The tall forward problem

[kfc1]

Hi guys,

I am just wondering what Geelong supports think of the tall forward problem at the Cats. Is it an issue at all? Will it improve when Mooney returns?

Carlton held Hawkins and Pods well all game and it nearly cost you guys the win. This was partly due to the delivery into the forward 50 but also because Hawkins and Pods don't seem to be able to function as KPFs effectively.

Pods did step up to take that crucial mark and goal in the 4th but otherwise was ineffective.

Thoughts?

 

[witsend]

Hi guys,

I am just wondering what Geelong supports think of the tall forward problem at the Cats. Is it an issue at all? Will it improve when Mooney returns?

Carlton held Hawkins and Pods well all game and it nearly cost you guys the win. This was partly due to the delivery into the forward 50 but also because Hawkins and Pods don't seem to be able to function as KPFs effectively.

Pods did step up to take that crucial mark and goal in the 4th but otherwise was ineffective.

Thoughts?

With salary caps, draft concessions etc, no team can have winners across every single line. Geelong comes awfully close. Our defence is AAA list, as is our mid-field. Our small to mid-sized forwards are also AAA. Ottens is an A list ruckman. Our KPFs are patchy but on the cusp. We'll be fine. We won two flags without a dominant KPF.

 

[chimpassgimp]

Moons and Our Tall Forwards

What do people think about our forward setup without Moons? He has always been a presence out there; crashing packs, leading and essentially marking strongly. When he is absent it seems like the structure falls to bits. Obviosuly if he is fit I think his presence up there is incredibly important and will allow either Pods or Hawk to score more goals. Without him...nothing!

 

[fpm84]

Our tall forwards haven't been our strong point since pre-2007, and we've done alright since then!

We've always spread our goalkicking around, and I believe that even without Ablett we have more matchwinners than any other team - Chapman, Johnson, Bartel, Selwood and Ottens have all dragged the team over the line before. Stokes and Varcoe have often proved the difference in close matches (like Varcoe on Friday night, or Stokes v Hawthorn last year).

Of course I'd love Pods or Hawkins to be as dominant as J. Brown or Franklin, but our defence, midfield and small-medium forward line all rank in the top 2-3 in the comp.

 

[thejester]

It's an issue but one we've been dealing with for a while as Mooney slumps from his 07 form.

I think the reality is our current group of tall forwards is run-of-the-mill, Brown is the great white hope but it's unrealistic to expect him to come into the seniors and play consistently well week in, week out this season. Hawkins...maybe the expectation on him was unrealistic. I like him pushing up the ground but I don't like him in the ruck and I think as long as they play him in that role, he's not going to make an impact as a key forward. I'd like to see Pods do better - but that's three game where he's taken a strong mark and kicked the sealer, reflects the fact he's well ahead of Mooney and Hawkins at this stage. Vardy's got a long way to go and ideally you'd rather he was playing the role Hawkins currently is, and the remaining choices - West, Walker, Blake - aren't really choices at all, for a variety of reasons.

 

[Cataholic]

Re: Moons and Our Tall Forwards

What do people think about our forward setup without Moons? He has always been a presence out there; crashing packs, leading and essentially marking strongly. When he is absent it seems like the structure falls to bits. Obviosuly if he is fit I think his presence up there is incredibly important and will allow either Pods or Hawk to score more goals. Without him...nothing!

Moons has been a great servant for the club, and has given our forward line some presence with his attack on the ball. I think he really came into his own for the club when he learned how and when to channel his aggression.

Sadly though, I think his time is up and the forward line will need to function without him by years end.

Pods will likely assume Mooney's role for the next 1 - 2 years, given he hits the packs like Mooney and is the best marking forward we have with senior experience. Hawkins will continue in his current role, but may eventually spend more time forward as Vardy grows into the ruck / forward role.

Vardy is on the way, and if Brown continues his development he'll get an opportunity soon too....barring injury!! I think there is a lot riding on these two making it, because our stocks of tall forwards looks thin without them.

 

[Farmer2Goggin]

Our tall forwards haven't been our strong point since pre-2007, and we've done alright since then!

We've always spread our goalkicking around, and I believe that even without Ablett we have more matchwinners than any other team - Chapman, Johnson, Bartel, Selwood and Ottens have all dragged the team over the line before. Stokes and Varcoe have often proved the difference in close matches (like Varcoe on Friday night, or Stokes v Hawthorn last year).

Of course I'd love Pods or Hawkins to be as dominant as J. Brown or Franklin, but our defence, midfield and small-medium forward line all rank in the top 2-3 in the comp.

Agree with this - IIRC Mooney kicked 60+ in 2007 and this is one reason we were so dominant as we still had the potency with our mid and smalls.
Since then it's become harder as we have had no standout , although Pods was pretty handy last season. I still have faith in Pods to hit the scoreboard harder but it may be too early for Brown or Vardy , jury is out on Hawkins and Moons has done his job but is on the wane. We have our usual suspects in Stokes , Chapman , SJ , Varcoe and our pinch hitters in Bartel, Corey and Ling. So we may have to count on one tall plus these guys and if Menzel and or Duncan can average 1.5 each as the season progresses we might be onto something...........

 

[OldStyle2007]

2 big fixes coming to your screen soon: Vardy and Brown

Plus Menzel can get up and take a grab and the younger mids such as Christensen and Duncan are much more goal savvy than their elders such as Corey and Selwood

The forward line won't be the weakness in the near future

 

[Partridge]

Hi guys,

I am just wondering what Geelong supports think of the tall forward problem at the Cats. Is it an issue at all? Will it improve when Mooney returns?

Carlton held Hawkins and Pods well all game and it nearly cost you guys the win. This was partly due to the delivery into the forward 50 but also because Hawkins and Pods don't seem to be able to function as KPFs effectively.

Pods did step up to take that crucial mark and goal in the 4th but otherwise was ineffective.

Thoughts?

It's a big issue. Mooney was great for us from 2006-2008, and good in 2009. But last year he started slowing down and obviously this year his body is making it really difficult for him to get out there.

Pods has been a great find, but hasn't been able to convert his chances this year, so the output hasn't been as high. Remains our best key forward option, but needs to improve.

Hawkins I like many others have pretty much given up on. Been very patient, but after 4 years has gone backwards. Cannot mark overhead; tries to mark on the chest when leading; whether it's due to his foot injury last year or not I don't know but seems slower now than he used to be. Thanks to modern coaching and management techniques he's been babied for 4 years and never given the rocket he desperately needs. He does have the talent, it seems he does not have either the confidence, aggression or drive to use it. I'd very much like to be wrong.

So unless Brown and Vardy can step up pretty quickly I think once Mooney officially goes we're going to be relying on smalls and medium forwards to kick our goals. If we don't already.

 

[you pick one]

It's a big issue. Mooney was great for us from 2006-2008, and good in 2009. But last year he started slowing down and obviously this year his body is making it really difficult for him to get out there.

Pods has been a great find, but hasn't been able to convert his chances this year, so the output hasn't been as high. Remains our best key forward option, but needs to improve.

Hawkins I like many others have pretty much given up on. Been very patient, but after 4 years has gone backwards. Cannot mark overhead; tries to mark on the chest when leading; whether it's due to his foot injury last year or not I don't know but seems slower now than he used to be. Thanks to modern coaching and management techniques he's been babied for 4 years and never given the rocket he desperately needs. He does have the talent, it seems he does not have either the confidence, aggression or drive to use it. I'd very much like to be wrong.

So unless Brown and Vardy can step up pretty quickly I think once Mooney officially goes we're going to be relying on smalls and medium forwards to kick our goals. If we don't already.[/quote]

Think we do, rough count of 107 goals this season Pods10 Hawk4 Moons0

Cause for some concern Partridge, I agree.

 

[CF]

I agree with what most others have said.

To me the problems are:

PODS fails in the big games too often. OK against lessor teams

Mooney is past it now. Has been great for the club though.

Hawkins is coming on slower than we had hoped. Shows some signs but he may not be the player we want until he has 100 games under his belt.

Vardy/Brown are untried at AFL tempo so too soon to call. VFL form is encouraging.

Ottens is past it as a forward. Kicks more points than anything else.

Medium & small forwards & midfield are our main contributors at the moment.

Geelongs forward line has been suspect for the last 10 years really. So nothing new there.

 

[Turbocat]

Its why Id like to find another seasoned tall ahla Pods.

Long term , Vardy and Brown have potential but even quality takes time , looking Jack Riewoldt and Josh Keneddy that have not just come from nowhere.
We may even try to cherry pick if someone looks good up in GC.


Currently , if Pods suddenly fell over I suspect we would really struggle , and I don't really see any other option atm without upsetting our setup elsewhere.
Taylor for instance.

 

[Gaz_Brownlow]

No real problems to speak of.

Hawkins is looking sharper every game this season.

Pods is doing exactly what we want him to do.

Mooney is still capable and of course we have long term prospects in Mitch Brown and Nathan Vardy.

If anything we are spoilt for choice.

Our forwards number 1 priority is to create contests, we are achieving this at the moment. Whether or not they kick bags is largely irrelevant if we are continually outscoring our opponents week in week out as our 8-0 record will attest to!

 

[Vdubs]

With salary caps, draft concessions etc, no team can have winners across every single line. Geelong comes awfully close. Our defence is AAA list, as is our mid-field. Our small to mid-sized forwards are also AAA. Ottens is an A list ruckman. Our KPFs are patchy but on the cusp. We'll be fine. We won two flags without a dominant KPF.

Mooney was AA CHF in 07, and deservedly so. It's a bit mythical that we had no KF. N Ablett wasn't useless either, at least a focus and demanded a good opponent as he was freakish and unpredictable.

 

[year of the cat]

Whilst it is far from ideal our current situation with regard to tall forwards, it is somewhat reassuring that most recent premiership teams have not relied on a dominant display from a tall forward to get them over the line.

You only have to see that Riewoldt has struggled in all 3 GF's that he has played and Buddy had minimal impact in 2008. WC never relied on a dominant KPF in 2006 and Hall was pretty well held in 2005 despite the Swans getting over the line.

So whilst it would be nice to have 3-4 goal a game KPF it is not absolutely essential in winning a flag.

 

[Goggin Our Best]

I think our lack of tall forwards will bring us undone in September .Hawkins and Pods are not the answer. What we would give for a Jarrard Waite -tall quick athletic and a good pair of hands.I liken our current team to our teams of 80 and 81-those teams just like the present had a terrific defence including a champion fullback Malarkey akin to Scarlet-but it had no key forwards-Middlemiss Johnson Reynoldson Sidebottom were all tried and failed dismally.I think the only chance we could get away with it is if it is wet in September-might neutralize things a bit and we are a great wet weather team.

 

[RegHickeyStand]

Can I also say that our delivery into the forward 50 for the talls to mark isn't exactly inspiring throughout the game either. I can't say if that is because of the forward system, or the midfielders maybe more interested in taking it down there themselves. This season I have seen quite a few times the forward line being starved for a while then finally this woeful, misdirected kick into the 50 and I feel a bit sorry for Pods and Hawkins on those occasions.

 

[Gladbaqs]

I think our lack of tall forwards will bring us undone in September .Hawkins and Pods are not the answer. What we would give for a Jarrard Waite -tall quick athletic and a good pair of hands.

Pods has been pretty good. His goal kicking has been really bad, but his marking and presenting all round the ground has been important for relieving backline pressure.

I won't write off Mooney just yet, either, given that I made the mistake of writing off Ottens and Corey.

And when you say "what we would give for a Jarrad Waite", do you mean what we would give for a talented forward that has taken eight years to mature?

I've said this three or four times now. It's worth repeating. Mooney didn't know what he was doing until he was 26. Pods didn't get invited to Geelong until he was 26. Lonergan finally became valuable and reliable at 26.

Hawkins is 22.

I'm not impressed with Tom just yet. But when you see him forming an enviable partnership with Mitch Brown in four years you'll change your tune.

I know it's a big problem this year. Be great if we could steal Waite after Carlton waited patiently for eight years for him to be this good. And maybe you'll be proved right about our September chances but these things take time. Sorry 'bout that.

 

[STC]

I really would like to get a look at Mitch Brown sometime soon - against the Gold Coast is a perfect opportunity - give Pods a rest and play the future tall timber - Hawkins and Brown. Brown will probably get campaigner and kick 6 on debut. Do it Scotty

 

[witsend]

I really would like to get a look at Mitch Brown sometime soon - against the Gold Coast is a perfect opportunity - give Pods a rest and play the future tall timber - Hawkins and Brown. Brown will probably get campaigner and kick 6 on debut. Do it Scotty

Or Pods gets the campaigner and the confidence he needs...

 

[STC]

Or Pods gets the campaigner and the confidence he needs...

GC aren't that stupid.

 

[Pure_Ownage]

It's a concern but not a massive concern because we have enough non tall goalkicking options.

Obviously Mooney's body is basically done and he's a bit part player at best from here.

Pods has faults, goalkicking at present not the least of them but he kicked the winning goal on the w/e and is clunking marks and playing a very important role in our structure which is exactly what CS wants him to do. Plus he has the marking ability that if and when he does find form, or get more 1 out contests with quick delivery, he will be dangerous. As jester said, he's our best tall forward right now, and I'd add that if he keeps giving his all to split packs it creates goals for others, so I'm happy with how he's tracking, albeit I'd like to see his goalkicking improve.

Hawkins does frustrate me, not because I've given up on him like some, because talls take longer to mature, but because of his unwillingness to hit packs and crash them, his two grab marking and his insistence on marking on his chest-several times friday night the ball got punched away because he didn't try and mark it out in front. I do think that the longer he spends rucking the less he will develop as a forward-I suspect this is part of the reason they are pushing Vardy forward as ideally he takes the second ruck role, Hawkins goes back to key forward and Mooney is out-however it'sa big ask for a second year tall to do that the whole year, so we may have to accept Mooney rucking for now.

Mitch Brown is the great white hope and has loads of talent, and in time will be better than Pods Hawkins etc, but he needs time.

I'd love to find another gun key forward, but as you'll see in this year's draft (ala Patton) they go early and we rarely have those picks. Menzel'
s year so far already shows that key forward or not, our forward line has a good future, and if we can get talls to make a contest, we'll win games from the rest.

I'm more concerned about our depth at the other end (after whenever Scarlo retires) TBH.

 

[Sttew]

Re: Moons and Our Tall Forwards

What do people think about our forward setup without Moons? He has always been a presence out there; crashing packs, leading and essentially marking strongly. When he is absent it seems like the structure falls to bits. Obviosuly if he is fit I think his presence up there is incredibly important and will allow either Pods or Hawk to score more goals. Without him...nothing!

Probably right. In his prime a few years ago Moons was to be feared. If he wasn't kicking goals he was assisting in other's goals.

Until last week Steve Johnson had only kicked 5 majors this season, I think. With SJ spending more time in the middle we have lost the potency of our best performed forward.

 

[you pick one]

[/B]

You only have to see that Riewoldt has struggled in all 3 GF's that he has played and Buddy had minimal impact in 2008. WC never relied on a dominant KPF in 2006 and Hall was pretty well held in 2005 despite the Swans getting over the line.

They may not have kick 3-4 on the day, but all the players you mention above are big hard key forwards and were in good form in there respective year, and capable of tearing a game apart them selves or opening it up for others.

It can be a bit dangerous judging the worth of a key forward on goals kicked alone, especially in a grand final,

 

[meto]

Re: Moons and Our Tall Forwards

Probably right. In his prime a few years ago Moons was to be feared. If he wasn't kicking goals he was assisting in other's goals.

Until last week Steve Johnson had only kicked 5 majors this season, I think. With SJ spending more time in the middle we have lost the potency of our best performed forward.

But aren't we talking about big power forwards, Mitch Brown may never have the body reciliance to play afl, and we passed over Jack Darling in last years' draft, at pick 26 was a gift to the eagles and we chose more mid size of which we have a cupboard full.

One would have to wonder if Geelongs' recruitment isn't concerned with the state of the taller playing group, but is primarily focused on the midfield and running ballcarriers.

I just hope we don't ruin Vardy like Hawkins, turning them into neither effective forwards or rucks.
I'd like to see Vardy play up forward.
If Taylor Walker is available seasons end, best we go get!