Strategy Trade and List management Thread Part 2 (opposition supporters - READ posting rules before posting)

[Senor Ed]

Allegations of mismanagement, and some peopel being very difficult to work for.

Interestingly each club is extremely different in their approach. The chat on Tuesday (an industry professional, he's close with the Hawthorn Football Club and keeps in contact with their staff and an ex-Bulldogs staff member and a Brisbane staffer) highlighted just how different the clubs are. From what I can gather (including other chats):

- North have a pretty good record with injuries and they do very little weights, overwhelming focus on body weight and functional movement.
- Brisbane on the other hand are one of the more weight-heavy clubs and also have an excellent injury record
- The Hawks have almost a 'choose your own adventure' type set up were they have a variety of professionals available (osteos, physios, chiros, myops, etc) and players go to the person they feel works best for them. People are a big fan of this approach.
- Our VU staff are excellent, we actually re-taught Wood how to run over the 2015 pre-season. The year he won the B&F.

I can't go into too much Bulldog detail here though.

Majak Daw must only do handstand pushups then hahahhaha

Booooo was hoping to learn what actually do.

 

[compact72]

Cheer up peepz

Not like we're going to China

 

[BRWB]

This is my take - will try answer all these questions:

1. There was a meeting in the week after the GF win with senior football staff, that the current list in 2016 would not be able to perform at a level high enough for sustainable success & therefore the club would plan for the future. This meeting was attended by Bevo, Chris Grant, McCartney, Dalrymple et al. The GF win consisted of veterans (who would not be at the club in the medium term) and young kids who seemingly performed out of their skins.

2. Medical staff - this puzzles me. We've had some freak unavoidable injuries over the last few years. In terms of bone stress injuries, a lot of these seem to appear out of nowhere and are managable but from memory our soft tissue injuries havent been minor ones. When we do a hamstring, we seem to rip them off the bone ready for Xmas.

3. We arent able to recruit A grade players because we are not an attractive club to go to. There is always negative news about us (whether true or not), historically we are not successful, and are not a very commercially viable place for players to boost their profiles. We're no big club.

4. We are paying overs for a few players. T Boyd definitely. Why can't we renegotiate? Becuase why should the players. Im sure BRWB, if your employer asked you to take a paycut or change the terms of your employment for the worse, you wouldnt agree. Remember the outrage when fairwork contracts came in? Would i like to renegotiate Boyds contract? Yes. Would i do that same contract again? In a heartbeat.

Of those three players, I'd say Mitch was the only heart and soul player. Has always busted his gut and bleeds for the dogs. You talk about the club overpaying players, yet you want to pay more for Wallis as he is 'heart and soul'? Where has he finished in the clubs B and F during his whole career? Has he ever finished top 10? His career was on the crossroads earlier in the year and good on him on earning his new contract and turning it around. His game obviously has flaws but i am rapt he has decided to stay.

Dahl - hasnt strung together good games in 2 years. His close friendship with Libba doesn't really spell good things for me.

Libba - he's an issue. Could be anything. Would rather be an off-centre attention seeker than a dedicated footballer. He may train the house down but what he does off the field is impacting what he does on the field, then he'd be winning every single b and f. And he wouldnt be in a contract impasse with ANY club. There wasn't any takers for him during the trade period. Football is not his priority.

4. Adams from all reports was a loner at the club. Different cat with not many mates other than T Campbell. Also hasn't exactly played a large number of games. Talented as **** and built like a statue. Unfortunately the statue is made from papier mache.

Some good insights there, appreciate the response.

I'm suggesting the club has not offered market rate while other players receive well above market rate (not that we should overpay). I've come to the conclusion that Dahl's form drop was largely motivational. His game against Geelong in July was as good as his 16 and early 17 form where he was talked up as AA. His own comments suggesting he wanted a fresh start send a similar message. The great dynastic teams just haven't had very good players walk out on them (or move them on) in their prime. In Adams, Stringer and Dahl, we have lost three.

Writing off Adams as a loner or different cat, Libba as 'not footy' focussed and Dahl as 'too close to Libba' still seems to be blaming the individual. What about Biggs' amazing drop off? What about the going backwards or plateauing of a host of young players led by Dale, Boyd and Daniel? What about Roughead's drop off? There are too many individual failures for this to be blamed on individuals IMO. There is a larger pattern at play and at some stage the club and management have to be asked why, and steps taken.

Medically speaking bone stress injuries occur due to poor load management ie the management by fitness and conditioning staff. Three in one year is not freakishly unlucky or about unlucky individuals, its a pattern that indicates incompetence bordering on negligence.

A pretty much debt free, financially stable club based in one of the fastest growing areas in Australia. A young team winning a flag with young stars like Bont and Macrae should have had mature A graders wanting a final lick of the premiership ice cream salivating at the chance to come to us. I don't accept the historical mediocrity stuff as a reasonable explanation for them not coming. Sounds like an excuse.

'Build it and they will come' - we have and they haven't. Why?

We should have leveraged off the success of 16, instead we have lost our gun recruiter (we again blamed the individual saying he didn't play well with others or was a credit hog), lost a CEO, lost a footy manager, lost a list manager, lost a number of very good players, failed to attract any A grade talent, maintained an almost laughably bad injury list, and missed finals in two consecutive years.

While I appreciate your insight, the blaming of individuals rather than the effective management of said individuals to maximise performance is an indictment on the management at the club IMO. Sorry but there just seems to be too many cases of 'so and so is no good' rather than looking at why 'so and so is no good' when at some point they were very good.

 

[Mofra]

The great dynastic teams just haven't had very good players walk out on them (or move them on) in their prime. In Adams, Stringer and Dahl, we have lost three.

Buddy Franklin?
Gaz Jnr?
Geelong lost Mumford, not sure he's in the same category.

 

[Roscoe_au]

Does Menzel play in front of Dickson? I'm not certain he does...and both are prone to injury.

You can't play both.

 

[BRWB]

Buddy Franklin?
Gaz Jnr?
Geelong lost Mumford, not sure he's in the same category.

After they had already won multiple flags

 

[Roscoe_au]

Buddy Franklin?
Gaz Jnr?
Geelong lost Mumford, not sure he's in the same category.

Sydney have lost Jetta, Spangher, Biggs, Bird, Nankervis, Mitchell (a number of others like Everitt etc.) between 2012 and 2017 and have remained relatively successful during that time. Interesting that most of the names mentioned have a GF medal playing at their next club. One has a Charlie.

 

[Mofra]

After they had already won multiple flags

That's a fairly big caveat. I'd ask who are the actual 'very good players' who walked out on us in their prime?
The only one I can think of was Griffen, and things worked out far better for us than they did for him.

Arguably Dahlhaus who has an elite trait (pressure) but he certainly wasn't the player he was two years earlier and with Richards and West coming in we can cover him sooner rather than later.

 

[Northernsoul74]

Allegations of mismanagement, and some peopel being very difficult to work for.

Interestingly each club is extremely different in their approach. The chat on Tuesday (an industry professional, he's close with the Hawthorn Football Club and keeps in contact with their staff and an ex-Bulldogs staff member and a Brisbane staffer) highlighted just how different the clubs are. From what I can gather (including other chats):

- North have a pretty good record with injuries and they do very little weights, overwhelming focus on body weight and functional movement.
- Brisbane on the other hand are one of the more weight-heavy clubs and also have an excellent injury record
- The Hawks have almost a 'choose your own adventure' type set up were they have a variety of professionals available (osteos, physios, chiros, myops, etc) and players go to the person they feel works best for them. People are a big fan of this approach.
- Our VU staff are excellent, we actually re-taught Wood how to run over the 2015 pre-season. The year he won the B&F.

I can't go into too much Bulldog detail here though.

Explains why Adams chose Brisbane then. He can just pump iron 24/7.

 

[Mofra]

Explains why Adams chose Brisbane then. He can just pump iron 24/7.

I find it mystifying, given they had issues with their admin centre begin separate to other training facilities for so long. They have attracted quite a bit of talent in recent times though - Charlie Cameron and Lachie Neale are good gets.

 

[BRWB]

That's a fairly big caveat. I'd ask who are the actual 'very good players' who walked out on us in their prime?
The only one I can think of was Griffen, and things worked out far better for us than they did for him.

Arguably Dahlhaus who has an elite trait (pressure) but he certainly wasn't the player he was two years earlier and with Richards and West coming in we can cover him sooner rather than later.

That is the whole point. Why haven't we been able to manage players to maximise performance?

Dahlhaus was for a few years elite, not elite trait - elite. Before injury in 17 he was close to AA and had previously made the AA squad. Teams were literally trying to knock him out on a weekly basis. Why wasn't he the player he was two years previously? Why couldn't we manage him to perform? Same goes for Stringer and Libba who on form are elite. I mean who was the Libba impersonator in 17? What happened to them?

Adams was in the AFL team of the week multiple times when he started. What happened that led to his form drop and wanting to leave? Injuries...something else?

What happened to the host of kids on the cusp of greatness?

Was Clay Smith medically managed properly?

We also lost Graeme Lowe our footy manager. Hired as a consultant to Carlton, what do they do? Poach the Hawks' medical guy.

Look at Dalrymple. IMO a gun recruiter. We couldn't manage him to keep him. Where does he go? To a great dynastic club in the Swans. Swans, Geelong and the Hawks have kept their main recruitment guys for years if not for more than a decade, Wright, Wells and Beatson.

Yes we can blame the individual. But IMO it is happening too often.

Sorry but the great dynastic clubs don't often lose gun players and staff, they recruit them, while we blame the individual who leaves and wonder why no one wants to come to us except for blokes on their training wheels like Power or players of the ilk of Sam Lloyd and Duryea.

 

[Senor Ed]

That is the whole point. Why haven't we been able to manage players to maximise performance?

Dahlhaus was for a few years elite, not elite trait - elite. Before injury in 17 he was close to AA and had previously made the AA squad. Teams were literally trying to knock him out on a weekly basis. Why wasn't he the player he was two years previously? Why couldn't we manage him to perform? Same goes for Stringer and Libba who on form are elite. I mean who was the Libba impersonator in 17? What happened to them?

Adams was in the AFL team of the week multiple times when he started. What happened that led to his form drop and wanting to leave? Injuries...something else?

What happened to the host of kids on the cusp of greatness?

Was Clay Smith medically managed properly?

We also lost Graeme Lowe our footy manager. Hired as a consultant to Carlton, what do they do? Poach the Hawks' medical guy.

Look at Dalrymple. IMO a gun recruiter. We couldn't manage him to keep him. Where does he go? To a great dynastic club in the Swans. Swans, Geelong and the Hawks have kept their main recruitment guys for years if not for more than a decade, Wright, Wells and Beatson.

Yes we can blame the individual. But IMO it is happening too often.

Sorry but the great dynastic clubs don't often lose gun players and staff, they recruit them, while we blame the individual who leaves and wonder why no one wants to come to us except for blokes on their training wheels like Power.

Dahlhaus played 22 games in 2017.

 

[BRWB]

Dahlhaus played 22 games in 2017.

Sorry maybe it was 16, but that doesn't change the point. He was elite or close enough for teams to want to knock him out. Then for two years we get doughnuts except for his Geelong job interview game. Why?

 

[Mofra]

That is the whole point. Why haven't we been able to manage players to maximise performance?

Haven't we?
We got a bunch of kids with a few guys on their last legs to win a flag just two years ago.

As a reminder, our defensive seven were: Pick 43, a PSD pick, a DFA, and four former rookies.
The player of our finals series? Picken -a former rookie. Overall we have been maximising most of the talent on our list far better than most clubs.

Another case study: Macrae vs the kid we almost took instead (Mayes). Mayes has struggled to a middling career at Brisbane, and traded for a second round pick to Port. Macrae is one of the competition's elite.
Our Norm Smith medallist (who turned down a monster offer from Freo) was a rookie.
Dahl (who we are debating) - a rookie.

Clubs with a higher average age than us, with more first round draft picks, were just awarded draft concessions for prolonged shitness. We're actually ahead of the curve given our list and age profile. Now I did post that we still do have some issues among our medical department that need fixing but the debate seems to be along the lines of the club in it's current state being akin to October 2014. Things are nowhere near that bad.

 

[lachy]

Makes sense. As a business person you will know this, and as a footy fan even more so. You can't sack all the players or staff, at some point a critical mass is reached of people/staff underperforming and management is moved on. That is the way it goes.

A flag with a young injured list in 16 and finals missed in the following two yrs suggests massive underperformance.

While individuals can keep being singled out and moved (or like Adams ask to go), at some point accountability for underperformance needs to be pointed at club management

Why is management seemingly unable to create an environment that consistently maximizes performance?

Once enough people move on, once enough people refuse point blank to come to the club, once enough people continually underperform, management must be looked at.

Why for instance are medical and conditioning people not being brutalized for allowing three bone stress injuries and recurrent hamstrings to occur on their watch this yr, on top of the previous two seasons of shit?

Why aren't we able to recruit A geade players when our list build screams out for it?

Why are we overpaying some extreme non performers? Why haven't their contracts been re negotiated? At the same time why are we appparently lowballing heart and soul players like Wallis, Dahl and Libba ? Why haven't we got the best out of these players and some at least appear demotivated?

Why is a prime KP player like Adams wanting out of a two yr contract?

A lot of questions lachy and at some point management need to be held accountable rather than blaming a seemingly ever increasing number of individual players.

All valid questions BRWB and they should also be held to account.

Given the amount of CEO's, fitness and conditioning staff, football department etc changes over the last 5 years that is conveniently forgotten would you not say that there are many in the club being held to account?

In fact how many of the club were there at the bigging of 2014 that are there now?

When you actually dig deep into the operations of the club it is a massive untruth that it is just a small group of players being held to account.

Your other questions, which btw the majority of which I agree with, are but an opinion not proof of something going wrong as there would be just as many who would answer your questions in a different way to you and mostly I

 

[Tommycash]

Hey so anyway, anyone heard anything recently about Honeychurch, Campbell and Libba? What day is the deadline?

 

[BEaston]

Just as likely he lost motivation after the GF. seemed to happen to a few others from the outside looking in. Comments made by people around the club seem to back this up.

 

[ringa5]

Even in hindsight I’d have kept Crameri over Honeychurch.

The big mistake they made was not adding
Darcy McPherson and keeping Honeychurch.Before he was injuired he looked twice the player honey. Has ever been. Gold coast will be
Laughing at us.

 

[Dogs Rule]

The catastrophising is insane.

Anyone who suggests players have been medically mismanaged when they have no medical qualifications or idea of the inner sanctum is ridiculous.

Look at our list. Bontempelli, Macrae, McLean, Hunter, Richards, Naughton, Boyd, Schache, Johannisen, Dunkley, Crozier, Cordy, Greene, Dale and English.

Not a bad little base of players.

Who would have thought the mood of some would deteriorate so much AFTER the season finished?

 

[Bulldogs Legend]

Two more than we have already and maybe just maybe we should play someone who had ELITE stats as a small forward as a small forward!

Yep always the player never the club, who do you all blame when we finished bottom 4 in 2019? All the naughty little boys are gone

Pretty sure we did play Dahl forward a number of times this year especially early on I can’t recall the exact games but I remember thinking he couldn’t seem to get into the game and would be better off on the ball.


On iPhone using BigFooty.com mobile app

 

[Bulldogs Legend]

I'll blame the can bar at the Geelong Road end.

I’m going with the car park pothole!


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[Bulldogs Legend]

Dahlhauss will win the coleman

No he will be runner up to Jake.


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[Bulldogs Legend]

That is the whole point. Why haven't we been able to manage players to maximise performance?

Dahlhaus was for a few years elite, not elite trait - elite. Before injury in 17 he was close to AA and had previously made the AA squad. Teams were literally trying to knock him out on a weekly basis. Why wasn't he the player he was two years previously? Why couldn't we manage him to perform? Same goes for Stringer and Libba who on form are elite. I mean who was the Libba impersonator in 17? What happened to them?

Adams was in the AFL team of the week multiple times when he started. What happened that led to his form drop and wanting to leave? Injuries...something else?

What happened to the host of kids on the cusp of greatness?

Was Clay Smith medically managed properly?

We also lost Graeme Lowe our footy manager. Hired as a consultant to Carlton, what do they do? Poach the Hawks' medical guy.

Look at Dalrymple. IMO a gun recruiter. We couldn't manage him to keep him. Where does he go? To a great dynastic club in the Swans. Swans, Geelong and the Hawks have kept their main recruitment guys for years if not for more than a decade, Wright, Wells and Beatson.

Yes we can blame the individual. But IMO it is happening too often.

Sorry but the great dynastic clubs don't often lose gun players and staff, they recruit them, while we blame the individual who leaves and wonder why no one wants to come to us except for blokes on their training wheels like Power or players of the ilk of Sam Lloyd and Duryea.

To be fair Dalrymple was at the club for ten years it’s not unusual for an employee to want a new challenge after that amount of time.


On iPhone using BigFooty.com mobile app

 

[BRWB]

All valid questions BRWB and they should also be held to account.

Given the amount of CEO's, fitness and conditioning staff, football department etc changes over the last 5 years that is conveniently forgotten would you not say that there are many in the club being held to account?

In fact how many of the club were there at the bigging of 2014 that are there now?

When you actually dig deep into the operations of the club it is a massive untruth that it is just a small group of players being held to account.

Your other questions, which btw the majority of which I agree with, are but an opinion not proof of something going wrong as there would be just as many who would answer your questions in a different way to you and mostly I

There is good turnover and bad turnover. simply saying the deck chairs got moved doesnt absolve the club management.

Losing Dalrymple for Power just seems bad turnover to me. Hiring (and promoting) Baines whose main claim to fame is overseeing the Saints' failed rebuild is questionable. Chris Grants footy admin experience could have been written on the back of a aspirin with a pick axe. Again questionable.

Like our list talent in Duryea, out Dahlhaus. In Lloyd, out Adams...

Honestly dont know the ins and out of fitness and medical but something is very wrong there. Many hospitals run on outcome based medicine. We clearly don't.

Anyway seems like we agree to a degree.

I like my own quote...

Build it and they will come. Post 16 we had built it..but no one came and we have subsequently dismantled 'it'.

Frustrating.

 

[Dogs Rule]

There is good turnover and bad turnover. simply saying the deck chairs got moved doesnt absolve the club management.

Losing Dalrymple for Power just seems bad turnover to me. Hiring (and promoting) Baines whose main claim to fame is overseeing the Saints' failed rebuild is questionable. Chris Grants footy admin experience could have been written on the back of a aspirin with a pick axe. Again questionable.

Like our list talent in Duryea, out Dahlhaus. In Lloyd, out Adams...

Honestly dont know the ins and out of fitness and medical but something is very wrong there. Many hospitals run on outcome based medicine. We clearly don't.

Anyway seems like we agree to a degree.

I like my own quote...

Build it and they will come. Post 16 we had built it..but no one came and we have subsequently dismantled 'it'.

Frustrating.

So, do we waste the next 12-24 months navel gazing or do we get on with it?

In 2014 we were lower than shark droppings. Hopeless. A mess. A disaster.

Two years later we won a flag.

The impatience is stunning. We find fault in everything and pick it apart and then re-pick it again and go back a third time.

Footy clubs are full of change. It happens all the time, every day, every week, every year. Relationships start, end, egos get inflated and some get carried away and tensions sometimes boil over. It's happens in footy clubs, it happens in life.

I often think it'd be great to return to my 9 year old football following self. As a kid, footy following is pure, it's simple and uncomplicated. You don't overanalyse things and yell your heart out. It's exciting. Best time of my life.

Pity those days don't last.