The off topic thread

[WealstoneRaider]

I dont think Islam as a whole can be tainted as having a violence problem. Majority, actually no, all the muslims I know are disgusted with events post 9-11. In fact a lot are angry and ashamed that their religion is being tarnished by people they don't associate themselves with at all.

Would say many catholics would say they feel the same about priests touching kids. Does that mean catholics have a pedo problem because a small few do?

I actually think we don't really know how many Muslims sympathise with groups like IS. I wouldn't say it is anywhere near a majority, but I am betting it's more than the media like to quote

 

[UnitedWarrior93]

We will be the end of our own existence.

 

[WealstoneRaider]

77 victims - many children.

And a poster just had the nerve to say I should be ignored for being too emotional

 

[WealstoneRaider]

We will be the end of our own existence.

It could well be. It certainly will be the major struggle of our times

 

[Cooldude]

I dont think Islam as a whole can be tainted as having a violence problem. Majority, actually no all the muslims I know are disgusted with events post 9-11. In fact a lot are angry and ashamed that their religion is being tarnished by people they don't associate themselves with at all.

Would say many catholics would say they feel the same about priests touching kids. Does that mean catholics have a pedo problem because a small few do?

How do you define "Islam as a whole" though, are we gonna split a single religion into different sects based on different interpretations of the Quran and so forth? Sure, there are Muslims who don't follow the extreme bits of their holy text but those text are there and that's what gives rise to a lot of the violence perpetrated in the name of Islam. We cannot treat these groups as if they are completely separate entities (not because it's very vague and almost impossible to do so), they read from the same text and worship the same god, we can't bank on them to just read the good bits and be moderate and ignore the bad bits

This is inherently the problem with religion. The Bible, or the Quran or whatever, have good bits, but there are loads of terrible inhumane stuff in there. There will always be people out there who will be empowered by the bad bits and do crazy shit. That is a problem religion in general has to own, it cannot just separate itself from the bad seeds and say "but that's not what we are about". They are cut from the same clothe

If there are bits in the Bible that justifies paedophilia and allows these priests to do what they do then yes it's a Catholicism problem. To use another example, Christianity does fundamentally have a homophobia problem, because the Bible clearly does not tolerate it. Although there would be Christians out there who actually wouldn't have any problem with gay people, it is unfortunately a problem that Christianity has to own. Just as Islam has to own these continual violent acts (and the fact that they, out of all other religions, start the most wars, by far)

Anyway it's an tedious discussion at this stage, people will have nailed their colors to the mast on this jihadist problem long ago anyway and there's really not much point beating a dead horse

 

[WealstoneRaider]

CD has a knack of saying a whole load of nothing in a very long-winded way.

 

[jd2010]

How do you define "Islam as a whole" though, are we gonna split a single religion into different sects based on different interpretations of the Quran and so forth? Sure, there are Muslims who don't follow the extreme bits of their holy text but those text are there and that's what gives rise to a lot of the violence perpetrated in the name of Islam. We cannot treat these groups as if they are completely separate entities (not because it's very vague and almost impossible to do so), they read from the same text and worship the same god, we can't bank on them to just read the good bits and be moderate and ignore the bad bits

This is inherently the problem with religion. The Bible, or the Quran or whatever, have good bits, but there are loads of terrible inhumane stuff in there. There will always be people out there who will be empowered by the bad bits and do crazy shit. That is a problem religion in general has to own, it cannot just separate itself from the bad seeds and say "but that's not what we are about". They are cut from the same clothe

If there are bits in the Bible that justifies paedophilia and allows these priests to do what they do then yes it's a Catholicism problem. To use another example, Christianity does fundamentally have a homophobia problem, because the Bible clearly does not tolerate it. Although there would be Christians out there who actually wouldn't have any problem with gay people, it is unfortunately a problem that Christianity has to own. Just as Islam has to own these continual violent acts (and the fact that they, out of all other religions, start the most wars, by far)

Anyway it's an tedious discussion at this stage, people will have nailed their colors to the mast on this jihadist problem long ago anyway and there's really not much point beating a dead horse

I'd love to know which parts of the Quran says kill/hurt people or the Bible that says touch kids

 

[jd2010]

On a lighter note. Trying to beef up my CV for a role I had in London where frankly it was a piece of piss. Not easy at all!

 

[Cooldude]

I'd love to know which parts of the Quran says kill/hurt people or the Bible that says touch kids

I said "if" with the Bible paedophilia stuff, coz I know it isn't there. Which is why I used homophobia as an example instead. Priests child abuse is a Catholic church top brass sorta problem

Quran, welp let's do this

Quran (2:191-193) – “And slay them wherever ye find them, and drive them out of the places whence they drove you out, for persecution [of Muslims] is worse than slaughter [of non-believers]… but if desist, then lo! Allah is forgiving and merciful. And fight them until persecution is no more, and religion is for Allah.”

Quran (2:244) – “Then fight in the cause of Allah, and know that Allah Heareth and knoweth all things.”

Quran (2:216) – “Fighting is prescribed for you, and ye dislike it. But it is possible that ye dislike a thing which is good for you, and that ye love a thing which is bad for you. But Allah knoweth, and ye know not.”

Quran (3:56) – “As to those who reject faith, I will punish them with terrible agony in this world and in the Hereafter, nor will they have anyone to help.”

Quran (3:151) – “Soon shall We cast terror into the hearts of the Unbelievers, for that they joined companions with Allah, for which He had sent no authority”.

Quran (4:74) – “Let those fight in the way of Allah who sell the life of this world for the other. Whoso fighteth in the way of Allah, be he slain or be he victorious, on him We shall bestow a vast reward.”

Quran (4:89) – “They but wish that ye should reject Faith, as they do, and thus be on the same footing (as they): But take not friends from their ranks until they flee in the way of Allah (From what is forbidden). But if they turn renegades, seize them and slay them wherever ye find them; and (in any case) take no friends or helpers from their ranks.”

Quran (4:95) – “Not equal are those believers who sit (at home) and receive no hurt, and those who strive and fight in the cause of Allah with their goods and their persons. Allah hath granted a grade higher to those who strive and fight with their goods and persons than to those who sit (at home). Unto all (in Faith) Hath Allah promised good: But those who strive and fight Hath He distinguished above those who sit (at home) by a special reward,-”

Quran (4:104) – “And be not weak hearted in pursuit of the enemy; if you suffer pain, then surely they (too) suffer pain as you suffer pain…” Is pursuing an injured and retreating enemy really an act of self-defense?

Quran (5:33) – “The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His messenger and strive to make mischief in the land is only this, that they should be murdered or crucified or their hands and their feet should be cut off on opposite sides or they should be imprisoned; this shall be as a disgrace for them in this world, and in the hereafter they shall have a grievous chastisement”

Quran (8:12) – “I will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Therefore strike off their heads and strike off every fingertip of them” No reasonable person would interpret this to mean a spiritual struggle.

Quran (8:15) – “O ye who believe! When ye meet those who disbelieve in battle, turn not your backs to them. (16)Whoso on that day turneth his back to them, unless maneuvering for battle or intent to join a company, he truly hath incurred wrath from Allah, and his habitation will be hell, a hapless journey’s end.”



There are so many more, but the bandwidth of the site mightn't take it

 

[undefined]

There needs to be an immediate step taken towards tackling radicalised terror - contrary to the gun control debate in the US where particular jurisdiction renders unauthorised legislative alteration almost impossible.

The world really is in awful shape as we speak. Obama's tenure coming to an end, almost everyone (even the non-well informed) panicking about the Brexit fallout, China's slowdown from industry transition still present, Donald Trump in with a serious chance of becoming US President, etc. etc.

And then there's ISIS and other terrorist groups in Europe - threatening the livelihood of innocent beings - the problem is worsening as time passes. Ever so gradually becoming sickening. I usually don't feel any personal emotion regarding what goes on overseas in terms of current events, but this problem is starting to chew away at the metaphorical safety blanket I've been covered in throughout my life, being brought up in the lucky country. We may be isolated here but it'd be naive to consider us immune to the type of horror currently occurring on French and Turkish soil.

 

[SM]

If 0.02% of muslims are extreme like these people is there any point pandering to them?

Understand them yes, they hate the west or whatever crap they sell to the misguided. But we should never change who we are for such a vile minority

Who suggested pandering to them? I'm a bit surprised that there's a suggestion that we should just carry on the way we are when it's clearly not working.

 

[SM]

Irony

Anyhow, better to have a rational discussion about this and ignore the angry emotional ones doing their usual chest thumping.

The Kuran itself obviously has a problem with violence but Islam itself isn't a problem that is really solvable anymore since there's just no way to control or change a religion without more violent splash back. It will always be the elephant in the room as long as it exists

These attacks are intensifying because ISIS is losing the war and are sending out dudes out for some last ditch bangs, ISIS itself will eventually be rooted out but who knows when the next extremist group will come up.

The Kuran actually doesn't have an issue with violence - well, not anymore than the Old Testament does. It's the translations of the Kuran and the interpretations by people with radical agendas that is the issue. There are numerous instances in the Kuran preaching peace and tolerance - for instance the Kuran underlines the point that men and women should be held in equal regard, that instead of arguing with people who do not believe in the same God as you, you should merely say to them "You follow your God, and I will follow mine", that if a woman is not consenting to sex to leave her in her bed and return to yours - BUT when translated, many have been able to warp the language as it seems Arabic is quite a fluid language. I believe there's a project ongoing at the moment to translate the Kuran far more literally that is being praised by a lot of moderate Muslim scholars as being the most accurate representation of it.

 

[SM]

77 victims - many children.

And a poster just had the nerve to say I should be ignored for being too emotional

Emotion in conversations like this has no place. Outpourings of grief are completely fine, but you became quite antagonistic towards me when I showed no such antagonism to you. I'm deeply affected by it as I've already explained, but when trying to discuss a way forward, letting your emotion get the better of you to the point you feel the need to attack other posters is uncalled for.

 

[Loonerty]

We will be the end of our own existence.

Through one way or another, absolutely. Nuclear fallout, global warming, you name it.

 

[undefined]

Through one way or another, absolutely. Nuclear fallout, global warming, you name it.

Climate change scares the shit out of me.

 

[jd2010]

I said "if" with the Bible paedophilia stuff, coz I know it isn't there. Which is why I used homophobia as an example instead. Priests child abuse is a Catholic church top brass sorta problem

Quran, welp let's do this

Quran (2:191-193) – “And slay them wherever ye find them, and drive them out of the places whence they drove you out, for persecution [of Muslims] is worse than slaughter [of non-believers]… but if desist, then lo! Allah is forgiving and merciful. And fight them until persecution is no more, and religion is for Allah.”

Quran (2:244) – “Then fight in the cause of Allah, and know that Allah Heareth and knoweth all things.”

Quran (2:216) – “Fighting is prescribed for you, and ye dislike it. But it is possible that ye dislike a thing which is good for you, and that ye love a thing which is bad for you. But Allah knoweth, and ye know not.”

Quran (3:56) – “As to those who reject faith, I will punish them with terrible agony in this world and in the Hereafter, nor will they have anyone to help.”

Quran (3:151) – “Soon shall We cast terror into the hearts of the Unbelievers, for that they joined companions with Allah, for which He had sent no authority”.

Quran (4:74) – “Let those fight in the way of Allah who sell the life of this world for the other. Whoso fighteth in the way of Allah, be he slain or be he victorious, on him We shall bestow a vast reward.”

Quran (4:89) – “They but wish that ye should reject Faith, as they do, and thus be on the same footing (as they): But take not friends from their ranks until they flee in the way of Allah (From what is forbidden). But if they turn renegades, seize them and slay them wherever ye find them; and (in any case) take no friends or helpers from their ranks.”

Quran (4:95) – “Not equal are those believers who sit (at home) and receive no hurt, and those who strive and fight in the cause of Allah with their goods and their persons. Allah hath granted a grade higher to those who strive and fight with their goods and persons than to those who sit (at home). Unto all (in Faith) Hath Allah promised good: But those who strive and fight Hath He distinguished above those who sit (at home) by a special reward,-”

Quran (4:104) – “And be not weak hearted in pursuit of the enemy; if you suffer pain, then surely they (too) suffer pain as you suffer pain…” Is pursuing an injured and retreating enemy really an act of self-defense?

Quran (5:33) – “The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His messenger and strive to make mischief in the land is only this, that they should be murdered or crucified or their hands and their feet should be cut off on opposite sides or they should be imprisoned; this shall be as a disgrace for them in this world, and in the hereafter they shall have a grievous chastisement”

Quran (8:12) – “I will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Therefore strike off their heads and strike off every fingertip of them” No reasonable person would interpret this to mean a spiritual struggle.

Quran (8:15) – “O ye who believe! When ye meet those who disbelieve in battle, turn not your backs to them. (16)Whoso on that day turneth his back to them, unless maneuvering for battle or intent to join a company, he truly hath incurred wrath from Allah, and his habitation will be hell, a hapless journey’s end.”



There are so many more, but the bandwidth of the site mightn't take it

"Anyone arrogant enough to reject the verdict of the [holy man] who represents God must be put to death. Such evil must be purged"

Exodus Chapter 21, verse 20: If a man beats his male or female slave with a rod and the slave dies as a direct result, he must be punished, but he is not to be punished if the slave gets up after a day or two, since the slave is his property

It's all about interpretation. Both those quotes straight from the bible. Does that mean christianity has a slavery and violence problem?

 

[Loonerty]

Climate change scares the shit out of me.

Yeah, shame it doesn't scare the powerful people in this country enough.

 

[chef]

Climate change scares the shit out of me.

Yep. I really worry for my kids and my future grandkids.

Too bad the people who could stop it dont care because they wont be around.

 

[WealstoneRaider]

Emotion in conversations like this has no place. Outpourings of grief are completely fine, but you became quite antagonistic towards me when I showed no such antagonism to you. I'm deeply affected by it as I've already explained, but when trying to discuss a way forward, letting your emotion get the better of you to the point you feel the need to attack other posters is uncalled for.

SM I think I owe you an apology. I just read our exchange back, and although I disagree with you on some points, I was too emotive and flew off the handle with you. Your posts aren't as crude as I thought when I read them initially - I guess I was in a more heightened emotional state.

Sorry and I hope we can move forward.

 

[Cooldude]

"Anyone arrogant enough to reject the verdict of the [holy man] who represents God must be put to death. Such evil must be purged"

Exodus Chapter 21, verse 20: If a man beats his male or female slave with a rod and the slave dies as a direct result, he must be punished, but he is not to be punished if the slave gets up after a day or two, since the slave is his property

It's all about interpretation. Both those quotes straight from the bible. Does that mean christianity has a slavery and violence problem?

Welp Christianity used to have a lot problem with those things too, centuries ago. And there are still Christian violence problems in Africa right now, although it's more of a bygone centuries ago thing. But from all the noises in America about killing all the homosexuals, you wouldn't bank on them being pacifists if they get the chance

But that's the main problem though, interpretation, that's what makes it the biggest problem. That there are verses there in the holy texts that justify violence, and it only takes an individual or a group to read it in that way for them to commit heinous acts. That in itself, is why religion in general is dangerous. If we are relying on religion to do the good thing via interpretation then we'll always be disappointed

 

[undefined]

Yep. I really worry for my kids and my future grandkids.

Too bad the people who could stop it dont care because they wont be around.

"But repealing the carbon tax has financially benefited the average Australian household"

 

[SM]

SM I think I owe you an apology. I just read our exchange back, and although I disagree with you on some points, I was too emotive and flew off the handle with you. Your posts aren't as crude as I thought when I read them initially - I guess I was in a more heightened emotional state.

Sorry and I hope we can move forward.

Yeah that's fine. I wasn't trying to have a crack at you or be patronising, genuinely did think we were essentially agreeing on the general point that this was sickening violence that needs to end which is why I was trying to focus on what we agreed on not what we disagreed on. All good.

 

[SM]

Welp Christianity used to have a lot problem with those things too, centuries ago. And there are still Christian violence problems in Africa right now, although it's more of a bygone centuries ago thing. But from all the noises in America about killing all the homosexuals, you wouldn't bank on them being pacifists if they get the chance

But that's the main problem though, interpretation, that's what makes it the biggest problem. That there are verses there in the holy texts that justify violence, and it only takes an individual or a group to read it in that way for them to commit heinous acts. That in itself, is why religion in general is dangerous. If we are relying on religion to do the good thing via interpretation then we'll always be disappointed

The verses themselves are the translator's interpretation of the Arabic text. The same Arabic phrasing can both suggest only having sex with a woman with her consent, and can also mean to beat her. I have no idea how that works but it seems a weird language!

 

[jd2010]

But that's the main problem though, interpretation, that's what makes it the biggest problem. That there are verses there in the holy texts that justify violence, and it only takes an individual or a group to read it in that way for them to commit heinous acts. That in itself, is why religion in general is dangerous. If we are relying on religion to do the good thing via interpretation then we'll always be disappointed

110% agree

There's aspects of all religion that has great purpose and can achieve great things. But whack jobs have chosen to interpret things a certain way where I myself just dont see it doing good anymore, just bad

 

[WealstoneRaider]

My worry is that if these attacks continue to happen it will tear civilisations apart. It's certainly already tearing communities apart. I think the words the politicians are using after these attacks are starting to wear thin. I guess if these attacks "only" occur every three or four months then maybe it can be ridden out - although that's no comfort to those victims. If they are stepped up though - then I do genuinely fear for the relative cohesion that exists in the world.