Opinion Top 20 of all time

[the distributer]

Would you include Bradman in your Top-20 All-Time Test Cricketers? He did play in the 1930s-1940s afterall.

Has nothing to do with being a dominant player in 'their time'. Bunton was a FREAK footballer/athlete. Make no 'ifs' or 'buts' about it. If he played today, he would be on par with Ablett Jnr/Judd at a MINIMUM... probably even better!

He won a Brownlow in both of his first two VFL seasons. He then came runner-up in his fourth season, before winning it again in his fifth season. After seven seasons of VFL he went to the WAFL and again won their Brownlow equivalent (Sandover Medal) in his first two seasons, before winning it again in his fourth season over there.

In short, he played 11 seasons of the highest grade of state football possible... and was considered the Best Player in the Competition in SIX of those seasons!!! That is un-heard of, and will NEVER be repeated! EVER!


Also, something else to put into perspective as to how freaky an athlete he was: Prior to playing VFL for Fitzroy, Bunton was chosen to play in a Country NSW Cricket XI. This side contained Don Bradman and Archie Jackson (who was considered Bradman's cricket equivalent, before dying in his early 20s from illness). Anyway, long story short... Monty Noble who played Test Cricket was in attendance, and he considered Bunton the equal of Bradman. I think that says enough. Freak athlete... if he played football today, he would still chop the competition up!

Do you ever wonder why 2 of our best sporting icons (Bradman and Pharlap) along with Bunton all played or ran in the same era? fact is lots of kids lost the fathers during the war and ended up having to keep the family, kids as young as 10 were forced to work, they didn't have much time for Footy or Cricket, then the depression hit, food on the table was the priority for most, thousands of kids missed out on sport during that time, the talent pool was severly compromised and there's simply no disputing that, as for Pharlap, most horse trainers went under during the depression, the talent pool dropped there as well, world wide, so i tend to take that era with a grain of salt, doesn't mean you have to.

 

[Monkey King]

But like any comparison between eras, there are always factors that tend to even things out in some way and would have prevented him doing some of the things that are being suggested on here.

I mean, there used to be days so bad when both teams combined would kick 6 goals for the afternoon!

You're spot on! It's not all upside.

 

[HyperAgressiveDonk]

This thread seems to be gaining some legs again... I'll re-post my list from earlier in the thread to get some newer opinions.


A lot of this is based on record and reputation. I've tried to take other state competitions into consideration as well. Anyway, here is my list:

1 - Wayne Carey
2 - Leigh Matthews
3 - Gary Ablett Snr.
4 - Haydn Bunton Snr. (VFL/WAFL)
5 - Tony Lockett
6 - Peter Hudson
7 - Ted Whitten
8 - Graham Farmer (WAFL/VFL)
9 - John Coleman
10- Ian Stewart
11- Barrie Robran (SANFL)
12- Dick Reynolds
13- Bob Skilton
14- Ken Farmer (SANFL)
15- Gordon Coventry
16- Gary Ablett Jnr.
17- Ron Barassi
18- Michael Voss
19- Russell Ebert (SANFL)
20- Stephen Michael (WAFL)

I like you list, but I think Jason Dunstall might sneak in somewhere

Voss being in is something that is spot on. Hudson & GAJs inclusion are also spot on.

Very good list.

 

[mfcrox]

I like you list, but I think Jason Dunstall might sneak in somewhere

Voss being in is something that is spot on. Hudson & GAJs inclusion are also spot on.

Very good list.

Yeah, Dunstall is stiff... I'd have him in a Top-25 list.

I want people's opinions on Robbie Flower. One of the best players ever? I think that if he played at a successful club, he would have been placed in quite few Top-20 lists... but because he played at a club that was a cellar-dweller for his entire career, he isn't held in such a high regard as he probably should.

Whenever he played state representative footy, he was always one of Victoria's best... I think that says a lot about him as a player. Plus he did it all whilst weighing 70kg soaking wet. Haha

 

[stuyd1]

1. G.Ablett snr
2. W.Carey
3. L.Matthews
4. E.J WhittE
5. T. Lockett
6. H. Bunton snr
7. J. Dunstall
8. G. Farmer
9. B. Skilton
10. S. Silvani
11. I. Stewart
12. J. Coleman
13. K. Murray
14. G. Williams
15. J. Nicholls
16. D. Reynolds
17. A. Jesalanko
18. G. Ablett jr
19. C. Judd
20. K. Greig

OK let me have a go at this.

1.GARY ABLETT SNR...FREAK
2.WAYNE CAREY... FREAK
3.LEIGH MATHEWS
4.HADYN BUNTON SNR
5.EJ WHITTEN
6.PETER HUDSON...FREAK
7.JOHN COLEMAN...FREAK
8.TONY LOCKETT
9.IAN STEWART
10.BOB SKILTON
11.KEVIN BARTLETT
12.CHRIS JUDD
13.MICHAEL VOSS
14.GARY ABLETT JNR...FREAK
15.RON BARRASI
16.DICK REYNOLDS
17.ALEX JESALENKO
18.POLLY FARMER
19.MALCOLM BLIGHT...FREAK
20.BRUCE DOULL

ive seen 17 of these players in action. did not see bunton, reynolds or coleman. but from all reports from my father etc etc ,and their records, ive made my jugements.
difficult to decide, especially when you get to the number 20 spot . toss of the coin really, to leave out say, nichols, silvangi,williams,hird,buckley,hart,jackovich,dempsey,flower,wilson,dunstall, etc etc is not easy

 

[stuyd1]

OK let me have a go at this.

1.GARY ABLETT SNR...FREAK
2.WAYNE CAREY... FREAK
3.LEIGH MATHEWS
4.HADYN BUNTON SNR
5.EJ WHITTEN
6.PETER HUDSON...FREAK
7.JOHN COLEMAN...FREAK
8.TONY LOCKETT
9.IAN STEWART
10.BOB SKILTON
11.KEVIN BARTLETT
12.CHRIS JUDD
13.MICHAEL VOSS
14.GARY ABLETT JNR...FREAK
15.RON BARRASI
16.DICK REYNOLDS
17.ALEX JESALENKO
18.POLLY FARMER
19.MALCOLM BLIGHT...FREAK
20.BRUCE DOULL

ive seen 17 of these players in action. did not see bunton, reynolds or coleman. but from all reports from my father etc etc ,and their records, ive made my jugements.
difficult to decide, especially when you get to the number 20 spot . toss of the coin really, to leave out say, nichols, silvangi,williams,hird,buckley,hart,jackovich,dempsey,flower,wilson,dunstall, etc etc is not easy

in addition to my prior post, I rate both Ablett snr and Carey a level above any other on the list.Because, I have never seen any player come close to what these 2 could do in regards to taking a tight game by the scruff of the neck ,totally dominating and creating a win.Even in the 1989 grand final,Ablett did it, yet they still lost.They both did this on numerous occassions, be it in a home and away game or a finals game.Simply freaks at the elite level over a lot of seasons.

 

[liam_13]

Players who could be selected that I've seen and the decade they played in (some played in both or the 80s as well, who cares)

2000's: Judd, Ablett, Scarlett, Goodes, Franklin
90's: Lockett, Williams, Carey, Silvagni, Bereton, Dunstall

edit: Interested to see where Barry Cable sits on an all time list for the more knowledgeable football history people. Has an amazing record in terms of awards

 

[Donakebab]

Brereton played his best footy in the 80's, had two good seasons in the 90's and fell away dramatically.

 

[raskolnikov]

I'm only listing players I've actually seen(circa 1980 on) because listing players I haven't seen is just pure speculation. I'm also not listing players from the SANFL or WAFL because once again it would just be pure speculation:

Wayne Carey
Leigh Matthews
Gary Ablett Sr
Tony Lockett
James Hird
Greg Williams
Gary Ablett Jr
Chris Judd
Robert Harvey
Michael Voss
Adam Goodes
Nathan Buckley
Mark Ricciuto
Tony Modra
Jason Dunstall
Simon Black
Robert Flower
Dustin Fletcher
Matthew Scarlett
Warren Tredrea

 

[Hodgepodge]

strange how you have Ablett number 12 ahead of Franklin yet in other posts started by yourself, you mention how Franklin is already ahead of Ablett as a half forward flank player.

Yes, he has surpassed Ablett in output and in 'very good seasons' in that hf/ff role, but that's just part of Ablett's career, so I wouldn't have Franklin ahead just yet.

 

[Hodgepodge]

Matthews has to be no1, there's just no valid argument to suggest otherwise

Have to agree, but a lot of supporters here didn't actually see him play.

He's No.1 in just about every published list I've seen though.

 

[Badtemperedbadger]

Have to agree, but a lot of supporters here didn't actually see him play.

He's No.1 in just about every published list I've seen though.

No he's not.
and don't ask for a source just do a search on the internet and most lists are split between Ableet Snr, Carey, and Matthews.

Try to be balanced and don't just beleive it to be true because you say it so many times to yourself.

Oh and by the way I actually think Matthews is the best ever.

gee you really are a flog

 

[Monkey King]

Have to agree, but a lot of supporters here didn't actually see him play.

He's No.1 in just about every published list I've seen though.

I saw Lethal play. I know you didn't. The poster you were replying to didn't either. I wax and wane between Lethal and Carey myself. Ablett also comes pretty bloody close. Those who saw him play put Teddy Whitten up there too.

The AFL's official publication celebrating 150 years puts Carey at No.1 as well. So do many others who saw both play. You've got stop being so precious with your hero, he's not the undisputed best player of all-time; he's one of a few who might claim the mantle.

 

[Hodgepodge]

No he's not.
and don't ask for a source just do a search on the internet and most lists are split between Ableet Snr, Carey, and Matthews.

Mark Opolion, Michaelangelo Rucci, the team of Herald Sun football writers who submitted their player of the century to the sports australia hall of fame, all of these voted Matthews No.1. Also the list of the Top 200 published in the Age had Matthews at No.1.

Only Mike Sheahan put him No.2 and even that was more a decision based on the position Carey played.

The AFL's official publication celebrating 150 years puts Carey at No.1 as well.

No, Mike Sheahan does, it's his list. Why don't you call the ranking for what it is? You'll notice that in his explanation for Matthews being No.2 he's only there because of the age old adage that a good big player always beats a good little player. So it's not a judgement on the player as much as it is the position.

 

[Dougy12]

Leigh Matthews would not even get drafted in todays game. Ridiculously overated thug he is.

 

[Hodgepodge]

Leigh Matthews would not even get drafted in todays game.

Why would that be?

I read an article saying that while he would get drafted he wouldn't go no.1 due to the testing at the draft combine, but as far as not getting drafted at all, that's just nonsense.

 

[Jhye Clark 13]

Why would that be?

I read an article saying that while he would get drafted he wouldn't go no.1 due to the testing at the draft combine, but as far as not getting drafted at all, that's just nonsense.

You never seen him play so how would you know.

 

[Cosmic Energy]

It's a good topic for discussion, but I don't know how you even start.

I heard Leigh Matthews say even he wasn't qualified to comment on "the greatest" type discussion of opposition players from his own era because he only saw them once or twice a year, and maybe in the interstate carnivals, and few games were televised. The rest might just be on reputation and match reports. So that begs the question who is qualified to comment? How do you compile a list from people who saw enough of the good players to judge?

Maybe (pre-every game being televised), you can only go on the opinion of players that they played with these players over a reasonable period of time. E.g. I heard Michael McClean saying Doug Hawkins is the best player he ever played with, but Dougy is probably underrated on all time lists.

And re todays game v past eras, I think the lack of big season tallies currently says more about the quality of key forwards than the difficulty of kicking goals. For instance John Coleman kicked his ton after over 10 years of nobody doing it. Then the 50s & 60s were pretty lean until Hudson, Wade & McKenna came along. And then you have the Dunstall/Ablett/Lockett/Modra era of full forwards. Some would say they were easy times to kick goals, but I'd say the tallies say more about the player than the era. The recent four of Dunstall/Ablett etc. were more "complete" forwards than most today, being physically strong, strong in the air, quick on the lead, good on the ground, reasonable shots for goal. Thankfully we have vision of those guys, I mean Modra was doing stuff every week that Jack Riewoldt might do once a year. Pity we don't have much vision of previous eras, to at least get a feel for what say a John Coleman could have done with the benefits of being a full time footballer.

 

[AlibiMonday]

It's a good topic for discussion, but I don't know how you even start.

I heard Leigh Matthews say even he wasn't qualified to comment on "the greatest" type discussion of opposition players from his own era because he only saw them once or twice a year, and maybe in the interstate carnivals, and few games were televised. The rest might just be on reputation and match reports. So that begs the question who is qualified to comment? How do you compile a list from people who saw enough of the good players to judge?

Maybe (pre-every game being televised), you can only go on the opinion of players that they played with these players over a reasonable period of time. E.g. I heard Michael McClean saying Doug Hawkins is the best player he ever played with, but Dougy is probably underrated on all time lists.

And re todays game v past eras, I think the lack of big season tallies currently says more about the quality of key forwards than the difficulty of kicking goals. For instance John Coleman kicked his ton after over 10 years of nobody doing it. Then the 50s & 60s were pretty lean until Hudson, Wade & McKenna came along. And then you have the Dunstall/Ablett/Lockett/Modra era of full forwards. Some would say they were easy times to kick goals, but I'd say the tallies say more about the player than the era. The recent four of Dunstall/Ablett etc. were more "complete" forwards than most today, being physically strong, strong in the air, quick on the lead, good on the ground, reasonable shots for goal. Thankfully we have vision of those guys, I mean Modra was doing stuff every week that Jack Riewoldt might do once a year. Pity we don't have much vision of previous eras, to at least get a feel for what say a John Coleman could have done with the benefits of being a full time footballer.

I've often though something similar to this. Every year each player and coaches should get surveyed on any number of criteria (who was their toughest opponent? who was the player they most feared? who was the best opposition players? who was the most admired player? Highest skilled? etc.) At the end of their career they should get surveyed for the same questions, using the previous years answers as a jog to their earlier days. The condition of the surveys are that they won't be shared for 25 years (adds to the integrity of the answers). This all contributes to HOF lists, peer reviewed lists of the greatest etc.

 

[ivabiggin]

i dont rate mathews at all just my opinion ablett and carey and hird could all change the course of a game loved phil carmen to , keith greg , diesel, judd,ablett jnr will be a great,coleman super freak in his era,hudson a bit below coleman,lockett freak,

 

[the distributer]

i dont rate mathews at all just my opinion ablett and carey and hird could all change the course of a game loved phil carmen to , keith greg , diesel, judd,ablett jnr will be a great,coleman super freak in his era,hudson a bit below coleman,lockett freak,

I take it your screen name isn't refering to your brain?

 

[liam_13]

Still interested in peoples ratings of Barry Cable. I never saw him play, but his record stacks up.

Played 384 senior career games (VFL/WAFL)
Represented state 21 times
3x Sandover medallist
3x BOG in a GF
5x premiership player
8x Best & Fairest (7 for Perth, 1 for North)

In the Hall of fame for Australian football. A legend in the Western Australian hall of fame. Surely that record would see him inducted as a legend of the AFL?

But I never saw him play, well before my time, so just interested to hear from those who did.

 

[Grechmiester]

The ten best players of all-time (any club) are:-


1) Wayne Harmes
2) Wayne Harmes
3) Alex Jesaulenko
4) Wayne Johnston
5) Wayne Harmes
6) John Nicholls
7) Bruce Doull
8) Anthony Koutoufides
9) Greg Williams
10) Chris Judd
11) Stephen Kernahan
12) Ken Hunter
13) Tony Lockett, Leigh Matthews, Wayne Carey, Jason Akermanis, blah, blah, blah...

You have left out Scott Howell, Mario Bortolotto, Geoff Hocking and the best one of them all... Wow Jones!

Honourary mention to Ricky Nixon.

 

[the distributer]

Still interested in peoples ratings of Barry Cable. I never saw him play, but his record stacks up.

Played 384 senior career games (VFL/WAFL)
Represented state 21 times
3x Sandover medallist
3x BOG in a GF
5x premiership player
8x Best & Fairest (7 for Perth, 1 for North)

In the Hall of fame for Australian football. A legend in the Western Australian hall of fame. Surely that record would see him inducted as a legend of the AFL?

But I never saw him play, well before my time, so just interested to hear from those who did.

No, great player but worthy of top 20 IMO.

 

[Dom PC]

Voss >>> Buckley

The Distributer you need to move on... and crawl out of that 2002 - 2003 anti-Brisbane lions hole you seem to still live in.

Buckley played more time in the midfield than Voss as Brisbane had a far better mid than the pies... of course meaning Buckley spent all day following the ball. Therefore Buckley's 2003 stats are inflated compared for Voss's.

Buckley "would have struggled to get a game" at the lions in 01,02,03.

Pull the Collingwood poll out would you.