Opinion The Rebuild Thread

[thylacine60]

If there is a meeting possible where we can vote for an external review, I'm there. Pie in the sky stuff no doubt.

 

[No1Suspect]

Amen.

"In Hughes we trust"....... That went well

My hearts broken... Can I trust again!?!

 

[Heres Waite]

I have been thinking today about the Northern Blues. I was wondering if anyone here goes to watch their games and if they could give a bit of a rundown on their game plan? Do they follow the seniors mold of kicking around the boundary? If not, how do they play?

My thoughts on this are:

If they don't play the same game plan as the seniors, why not? The Northern Blues are ultimately there to feed the seniors, players should be able to step up into a similar role in a similar game plan that they have been playing in the twos. Don't get me wrong I am glad that at least one of our teams is getting some success. They are the silver lining at the moment. My biggest worry here is that if a player is playing well in the 2s, and then comes up into a side where the game plan is completely different, how can that player be expected to play at an effective level.

If they do play the same game plan, why does it seem to be (relatively) working for them? Is it because the opposition isn't as sophisticated? The players in the twos are trying harder as to get a game in the seniors? They don't have as much pressure on them? All of the above?

 

[WillowSF]

Malthouse lacks credibility after having built expectations as little as four weeks ago. If the season continues to unravel and there are better options at the end of the season it would be foolish to not at least consider replacing him. There would be obviously a significant cost involved but it may very well be worth it. I agree with the sentiment from other posters that Kernahan and company should be moved on.

 

[thylacine60]

I have been thinking today about the Northern Blues. I was wondering if anyone here goes to watch their games and if they could give a bit of a rundown on their game plan? Do they follow the seniors mold of kicking around the boundary? If not, how do they play?

My thoughts on this are:

If they don't play the same game plan as the seniors, why not? The Northern Blues are ultimately there to feed the seniors, players should be able to step up into a similar role in a similar game plan that they have been playing in the twos. Don't get me wrong I am glad that at least one of our teams is getting some success. They are the silver lining at the moment. My biggest worry here is that if a player is playing well in the 2s, and then comes up into a side where the game plan is completely different, how can that player be expected to play at an effective level.

If they do play the same game plan, why does it seem to be (relatively) working for them? Is it because the opposition isn't as sophisticated? The players in the twos are trying harder as to get a game in the seniors? They don't have as much pressure on them? All of the above?

Check the Northern Blues thread at the top of the page. Harker, msr and others - plus media - all report in there.

 

[Azul]

What are the odds the boys have a real crack next weekend and make us proud of them?

$2.40 on the tab.

 

[Heres Waite]

Check the Northern Blues thread at the top of the page. Harker, msr and others - plus media - all report in there.

Cheers mate

 

[btdg]

Looking at where we are at, we have some serious issues, and I need a rant to feel better about the weekend...

The biggest by far is that everyone is looking to point the finger and look elsewhere. It's all about which players to get rid of, whether to sack the coach, which recruiter has to go, whether we should get rid of the board, etc.

The fact is, we are below average in every single aspect of football, and these things are interrelated. The problem is that our club is first and foremost built around its people. If you sack, replace, get rid of them - then you lose the essence of the club. Every time someone gets treated poorly part of our club dies. We've been doing this for 30 years - since we sacked Jesaulenko after he won a premiership as coach - and each time we do, part of us rots away. It began slowly, but right now, the club is a festering corpse, putrid from head to toe, rotting in the filth of its own past misdeeds.

From head to toe, we need a plan of action. It's going to take 15 years to rebuild the club, and we have to acknowledge that now. But with out past, with our resources, with our passion we can do it. Time for everyone to stop looking elsewhere, and start looking at themselves. And that means everyone...

It begins with the supporters. We are arguably the worst group of supporters in the competition. We have no patience in tough times. We demand blood every time we fall behind the competition. We're blindly oblivious to our situation, and blindly arrogant about our past. We need to become patient and supportive. Criticism needs to be forward-looking, not backwards and reactionary. Accept the good with the bad, and accept we're due a hefty dose of the bad - and after 16 premierships, take our medicine and do things the right way.

The players need our support. The question should never be 'who do we delist/trade', but 'how do we make our players better'. As a club, we look at guys like Bootsma/Lucas/Warnock/Watson and see failed high-profile players with deficiencies who aren't good enough. Top teams look at guys like that and see very young men struggling to be the best they can, and seek ways of getting them to a higher level. Could those guys become premiership players? Time and time again, we've seen Sydney, Hawthorn, Geelong etc build men out of boys. The emphasis is on teaching them. Hawthorn's kicking is elite, not just because they recruited good kicks, but because they put hours of development into helping the players they had (Mitchell, Sewell, etc) who couldn't kick become proficient. They build Zac Dawson into a competent players, reclaimed Burgoyne/Lake, etc, and so on. We write Warnock's poor kicking down to a character deficiency, but the truth is, skills can be learnt, and character isn't ingrained in 20 year-olds (it reflects much more on the culture they are in than anything else). No-where is this more apparent than with our elite players. Gibbs was in the leadership group before he'd played a single game. No wonder he hasn't progressed in 5 years - he was annointed as the chosen one and given honours he didn't deserve. Now we criticise him for demanding more than we think he's worth in contract disputes, for holding a station above himself, for failing to show heart and courage on the field that we think is due from a leader? We made him that way as a club, and we reap what we sow. Time and time again we've brought in high-profile recruits from elsewhere - from Kernahan/Bradley, to Judd, to Dale Thomas. That's fine when you get someone who deserves it, but when Warnock, Thomas etc are getting high-profile high salaries over existing players who have bled for the club, that's a problem. Judd was fantastic for us for the benefits he brought to others around him, but if we have to throw money around, we have to be a lot more careful about the message it sends to our group.

The same goes for the coach, to some extent. Malthouse has built teams into premiership contenders before, and can do it again. The biggest concern here is that he seems to lack confidence in the players. If the rumours are that he went to the board prior to the season to tell them about the deficiencies on the list, then he should be sacked - not because we're losing, but because his job is to coach the players up and believe in them, not pull them down. If this is true, he's the wrong person for us, because he reinforces every poor aspect of our culture, just when it needs to shift. If Malthouse genuinely believes he can get the most out of our team, that he can develop our players into a premiership list, we should give him our full support. If he thinks we need to turn over half the list, then we have a real problem, because of the impact it has on the playing group. How hard would anyone work for a boss who has made up his mind to sack them in 6 months time, regardless of performance? The best thing that could be said about Ratten was that he backed his players. To my mind, that's the best thing that can be said about any coach. At this point, I'm not confident with that with Malthouse - and filling his press conferences with ego-boosting rubbish about his 7-straight finals appearances, how 'he can't mark the ball' etc doesn't help that. Press conferences should be spent aggressively defending your players (Alistair Clarkson style). God knows there are enough people tearing our players apart and undermining their confidence right now - the coach is the one person whose job it is to build them up.

In terms of the board, recruiting staff, and everyone else behind the scenes - they need to improve, to make innovation and constant gains towards being the best in the league in 15 years time. Right now, we're a joke. Our membership trails everyone in existence - we laugh at the pet membership other teams have, while they rake in cash we're letting go to waste. We've never really focused on this because we've always had a Dick Pratt or a Bruce Mathieson there to bail us out, but cash flow is king and getting the 80,000 members we should have right now would certainly help us out (for one thing, it makes sure we have bigger crowds even when we're struggling - and that support goes a long way to making the players care). Our recruiting is a well-known joke around the league. Our fitness seems shocking, our specialist coaching don't seem to be working. All this is fine - we have to acknowledge this, acknowledge that the people we have doing these jobs are doing their best and are good people, but use it as a starting point. It means we have to look outside, to learn, to grow and build improved practices and actions at a club. Replacing people won't work if the structures, procedures and culture aren't there to support them. We've learnt that over the last decade. People need to be able to take risks and fail spectacularly, and know that the club won't sack them, that supporters will back them regardless.

That's the key point for me. We have to learn from our mistakes and errors, use them as fuel to grow and improve, not write people off as a result. Good clubs stick together and build. Bad clubs get angry, seek blood, then repeat their mistakes all over again. Right now, we're the latter, and its been killing us for two decades now.

So that's my call. Accept it's going to take 15 years to get back to the top, and so in that time-frame, we need to aim for:
- A reconstruction of the culture of the club, and become one that values and respects its people, where ideas and innovation is valued, and where people grow and develop
- Keep every single one of our current players for 15 years, and retain every player who comes after the current group. Not in the seniors, or even on the list, but make them ours. Value them as people. If Bryce Gibbs leaves at the end of the season, thank him for his service, respect his choice, and invite him back every year to the club even after he is gone. Do the same for anyone who is delisted - welcome them, celebrate them, thank them. Invite back past greats and more importantly, past spuds. Where is Cain Ackland now (and couldn't Robert Warnock use the perspective of someone like that?)? Make Carlton football club a place players want to go to (and not just for money/resources).
- Have the best coaching system of any sporting club in the world in 15 years time. Charge Mick Malthouse with creating that prior to his retirement, and if he doesn't want to, replace him with someone who accepts that responsibility. Not someone who wants to win a premiership, but someone who is genuinely interested in putting to gether a coaching system that will be the best anyone has ever seen, and who acknowledges they'll have to think creatively, research and develop that team for 5-10 years.
- Have the best, most innovative and creative recruitment and development system in the world in 15 years time. Recruit players from the USA, from Ireland, from other sports - or don't... Build a list for the short term, the long term, and the medium term, and have a clear plan about this.
- Aim for 200,000 members - the most in the league. Sign up everyone we can - create new membership categories that don't exist. Play games in Darwin, Auckland, New York, Johannesburg if we have to, and sell memberships there. Become the biggest and most powerful AFL team in the world, and be renowned as the most aggressive, most adventurous, most creative thinking club in this respect
- Aim to play finals every year from year 10-15, and from that point forward, but only after the culture is in place to make that sustainable (otherwise we sacrifice short-term gain for long-term pain, as we've found out time and time again). Aim for the playing group to achieve the absolute best they can, regardless of outcome, in every season up until then. If we play our absolute best, take risks, try new things, and grow and develop as a group, and win only 2 games this year, I'll be excited.

As a final point - this involves us all. I'm making a stand right now, to become the best supporter in the league over the next 15 years. Not by going to the games or whatever, but in the attitude I bring. Supporting the players, the coach, etc. Talking us up but being realistic. Appreciating other clubs for the great things they have done, and pushing out club to overtake them. Enjoying the games when we lose as much as when we win - because after all, this is about entertainment.

 

[Broadside]

wow, great post btdg

I am ready to run through a brick wall for Carlton!

 

[thylacine60]

35 years without a premiership? And you think supporters are impatient now?

 

[HirdyLannister]

Don't mind the intrusion guys but that is a great post btdg

 

[btdg]

35 years without a premiership? And you think supporters are impatient now?

In an 18 team comp, the average is going to be once every 18 years.

We've been a below-average team for the last 20, sadly.

Bear in mind, fellow (current-day) minnows Melbourne (56 years), St Kilda (48 years), Bulldogs (60 years), Richmond (34 years) are all still waiting.

 

[Faz 2000]

btdg - great thoughts and I think an awful lot closer to the truth than most want to hear.

 

[Faz 2000]

In an 18 team comp, the average is going to be once every 18 years.

We've been a below-average team for the last 20, sadly.

Bear in mind, fellow (current-day) minnows Melbourne (56 years), St Kilda (48 years), Bulldogs (60 years), Richmond (34 years) are all still waiting.

Carlton, if it continues to run the way it does today, won't win another one. Fact. They don't hand 'em out, and they can no longer be bought. Change is necessary, in a big big way.

 

[LordLucifer]

If there is a meeting possible where we can vote for an external review, I'm there. Pie in the sky stuff no doubt.

A club-wide review is the ONLY way we will ever get this club straightened up and heading in the right direction.

 

[Mezzoculo]

Where is there left to sell games to now?

We have a few Irish lads on the list...

 

[SBYM]

A club-wide review is the ONLY way we will ever get this club straightened up and heading in the right direction.

Well…either that or Batman.

Unfortunately, I think the latter is the more likely of the two down Royal Pde way...

 

[KennyHunter9]

A reconstruction of the culture of the club, and become one that values and respects its people, where ideas and innovation is valued, and where people grow and develop

I think you've nailed it here.

It will take a seriously capable president and CEO to get us there.

Remember Pratt's "don't get the best available, get the best" mantra? I wish he followed his own advice before allowing Stephen Kernahan to take over.

It is about off-field and on-field leadership and culture. It's not really about the list and its development. That is just the consequence. Fix the fundamentals and we will avoid repeating mistakes and being in the same place in 7 years time.

When GWS and GC had all those concessions that they could trade, and the Pies and other clubs were trading for pre-listed players and under-age players, did anyone seriously think we had a groups of guys at the club pouring over the new rules to see what we could extract? How we could be innovative?

I don't think it needs to take 15 years. Sydney built its new Bloods culture in under 10. Hawthorn built its new culture in 3-4 years following its defining line in the sand game. Port were a basket case, but turned things around quickly.

 

[Tony Lynn 15]

I think you've nailed it here.

It will take a seriously capable president and CEO to get us there.
Remember Pratt's "don't get the best available, get the best" mantra? I wish he followed his own advice before allowing Stephen Kernahan to take over.
It is about off-field and on-field leadership and culture. It's not really about the list and its development. That is just the consequence. Fix the fundamentals and we will avoid repeating mistakes and being in the same place in 7 years time.
When GWS and GC had all those concessions that they could trade, and the Pies and other clubs were trading for pre-listed players and under-age players, did anyone seriously think we had a groups of guys at the club pouring over the new rules to see what we could extract? How we could be innovative?
I don't think it needs to take 15 years. Sydney built its new Bloods culture in under 10. Hawthorn built its new culture in 3-4 years following its defining line in the sand game. Port were a basket case, but turned things around quickly.

Just quietly that may have been a little difficult for him given the circumstances!?

 

[The Flying Doormat]

Let's not overthink things here. It's a game of football. There are problems on and off the field but winning papers over most deficiencies. The best team on the day will win 99% of the time. Either through injury, ability, attitude or strength, we just don't have the cattle.

 

[Stig O'Hara]

Team in trouble on field, coach under pressure, president about to leave, board shifting chairs..........yet another perfect storm brewing.

50 years since the first great one. Can reel off '74, '79 (a flag year can you believe it!!!) '89, half the 2000's as others.

We usually get it right for around 10 or so years ............this one has come a bit early.

 

[Tony Lynn 15]

Team in trouble on field, coach under pressure, president about to leave, board shifting chairs..........yet another perfect storm brewing.
50 years since the first great one. Can reel off '74, '79 (a flag year can you believe it!!!) '89, half the 2000's as others.
We usually get it right for around 10 or so years ............this one has come a bit early.

 

[The Flying Doormat]

worth reading

http://www.theguardian.com/sport/blog/2014/apr/14/carlton-facing-pain-for-a-few-seasons-to-come

 

[Artie Bucco]

As a final point - this involves us all. I'm making a stand right now, to become the best supporter in the league over the next 15 years. Not by going to the games or whatever, but in the attitude I bring. Supporting the players, the coach, etc. Talking us up but being realistic. Appreciating other clubs for the great things they have done, and pushing out club to overtake them. Enjoying the games when we lose as much as when we win - because after all, this is about entertainment.

Magnificent post

 

[El Topo]

worth reading

http://www.theguardian.com/sport/blog/2014/apr/14/carlton-facing-pain-for-a-few-seasons-to-come

For what it's worth, he's wrong about Yaz. Been one of the only positives from the first four rounds.