Strategy Trade and List management Thread Part 2 (opposition supporters - READ posting rules before posting)

[Mojorisin]

Liam baker holding out on signing a 2 year contract with Richmond in search of more game time. Doubt he will be the only small forward on their list looking for more opportunities

 

[ThirdLegUp]

Hartley would be a massive upgrade on Trengove. We'd lose a bit of versatility given he's not a ruckman, but Hartley won't get outmuscled, is a decent kick and very good 1 on 1. Honestly at most clubs he'd be getting regular games, it just so happens that Essendon have too much depth in that area. Will be similar to Lloyd in that he can't get regular games at his original club, but can join us and become a vital player

Yep, my comment was in defense of your post, Hartley is not a big name, but is above average in the skills department for a defender and has good defensive knack. So would be a considerable upgrade on both Trengove and Cordy. true, Lloyd is a good example of what a no one can bring if he has the required assets.

Sure we love a Crozier type, who performs above and beyond any fair expectations as he finds a new lease on life, but we would benefit massively from another Lloyd type story in our defense. WOuld be like night and day.

 

[Charlie Bucket]

He's certainly not better than Naughton, probably on par with Trengove. Trengove spent all pre-season in the ruck.

Our KPD depth terrible though and a freebie to help would be a positive.

Freebie depth I don’t mind but it just seems we’re bringing in the quality that’s there abouts with what we already have.

Trenners, Cordy, Young, Fletch, not a lot between them as defenders. Some are going better than the others but if you were scoring across multiple kpis none would be head and shoulders above the rest imo.
My issue with Hartley is that he slots straight in along side those 4 mentioned and then we have 5 defenders that aren’t exactly world beaters ( currently, for Cordy and Young ).
Maybe I haven’t seen enough of him recently, I don’t know.
I’d love, if he did come in, to become the kpd we need though. I was wrong about how Lloyd would impact the team, I’d be happy if it was also the case for Harltey.

 

[Del165892]

Freebie depth I don’t mind but it just seems we’re bringing in the quality that’s there abouts with what we already have.

Trenners, Cordy, Young, Fletch, not a lot between them as defenders. Some are going better than the others but if you were scoring across multiple kpis none would be head and shoulders above the rest imo.
My issue with Hartley is that he slots straight in along side those 4 mentioned and then we have 5 defenders that aren’t exactly world beaters ( currently, for Cordy and Young ).
Maybe I haven’t seen enough of him recently, I don’t know.
I’d love, if he did come in, to become the kpd we need though. I was wrong about how Lloyd would impact the team, I’d be happy if it was also the case for Harltey.

If Hartley was a good player he would be getting regular games and Hooker would be playing forward. You're spot on, he's handy depth but that's it. Slight downgrade on Trengove.

 

[Virgin Dog]

So many people here seem content to settle for a mediocre KPD as a satisfactory solution. At least that's how Hartley looks from (most) descriptions above.

I think that's a mistake. We need some quality. If we get someone in who is roughly equivalent to a Cordy or a Trengove who many people seem to be rating as fringe players then we have the definitive list-clogger - a player who doesn't add much, if anything, to what we already have and who occupies a list spot and salary for at least the next two years.

My apologies to Hartley if he's really quite a bit better than that, but it's not how it sounds so far.

To my mind we either draft/trade for a quality KPD or we stick with what we've got. Let's not forget that when our midfield is working well our defence has help up pretty well in recent weeks. As an example we let Geelong score 133 pts earlier in the year which shows what they are capable of. But a few weeks ago we held them to 55 points.

We also have Lewis Young and Buku Khamis coming through, with Gardner and Fletch Roberts as back-up.

... oh, and there's a bloke called Aaron something-or-other who's shown a bit as a defender too ...

You could almost word-for-word have said the same thing about us not touching Lloyd last year though. As it turns out, someone who doesn't exactly shine at one club can completely break out when put in a different system.

Hartley is having to compete with the likes of Hurley and Hooker for a spot as a KPD, whereas he wouldn't have that competition at our club. When given the chance to play at AFL level this year, he's been very good in his limited number of games. He'd be a huge improvement on both Cordy and Trengove, for what it's worth. He may not be an Alex Pearce, Jeremy McGovern or Michael Hurley, but not every player can be.

Unfortunately, what we've got is a bunch of undeveloped kids (Young and Khamis), or players who are basically done in the AFL system (Fletch). We need a mature stopper who will help prevent our defence from leaking stupid goals to dominant key forwards. In the meantime, Young and Khamis will continue to develop in the VFL, with Young hopefully making his way into the side throughout the course of next year. As it stands, there are no big name KPDs on the market, and if we don't find some way to improve our KPD stocks, we are going to be stuck with Cordy + Trengove once again come round 1, which would be a huge mistake

 

[Mofra]

Freebie depth I don’t mind but it just seems we’re bringing in the quality that’s there abouts with what we already have.

Trenners, Cordy, Young, Fletch, not a lot between them as defenders. Some are going better than the others but if you were scoring across multiple kpis none would be head and shoulders above the rest imo.
My issue with Hartley is that he slots straight in along side those 4 mentioned and then we have 5 defenders that aren’t exactly world beaters ( currently, for Cordy and Young ).
Maybe I haven’t seen enough of him recently, I don’t know.
I’d love, if he did come in, to become the kpd we need though. I was wrong about how Lloyd would impact the team, I’d be happy if it was also the case for Harltey.

TBH I see Trengove a bit ahead of the others especially in terms of taking the no 1 KPD, he's kept quite a few no 1 KPFs quiet this year.
Cordy isn't a no 1 KPD, he's just not big enough. I'd prefer him to take the third but right now he takes the second.
Young is raw, really really raw. The kid's only 20 and he's just not ready yet.
I love Fletch but let's be honest, he's a battler. Slow, but cuts the angles enough to compete. Not quite strong enough to take the no 1.

For mine Hartley comes in and takes Fletch's spot and gives Young (and whoever else we draft) time to develop. He doesn't have to be a world-beater, just serviceable.

 

[Charlie Bucket]

You could almost word-for-word have said the same thing about us not touching Lloyd last year though. As it turns out, someone who doesn't exactly shine at one club can completely break out when put in a different system.

Hartley is having to compete with the likes of Hurley and Hooker for a spot as a KPD, whereas he wouldn't have that competition at our club. When given the chance to play at AFL level this year, he's been very good in his limited number of games. He'd be a huge improvement on both Cordy and Trengove, for what it's worth. He may not be an Alex Pearce, Jeremy McGovern or Michael Hurley, but not every player can be.

Unfortunately, what we've got is a bunch of undeveloped kids (Young and Khamis), or players who are basically done in the AFL system (Fletch). We need a mature stopper who will help prevent our defence from leaking stupid goals to dominant key forwards. In the meantime, Young and Khamis will continue to develop in the VFL, with Young hopefully making his way into the side throughout the course of next year. As it stands, there are no big name KPDs on the market, and if we don't find some way to improve our KPD stocks, we are going to be stuck with Cordy + Trengove once again come round 1, which would be a huge mistake

The big glaring difference is that Lloyd had considerable form at the top level. Something Hartley hasn’t had yet.

 

[Charlie Bucket]

TBH I see Trengove a bit ahead of the others especially in terms of taking the no 1 KPD, he's kept quite a few no 1 KPFs quiet this year.
Cordy isn't a no 1 KPD, he's just not big enough. I'd prefer him to take the third but right now he takes the second.
Young is raw, really really raw. The kid's only 20 and he's just not ready yet.
I love Fletch but let's be honest, he's a battler. Slow, but cuts the angles enough to compete. Not quite strong enough to take the no 1.

For mine Hartley comes in and takes Fletch's spot and gives Young (and whoever else we draft) time to develop. He doesn't have to be a world-beater, just serviceable.

That’s pretty much how I see the defenders we have.
If he’s taking Fletch’s spot, that’s fine, I just hope we’re still looking to improve that line.

What’s Corr like ? He an upgrade on all those mentioned ?

 

[Virgin Dog]

The thing about Hartley is that he's not getting games thanks to sitting behind Hurley and Hooker. We don't have anywhere near that calibre of KPDs, so it's impossible to compare our players properly to Hartley. I'm sure our recruiters will do their due diligence, and if they think there is something to work with, we'll make an offer. If not, then that's fine too. In reality, Trengove is a decent enough KPD, and gets unfairly criticised by some people. I'd rate Hartley as being at least on his level, minus the ability to compete well in the ruck, but adding the ability to actually kick short distances properly without gifting the opposition freebies.

We have done extremely well picking up players on the cheap and getting the best out of them (Duryea, Crozier, Lloyd) so I feel like getting Hartley as a free agent is a no-brainer if he's even on par with Trengove

 

[Mojorisin]

Would much prefer day as that kpp

 

[Virgin Dog]

That’s pretty much how I see the defenders we have.
If he’s taking Fletch’s spot, that’s fine, I just hope we’re still looking to improve that line.

What’s Corr like ? He an upgrade on all those mentioned ?

Corr is better than all mentioned tbh, but he's got a huge injury cloud over him. If we can keep his body right long term, then he'd be a great target. Very good closing speed on him, which is something all of our current KPDs entirely lack

 

[Virgin Dog]

Would much prefer day as that kpp

Signing on with Gold Coast supposedly, so I doubt he'll be on the market when it hits trade time

 

[Mojorisin]

Signing on with Gold Coast supposedly, so I doubt he'll be on the market when it hits trade time

I heard the same but can never be sure until a deal is made. Would deffinetly be happier to sign. Ow that he is back in the 1s

 

[Virgin Dog]

Liam baker holding out on signing a 2 year contract with Richmond in search of more game time. Doubt he will be the only small forward on their list looking for more opportunities

With Freo chasing him, seems more likely he ends up there. Would be great to try and take one of him or Bolton if possible, surely Freo doesn't chase both

 

[ThirdLegUp]

So many people here seem content to settle for a mediocre KPD as a satisfactory solution. At least that's how Hartley looks from (most) descriptions above.

I think that's a mistake. We need some quality. If we get someone in who is roughly equivalent to a Cordy or a Trengove who many people seem to be rating as fringe players then we have the definitive list-clogger - a player who doesn't add much, if anything, to what we already have and who occupies a list spot and salary for at least the next two years.

My apologies to Hartley if he's really quite a bit better than that, but it's not how it sounds so far.

To my mind we either draft/trade for a quality KPD or we stick with what we've got. Let's not forget that when our midfield is working well our defence has help up pretty well in recent weeks. As an example we let Geelong score 133 pts earlier in the year which shows what they are capable of. But a few weeks ago we held them to 55 points.

We also have Lewis Young and Buku Khamis coming through, with Gardner and Fletch Roberts as back-up.

... oh, and there's a bloke called Aaron something-or-other who's shown a bit as a defender too ...

Hartley quite a bit better then both Cordy and Trengove, Dogwatch, he just isn't a world beater, nor is he getting enough games to prove it if he was. Trengove is a filler, a stop gap, and Cordy is a back up in the fletcher Roberts class, but our lack of experienced and ready depth in that part of the field has made them straight up starters. That fella called Aaron you mention was a great step in addressing the issue... but turns out he could also fix another issue that the MC obviously though was more pressing, given the fix for that area, Schache was going to take time, and Boyd was dead in the water. So back at square one on the defensive fix. With Wood promising to only slow down and get worse, suckers probably cooked and 2 fillers taking up best 22 spots... defense is a real issue for us. I'd love a gun as would everyone else, but our war chest may need to be spread thinner then we think to fix quite a few issues.

There is no room for a 4th year of missing finals, the club might say one thing publicly, but internally, everyone will know what time it is. Throwing the war chest at one player, i don't care who it is, will not fix our issues which cover the length of the field. Although i think our issues span the entire field, i don't think they need a gun to fix, but a few more soldiers, consistant soldiers who do the simple things well, we have a hand full guns already, we need them bolstered. It would stop the inconsistency, stop the defensive leaking, and do a world of good for confidence and belief team wide.

 

[dogwatch]

You could almost word-for-word have said the same thing about us not touching Lloyd last year though. As it turns out, someone who doesn't exactly shine at one club can completely break out when put in a different system.

Hartley is having to compete with the likes of Hurley and Hooker for a spot as a KPD, whereas he wouldn't have that competition at our club. When given the chance to play at AFL level this year, he's been very good in his limited number of games. He'd be a huge improvement on both Cordy and Trengove, for what it's worth. He may not be an Alex Pearce, Jeremy McGovern or Michael Hurley, but not every player can be.

Unfortunately, what we've got is a bunch of undeveloped kids (Young and Khamis), or players who are basically done in the AFL system (Fletch). We need a mature stopper who will help prevent our defence from leaking stupid goals to dominant key forwards. In the meantime, Young and Khamis will continue to develop in the VFL, with Young hopefully making his way into the side throughout the course of next year. As it stands, there are no big name KPDs on the market, and if we don't find some way to improve our KPD stocks, we are going to be stuck with Cordy + Trengove once again come round 1, which would be a huge mistake

I did note you were one of the ones who rate Hartley, so I hope you're right (if we get him).

I actually rate Trengove higher than many others here, though. He's not fashionable but currently he's reasonably effective and can take on the big forwards. So if we didn't land a good KPD it's not quite a disaster. I do agree that Cordy is better as a third tall defender. He can get exposed against the primary tall forwards.

On a side note, I'm amused that quite a few people (not just you) are saying there are no quality KPDs to be had right now. I don't disagree at all, but anyway that's for another thread ...

 

[Mofra]

That’s pretty much how I see the defenders we have.
If he’s taking Fletch’s spot, that’s fine, I just hope we’re still looking to improve that line.

What’s Corr like ? He an upgrade on all those mentioned ?

If Corr stays fit he's the perfect no 2 forward as a defender. Quick. Not sure of his disposal.

 

[Charlie Bucket]

Corr is better than all mentioned tbh, but he's got a huge injury cloud over him. If we can keep his body right long term, then he'd be a great target. Very good closing speed on him, which is something all of our current KPDs entirely lack

GWS seem to have injuries written in to their players contracts, so not overly concerned. Plus we’re starting to get a handle on our injuries from recent years. Apart from some structural issues, our medos and physios seem to be doing a decent job. I’d be confident we’d get plenty of games out him.

 

[Mojorisin]

With Freo chasing him, seems more likely he ends up there. Would be great to try and take one of him or Bolton if possible, surely Freo doesn't chase both

I like Bolton roaming up on the wing, is also take butler.

 

[Mofra]

With Wood promising to only slow down and get worse, suckers probably cooked and 2 fillers taking up best 22 spots... defense is a real issue for us. I'd love a gun as would everyone else, but our war chest may need to be spread thinner then we think to fix quite a few issues.

TBH I think the nucleus is there. I have huge wraps on Lachie Young after seeing look a class above at VFL level (to say the least) after one year in the system. For mine he's going to be a gem when he hits that magical 50 game mark, by which stage I expect Woody would have retired.
Richards would be settled on a position by then - either wing or rebounding defender, and Croz should still be going strong.
If Lewie Young can improve the speed of his decision making with the ball in hand he'll do nicely for us, but he really is so young for a 197cm kid.

 

[ThirdLegUp]

If Hartley was a good player he would be getting regular games and Hooker would be playing forward. You're spot on, he's handy depth but that's it. Slight downgrade on Trengove.

lol come on scrag, the half eaten packet of no name pringles on my desk is an upgrade on trengove. let alone Hartley. Cordy is still making his way to spoil that mark in the 3rd quarter for crying out loud.

 

[Virgin Dog]

I did note you were one of the ones who rate Hartley, so I hope you're right (if we get him).

I actually rate Trengove higher than many others here, though. He's not fashionable but currently he's reasonably effective and can take on the big forwards. So if we didn't land a good KPD it's not quite a disaster. I do agree that Cordy is better as a third tall defender. He can get exposed against the primary tall forwards.

On a side note, I'm amused that quite a few people (not just you) are saying there are no quality KPDs to be had right now. I don't disagree at all, but anyway that's for another thread ...

I don't want to give the impression that Hartley is going to absolutely dominate, but I do firmly believe he would make our defence a lot better. As you mentioned, Cordy is far better as the 3rd defender, and he is underperforming thanks to being forced to play a role he's not suited for. Similar to how Wood's form dropped when tasked with manning up on the bigger key forwards, but suddenly he improved when freed up to roam the defence and intercept.

In terms of quality KPDs, there's not really anyone major out of contract, but of course there are still plenty who may be tempted (as we see every year - trade period isn't exclusively for out of contract players). There were strong rumours a couple months back, coming from a reputable source on the Carlton board who has had very good mail in the past, that we are making serious plays for Weitering. This has then been backed up by other users (although that could just be attention seekers piling in). If we could land Weitering, then Hartley is unnecessary, but if we can't land any big names, we really can't go wrong with Hartley. He's not in the VFL because he's not good enough, he's simply there because Essendon have better options right now. He'd cost us very little in cap space, and nothing in draft picks, so I see no harm with taking the opportunity

 

[Mojorisin]

I don't want to give the impression that Hartley is going to absolutely dominate, but I do firmly believe he would make our defence a lot better. As you mentioned, Cordy is far better as the 3rd defender, and he is underperforming thanks to being forced to play a role he's not suited for. Similar to how Wood's form dropped when tasked with manning up on the bigger key forwards, but suddenly he improved when freed up to roam the defence and intercept.

In terms of quality KPDs, there's not really anyone major out of contract, but of course there are still plenty who may be tempted (as we see every year - trade period isn't exclusively for out of contract players). There were strong rumours a couple months back, coming from a reputable source on the Carlton board who has had very good mail in the past, that we are making serious plays for Weitering. This has then been backed up by other users (although that could just be attention seekers piling in). If we could land Weitering, then Hartley is unnecessary, but if we can't land any big names, we really can't go wrong with Hartley. He's not in the VFL because he's not good enough, he's simply there because Essendon have better options right now. He'd cost us very little in cap space, and nothing in draft picks, so I see no harm with taking the opportunity

We had asked the question on weitering. He won't be leaving Carlton though unless they get offered something ridiculous

 

[Virgin Dog]

We had asked the question on weitering. He won't be leaving Carlton though unless they get offered something ridiculous

I'm completely fine with offering our first this year plus steak knives. He's still got a few years on the contract though, so they'd likely just shut the door in our faces and leave it at that. Money would be no issue for us

 

[dogwatch]

Didn't Adams re-sign with us just before he went to Brisbane?

Someone did anyway. My point being that these days - more than in the past - a recently signed contract isn't a guarantee that the player is locked away or "ungettable".

In some ways the renewal can be a smart move for both club and player, even if both are anticipating a move.