The on topic thread

[jd2010]

I'm not sure what the point is. Only 1 might have made it, but in his place was another English player developed through the English system.

An English player of 22 with less than 10 years left compared to the quality of youth coming through in Spain and Germany that's poor.

Facts are facts. German football from 2000 showed that it could be turned around and pretty quickly too.
Within 6 years they’d made a World Ccup semi-final & had the young player of the tournament.
Within 13 years they had an all-German Champions League final with 12 Germans starting, and 18 out of the 24 involved in the final had come through German academies!
Within 14 years they win the world cup

English football can either sit on their hands and do nothing like they have forever. Or they can make limp changes like the U21 premier league. Or they can shake the foundations of clubs and the league and improve

 

[Cruyff14]

Germany made the quarters of WC 98, won Euro 96, made the final of Euro 92 and won WC 90. What was wrong with their setup?

 

[jd2010]

Germany made the quarters of WC 98, won Euro 96, made the final of Euro 92 and won WC 90. What was wrong with their setup?

Dismal performance at Euro 2000 (1st time they'd not made knock-out stages of a tournament in 20 odd years) and very poor showings by all their youth & domestic sides.

 

[Cruyff14]

I find it ironic you didn't mention Bayern winning CL in 01 and Germany making WC final in 02.

 

[Shoei]

milner has played a heap of games and made the majority of his england appearances since moving. arguably the best thing he did in his career.
doesn't matter where johnson went, attitude has always been piss poor and lazy.
micah's body is made of glass. simple as that. he's still not able to get himself regularly fit at fiorentina

Shaun Wright-Philips is another one that could have/should have.

Was developing nicely at Man City then moved to Chelsea, couldn't establish himself at Chelsea then went back to City.....

Then couldn't hold his position at City and ended up at QPR.

36 England caps....

 

[jd2010]

I find it ironic you didn't mention Bayern winning CL in 01 and Germany making WC final in 02.

Going straight off the article. They made the WC final with a poor side in 2002 it has to be said. Never looked like beating Brazil and were comfortably beaten

EDIT: also just saw it was a Bayern 11 with only 4 Germans in 2001 fwiw

 

[jd2010]

Also put look at in a German perspective and not a English one Cruyff14 finishing last in a group stage of a European championship (they'd made 5 of 7 finals) was an unexpected disaster that prompted changes to the way the game was run

 

[Latro]

Will just leave this here for discussion.

 

[moomba]

They've shaken the foundations a year or so ago with the EPPP. I think people underestimate how significant a change that is.

It took Germany 13 years, yet people are expecting results from EPPP within months.

I look at City. When we overhauled our academy we wrote off U18's and above, bought most of the 16/17 years squad, and worked on the U14's and below.

Those kids are the ones that are going turn things around IMO. But it takes time.

 

[jd2010]

They've shaken the foundations a year or so ago with the EPPP. I think people underestimate how significant a change that is.

This current structure wont do anything mark my words. England as a national team won't improve be a QF nation in the next WC imo

 

[moomba]

This current structure wont do anything mark my words. England as a national team won't improve be a QF nation in the next WC imo

Thats because its too early to reap the benefits. When you're talking youth development you need to give yourself a good decade.

 

[moomba]

Shaun Wright-Philips is another one that could have/should have.

Was developing nicely at Man City then moved to Chelsea, couldn't establish himself at Chelsea then went back to City.....

Then couldn't hold his position at City and ended up at QPR.

36 England caps....

As much as I love SWP he's one that never had the technical ability to be a top line player.

 

[Shoei]

Going straight off the article. They made the WC final with a poor side in 2002 it has to be said. Never looked like beating Brazil and were comfortably beaten

EDIT: also just saw it was a Bayern 11 with only 4 Germans in 2001 fwiw

WC 2002

Kahn - Bayern (Worlds best keeper at the time)
Linke - Bayern (2001 Champions league winner)
Ramelow - Leverkusen (2002 Champions league runner up)
Metzelder - Very good player for both Dortmund and Madrid
Frings - Good but limited player
Hamann - Good player for Bayern and Liverpool
Jeremies - Bayern (2001 Champions league winner)
Bode - Didn't want to leave childhood club Werder Bremen even though was good enough for Bayern
Schneider - Leverkusen (2002 Champions league runner up)
Klose - Great player - 137 caps/71 goals is pretty decent
Neuville - Leverkeusen (2002 Champions league runner up)
Bierhoff - Yeah probably past it
Asamoah - Yeah probably poor
Zieger - Good enough player

Their team wasn't overly poor with most players coming from the Bayern/Leverkusen teams that back to back Champions league finals.

Brazil would have beaten any team that year with their team.

 

[jd2010]

WC 2002

Kahn - Bayern (Worlds best keeper at the time)
Linke - Bayern (2001 Champions league winner)
Ramelow - Leverkusen (2002 Champions league runner up)
Metzelder - Very good player for both Dortmund and Madrid
Frings - Good but limited player
Hamann - Good player for Bayern and Liverpool
Jeremies - Bayern (2001 Champions league winner)
Bode - Didn't want to leave childhood club Werder Bremen even though was good enough for Bayern
Schneider - Leverkusen (2002 Champions league runner up)
Klose - Great player - 137 caps/71 goals is pretty decent
Neuville - Leverkeusen (2002 Champions league runner up)
Bierhoff - Yeah probably past it
Asamoah - Yeah probably poor
Zieger - Good enough player

Their team wasn't overly poor with most players coming from the Bayern/Leverkusen teams that back to back Champions league finals.

Brazil would have beaten any team that year with their team.

Of the 14 you listed about 4-5 are just good or past it. They did very well getting there but like you say they were well short of the best. Lets not forget it was the WC where Turkey and South Korea made semis!

 

[jd2010]

Thats because its too early to reap the benefits. When you're talking youth development you need to give yourself a good decade.

Agreed the overall overhaul will take 12+ years like the Germans showed. But the small signs of success were there within 6 years. 10 of their World Cup squad that made the semis were under 24 and would have seen some of the benefits of the reforms

 

[moomba]

Not particularly relevant to the English game but it is typical of a mindset that still exists.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/fo...snubbed-Scotland-19s-small.html#ixzz3VJaU06rG

Real Madrid starlet Jack Harper snubbed for Scotland Under 19s for being too small... despite standing over 6ft tall

Jack Harper has been left out of the Scotland Under 19s squad for the upcoming games by manager Ricky Sbragia
Sbragia believes Harper is too small and not physical enough to play
Harper is currently on a five-year deal at Real Madrid and is being coached by former club legend Zinedine Zidane

Real Madrid youngster Jack Harper has been snubbed by Scotland Under-19s manager Ricky Sbragia because he is a 'luxury' player who isn't big enough.

The young Scots travel to play three games against Austria, Italy and Croatia in the UEFA Under-19s Championship. Highly-rated forward Harper who has netted three goals for Real Madrid in this season's UEFA Youth League, is midway through a five-year deal at the Bernabeu, and can count former club legend Zinedine Zidane as one of his coaches.

He's already been linked with a move to both Liverpool and Manchester United, but that hasn't been enough to earn him a spot in the squad, despite playing in the qualifiers in Lithuania.

However, former Sunderland boss Sbragia has explained it's nothing personal with the 19-year-old, he's just gone for a more physical approach, despite Harper standing at over 6ft tall.

Sbragia explained: 'Our concentration is on the opening game with Austria and we've deliberately got more height in our squad. That's one of the reasons why Jack isn't in

'Unfortunately, I don't see enough of him in action. The last time he was with us, he did OK, but I wanted a little more impact. At Real Madrid he can float all over the place, which he does. But with us, he has to be more disciplined.

'He's an exceptionally gifted lad, but sometimes we can't carry him. He can be a luxury sometimes. In some cases, if it's going well, he can be a good luxury.'

But the ex-Manchester United reserve team coach still believes Harper has a big future ahead of him. Sbragia stressed: 'Listen, Jack's time will come. The last time I spoke to him, he wanted to really settle in at Real Madrid and find a place there. That's been a big thing for him.

'I've gone with the boys I've seen most in the last six months. We keep tabs on Jack and see video clips of him. We have people over there who keep their eye on him.

'There are others I've left out like Dominic Thomas at Motherwell who will have gripes that they're not in the squad.

'But I've picked a group of 18 which will hopefully do well for us. It's my opinion and I'm not saying it's right. But the squad I've picked is an extremely strong one.

'I can only pick 18 when I really could have picked 26 or 27. I've gone for a physical side and runners. Hopefully I'm right.

'It's purely tactical and there certainly hasn't been a lack of enthusiasm from Jack about playing for Scotland.'

FWIW if this kid is good, his path back to Britain will be blocked by there being only 13 non home grown player spots in each teams squad.

 

[moomba]

According to Sky, 5 clubs wouldnt currently meet the home grown player requirements if they were introduced today.

MCFC - 4 foreign players need to go plus Clichy and Boyata cease to be homegrown. So maybe 6.

Spurs - 4

Arsenal - 4 plus Szzzzzzzny, Coquelin and Martinez

Chelsea - 3 plus Fabregas

Newcastle - 3 plus Krul

They also say that clubs are going to oppose the changes.

 

[moomba]

We'd have no club trained players (despite Boyata being with us for 8 years since he was 16) so presumably we'd have to cut two more.

I would imagine a lot of clubs would struggle to find two club trained players if it is three years before the 18th birthday.

 

[chef]

The good thing about this next batch is that so many of them are at clubs willing to give them a go like us, Southampton, Arsenal & Liverpool. The previous lot fell into the traps of City & Chelsea and you end up with wastes of careers like Scott Sinclair & McEacheran.

Unfortunately McEarcheran just wasn't/isn't that good of a player. He's shown that at a number of clubs at a number of different levels.

What players gave Spurs, Saints, Pool or Arsenal developed (serious question) that would get games at a City, Chelsea, Bayern, Barca etc?

 

[Cruyff14]

Unfortunately McEarcheran just wasn't/isn't that good of a player. He's shown that at a number of clubs at a number of different levels.

What players gave Spurs, Saints, Pool or Arsenal developed (serious question) that would get games at a City, Chelsea, Bayern, Barca etc?

Cesc, probably about it.

 

[Zidane98]

Cesc, probably about it.

Bale, Sterling.

 

[Cruyff14]

Bale was trained at Southampton wasn't he?

And I can't see Sterling starting for Barca/Bayern/Real with who they have on the wings currently.

 

[Zidane98]

I digress. Bale was a Southampton academy player but Spurs did play a big part in his development.

As for Sterling no he wouldn't get into the lineups for Real / Barca / Bayern but would get into City / Chelsea.

 

[Bojan KantKick]

Sterling is from qpr.

 

[Cruyff14]

Touché.

Yeah, agree.