The on topic thread 3.0

[Bradesmaen]

Unfortunately a lot of the BAME Community over here haven't taken up the vaccine and a lot of premier league footballers are BAME.

 

[moomba]

Can't force someone to take a vaccine for what's essentially an entertainment industry.

Can understand it in hospitals and the like, but not in the general community.

 

[Magma]

similar to school in the summer, no hat no play

 

[SM]

Can't force someone to take a vaccine for what's essentially an entertainment industry.

Can understand it in hospitals and the like, but not in the general community.

Quite right, can't force them, but also means they aren't allowed to play. They shouldn't be entitled to jeopardise the competition because of their selfishness.

 

[moomba]

Quite right, can't force them, but also means they aren't allowed to play. They shouldn't be entitled to jeopardise the competition because of their selfishness.

The lawyers will love that.

 

[SM]

The lawyers will love that.

They're welcome to try. As Magma suggested, it's going to be pretty vital for these sporting comps to ensure no stoppages for outbreaks of COVID. Would think the players wouldn't want to be playing with unvaccinated players either.

 

[ADL9798]

Can't force someone to take a vaccine for what's essentially an entertainment industry.

Can understand it in hospitals and the like, but not in the general community.

I saw Chelsea are mandating vaccination or a negative test for fans coming to Stamford Bridge, I assume other clubs have/will do something similar?

Would be interesting to see how it would play out if they didn’t apply a similar set of rules to the players.

 

[SM]

I would have thought employers would be able to require employees to be vaccinated to make the workplace safe for all employees.

 

[moomba]

I saw Chelsea are mandating vaccination or a negative test for fans coming to Stamford Bridge, I assume other clubs have/will do something similar?

Would be interesting to see how it would play out if they didn’t apply a similar set of rules to the players.

I think the government has said something along those lines. I'm expecting us to have something like that in place as well, although not sure how it's going to work.

As a provider of a service though, football clubs can set requirements like "must be vsccinated". As an employer its more complicated, and imo would need legislation to be enforceable.

There's already talk that vegans will be exempt from any compulsory vaccinations laws so I think clubs will end up going down the line of encouraging (strongly) but not making it mandatory.

 

[moomba]

I would have thought employers would be able to require employees to be vaccinated to make the workplace safe for all employees.

At this point I would think it would be illegal for an employer to even ask if an employee is vaccinated.

[Edit]Having a bit of a look, not definitely illegal, but problematic. And could expose a company to discrimination claims.

 

[ADL9798]

I think the government has said something along those lines. I'm expecting us to have something like that in place as well, although not sure how it's going to work.

As a provider of a service though, football clubs can set requirements like "must be vsccinated". As an employer its more complicated, and imo would need legislation to be enforceable.

There's already talk that vegans will be exempt from any compulsory vaccinations laws so I think clubs will end up going down the line of encouraging (strongly) but not making it mandatory.

From FairWork Australia:

“Employers can direct their employees to be vaccinated if the direction is lawful and reasonable. Whether a direction is lawful and reasonable needs to be assessed on a case by case basis.”

Not sure what the UK equivalent are saying but presumably as an overriding principle businesses there also have an obligation to create a safe working environment for their employees and clients/customers (acknowledging that risk varies from setting to setting).

Would it be reasonable to extend this to vaccinating against a potentially lethal and very common/easily transmissible disease?

Imagine that you have a Premier League club with an immunocompromised or otherwise vulnerable employee - the employer is then forced to weigh up their obligation to that individual vs their obligation to staff who are refusing to be vaccinated. Who wins? It’s going to be fascinating to watch this play out around the world over the next year.

 

[Magma]

i know at work that our job notices all go out with 'might be necessary' to get the covid 19 jab.

 

[moomba]

From FairWork Australia:

“Employers can direct their employees to be vaccinated if the direction is lawful and reasonable. Whether a direction is lawful and reasonable needs to be assessed on a case by case basis.”

Not sure what the UK equivalent are saying but presumably as an overriding principle businesses there also have an obligation to create a safe working environment for their employees and clients/customers (acknowledging that risk varies from setting to setting).

Would it be reasonable to extend this to vaccinating against a potentially lethal and very common/easily transmissible disease?

Imagine that you have a Premier League club with an immunocompromised or otherwise vulnerable employee - the employer is then forced to weigh up their obligation to that individual vs their obligation to staff who are refusing to be vaccinated. Who wins? It’s going to be fascinating to watch this play out around the world over the next year.

The government has passed legislation to make it mandatory for care home workers to be vaccinated (unless exempt) from November.

I expect it would take something similar for businesses to be certain they would avoid unfair or constructive dismissal claims.

And then you wonder if clubs would be prepared to lose assets worth millions for nothing. Imagine if a KDB or Kane or Sancho decided the didn't want to be vaccinated?

 

[SM]

At this point I would think it would be illegal for an employer to even ask if an employee is vaccinated.

[Edit]Having a bit of a look, not definitely illegal, but problematic. And could expose a company to discrimination claims.

Wouldn't have thought so at all. If I was asked by my employer to attend my office I think I have a right to know if I'm encountering unvaccinated people.

 

[Magma]

i know at work that our job notices all go out with 'might be necessary' to get the covid 19 jab.

although i do work in pathology so that might play a part

 

[moomba]

Wouldn't have thought so at all. If I was asked by my employer to attend my office I think I have a right to know if I'm encountering unvaccinated people.

Personally, I don't think you do. You could be infected by a vaccinated or unvaccinated person so it's best to take responsibility for yourself.

Remember that even if it was mandatory in the workplace there would be people that would be exempt.

 

[moomba]

FWIW, just looking at the NFL situation. Not mandatory to be vaccinated but subject to different requirements (testing, masks, contacts etc) if you aren't vaccinated than if you are.

 

[Latro]

 

[ADL9798]

FWIW, just looking at the NFL situation. Not mandatory to be vaccinated but subject to different requirements (testing, masks, contacts etc) if you aren't vaccinated than if you are.

Yes, I suspect that’s where they’ll land (much like most of the rest of society outside high risk settings). Strongly encouraged but not mandated, but individuals who are unvaccinated will have to deal with a lot of inconveniences relative to a vaccinated person.

 

[Latro]

Yes, I suspect that’s where they’ll land (much like most of the rest of society outside high risk settings). Strongly encouraged but not mandated, but individuals who are unvaccinated will have to deal with a lot of inconveniences relative to a vaccinated person.

Premier League players have a lot more power than NFL players.

 

[SM]

Odd, as 18 months ago I suspect we would have all sat here critical of anti-vaxxers taking other people's health in their hand.

For example in NSW you can have your child excluded from Daycare programs if they are not vaccinated:

Immunisation programs - Questions and answers about vaccination requirements for child care, primary and secondary schools

immunisation requirements for Childcare, preschool and primary and secondary school children.

www.health.nsw.gov.au

I have no idea why the COVID vaccination would be any different with regards to legally being able to exclude people. I find it hard to believe there are any people who are less at risk of COVID than of the vaccine in the world, so would be curious if anyone is able to expand on that.

 

[TheGreatBarryB]

FWIW, just looking at the NFL situation. Not mandatory to be vaccinated but subject to different requirements (testing, masks, contacts etc) if you aren't vaccinated than if you are.

All coaches in NFL must be vaccinated and one even was “re-assigned” to another role for his refusal to vaccinate. Another has been fired.

As for the players not mandatory but they’ve been told a team may have to forfeit a game if unvaccinated catch covid and guys can’t play. In which case no one on either team gets paid and the infected team had to pay other team expenses.

NFL vaccinated players only required to test every 14 days and no masks inside but unvaccinated every day tested and have to wear masks. Some fringe players have been cut.

 

[SM]

All coaches in NFL must be vaccinated and one even was “re-assigned” to another role for his refusal to vaccinate. Another has been fired.

As for the players not mandatory but they’ve been told a team may have to forfeit a game if unvaccinated catch covid and guys can’t play. In which case no one on either team gets paid and the infected team had to pay other team expenses.

NFL vaccinated players only required to test every 14 days and no masks inside but unvaccinated every day tested and have to wear masks. Some fringe players have been cut.

Sounds like mandatory in all but name by making it incredibly not worth it to go unvaccinated. Still a bit confused about what situations exist where people would be 'exempt' from vaccination - would have thought any medical risks of the vaccination are only amplified with regards to COVID itself.

 

[ADL9798]

Odd, as 18 months ago I suspect we would have all sat here critical of anti-vaxxers taking other people's health in their hand.

For example in NSW you can have your child excluded from Daycare programs if they are not vaccinated:

Immunisation programs - Questions and answers about vaccination requirements for child care, primary and secondary schools

immunisation requirements for Childcare, preschool and primary and secondary school children.

www.health.nsw.gov.au

I have no idea why the COVID vaccination would be any different with regards to legally being able to exclude people. I find it hard to believe there are any people who are less at risk of COVID than of the vaccine in the world, so would be curious if anyone is able to expand on that.

Mandatory vaccination for other diseases (either legislated by government or as an employer directive/contractual condition of employment) and capacity to exclude unvaccinated individuals has historically been reserved for high risk occupations or occupations where you may interact with vulnerable people such as healthcare, aged care, emergency services, childcare and early learning, etc.

Even the 'No Jab No Play' legislation rolled out in most Australian states and territories recently that you've referred to above has been highly controversial despite being underpinned by a strong evidence base.

For COVID a similar risk based framework should apply, but due to the public health impact of COVID relative to other diseases you could definitely build a case that it would be reasonable for government or employers to make vaccination mandatory across a broader array of settings.

 

[DBAH0]

USA just scored in the Gold Cup final vs. Mexico in Vegas with 3 mins left in Extra Time. 1-0.