothing is grounds for a Russian invasion frankly, and I'm kind of disturbed by the level of diligence you've been showing in trying to give it grounds. And I say that with all respect ferbs.

 

[B4Bear]

So, regardless of whether you think this invasion is justified from a strategic, paranoia or greedy point of view.

Has the destruction and death shown so far to date been worth it?

 

[Eggs11]

No. I'm not saying its okay for Russia to invade the Ukraine.

That’s weird because you’ve spent the last two pages justifying it.

What is your point then? That there is context to this? Yes, everyone knows that.

That USA has done shitty things too? Well, everyone would agree with that too.

That Ukraine deserves this? No. No sovereign nation deserves to be invaded unless they attack first.

That the USA deserves this? Well that’s bull. Russia hasn’t invaded USA. It’s Ukrainian cities they’re destroying.

 

[Kangaroos4eva]

 

[giantroo]

 

[Kangaroos4eva]

Cruise missiles have large payloads and are considered a strategic deterrence weapon, so it looks like the Russians will use just about anything.

 

[giantroo]

 

[DesertRoo]

Catfishing for your country.. Russian soldiers have been communicating with Ukrainian women on Tinder, opening up the possibility for military intelligence to set up fake profiles and find out troop locations and movements.

Ukraine fights unconventional cyber war

Musk defends brother, the beef with Beyond Meat, Oppo’s new flagship phone

www.ft.com

 

[Sillygit]

lol I thought this thread was about chess until just now

 

[the big lebowski]

I only eat it melted sorry

Or cheese flavoured things like twisties

 

[ferball]

That summit they are referring to was in 2008.

In 2004 Russian officials said they viewed Georgia or Ukraine entering NATO as an existential threat. IE a threat to Russia's existence. Nearly 20 years ago.

In the lead up to that Summit a former head of NATO and of the Joint Chiefs of Staff Under Bill Clinton, Gen. John Shalikashvili, and other assorted european meat wagon glitterati wrote a paper advising NATO to adaopt a first nuclear strike military option as policy. It was released at the start of the year. Ostensibly it was aimed at terrorists.

At the summit Georgia and Ukraine applied for membership of NATO, supported by the US and Poland but rejected by UK, Germany and France. They were allowed some association to NATO of some sort. Putin also turned up and made the case for Russia being scared of those countries being part of NATO, among other issues he was there to discuss. This was before the war with Georgia. This has been a long standing policy of Russia's, not some half arsed Falklands type war out of nowhere in 2022. Putin reiterated it at the summit and was sposedly satisfied with the rejection of Ukraine and Georgia's attempts to get into NATO.

There is no public record of NATO's repsonse to the first strike policy but there are strong hints they've taken it on. Certainly no clear formal rejection of it as NATO has never had a "no first use" policy. But a former head of NATO released a paper calling for an explicit first strike policy (NATO has an implied first strike policy anyway) in the lead up to summit where Georgia and Ukraine's entry to NATO was decided.

Since then Russia has seen NATO reject the opportunity to end the US policy of nuclear sharing, instead upgrading its European arsenal despite the Western European nations that hold the weapons asking for the policy to end and its own commitment not to. It also seen the US and NATO turn on the only other pan arab and pan african socialist-ish relatively independent nations, Syria and Libya and attempt to or successfully destroy them.

Yet its a baseless conspiracy theory that Russia is worried about NATO on its doorstep and the potential for nuclear weapons to be used against it.

 

[big_e]

You missed a couple of important points, Ferbs.

Ukraine may have been interested in joining NATO for 20 years, but NATO isn't actually letting them in.

And there have been NATO members bordering Russia for more than 20 years, and nobody has nuked them.