Strategy Trade and List management Thread Part 3 (opposition supporters - READ posting rules before posting)

[Triple Baileys]

Dogs give 2020 first to crows

Crows give 28 and Keath.

Dogs give 28 to saints for Bruce.

Retain 13.

Make it happen.

This could make sense if next year's first round pick is...#19.

But it still wouldn't help with our need to match bids.

 

[Hoges64]

Dogs give 2020 first to crows

Crows give 28 and Keath.

Dogs give 28 to saints for Bruce.

Retain 13.

Make it happen.

Oh good ****ing lord no....

 

[HELMET!]

I just hope we don't end getting screwed for not taking the early deal like stringer (I know we got schache with the picks).
The 4 way trade we rejected wasn't the worst trade going.

 

[compact72]

About tomorrows deal

Five go to St Kilda: How the Saints win an up-Hill battle in six trades

The St Kilda Saints have been ambitious in 2019, and secured the trade requests of no less than five opposition players – but face…

www.theroar.com.au

Trade five: Josh Bruce
Now for St Kilda’s other wantaway player: Josh Bruce.

Put together Bruce, the 2020 second-round pick obtained for Geelong, and St Kilda’s own 2020 second-round pick, and swap it to the Dogs for their 2020 first-rounder and pick 53 this year.

Clubs aren’t technically allowed trade out both their future first and second-rounders, but there’s a little loophole where it will be allowed if you get one back in (Hawthorn did this in the Jaeger O’Meara deal), so this is legal.

This works great for both clubs – St Kilda manage to get back into the first round of next year’s draft, and if their new recruits help them move up the ladder then it might not even be that different a pick from what their original selection would have been.

The Bulldogs, meanwhile, are already aware that they have a highly-rated NGA prospect in next year’s draft, Jamarra Ugle-Hagan, who they’ll need to match a bid for.


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That bid will in all likelihood come before where their first pick would fall, so swapping it for two second-rounders is no big loss.

If the Cats, Dogs and Saints all finished around the same spot next year as they did this one, this would actually give the Dogs nearly 100 extra points with which to match that bid.

For that reason, it’d be pretty fair to ask them throw in pick 53 this year back the other way. They have four picks before that in this year’s draft, they can afford to give it up.

 

[footyfan000001]

I just hope we don't end getting screwed for not taking the early deal like stringer (I know we got schache with the picks).
The 4 way trade we rejected wasn't the worst trade going.

Hope we don’t end up red faced and miss out on both.

 

[WeedsMullet84]

Re the foxsports article about the Doggies holding up the 4-way trade:

I'm very satisfied with the position the club has taken. Been thinking about it:

If we get Bruce for 32 + 3rd round. Ok. If we get Keath for 3rd round or 3rd round x 2, ok. Otherwise,

Happy to walk away from Bruce. 4 year contract is a bit generous imo. will be in 30's when contract concludes. It's only worth it if he comes relatively cheap pickwise.

Happy to walk away from Keath. 4 year contract too generous. 29 in 2020, 20 games, Injury requiring surgery may be related to previous career as a fast bowler. Only worth it if he comes relatively cheap in terms of picks.

More than happy to go to draft with picks 13, 32, 45 and keep going with a team that is young and building. Happy to use 51 & 53 for new blood or to promote R. Smith and Lachie Young.

I’d agree with this, aside from the fact these two players turn your team from finals contenders, to Premiership contenders. Both players will be around for 3-4 years and are proven talent, compared with P13 who is of an unknown quality. Oh well, Pride comes before the fall!


Sent from my iPhone using BigFooty.com

 

[House_of_Dahl]

About tomorrows deal

Five go to St Kilda: How the Saints win an up-Hill battle in six trades

The St Kilda Saints have been ambitious in 2019, and secured the trade requests of no less than five opposition players – but face…

www.theroar.com.au

Trade five: Josh Bruce
Now for St Kilda’s other wantaway player: Josh Bruce.

Put together Bruce, the 2020 second-round pick obtained for Geelong, and St Kilda’s own 2020 second-round pick, and swap it to the Dogs for their 2020 first-rounder and pick 53 this year.

Clubs aren’t technically allowed trade out both their future first and second-rounders, but there’s a little loophole where it will be allowed if you get one back in (Hawthorn did this in the Jaeger O’Meara deal), so this is legal.

This works great for both clubs – St Kilda manage to get back into the first round of next year’s draft, and if their new recruits help them move up the ladder then it might not even be that different a pick from what their original selection would have been.

The Bulldogs, meanwhile, are already aware that they have a highly-rated NGA prospect in next year’s draft, Jamarra Ugle-Hagan, who they’ll need to match a bid for.


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That bid will in all likelihood come before where their first pick would fall, so swapping it for two second-rounders is no big loss.

If the Cats, Dogs and Saints all finished around the same spot next year as they did this one, this would actually give the Dogs nearly 100 extra points with which to match that bid.

For that reason, it’d be pretty fair to ask them throw in pick 53 this year back the other way. They have four picks before that in this year’s draft, they can afford to give it up.

wow that is interesting - I'm all in if exactly as stated above would be a brilliant outcome

edit - can see its entirely hypothetical but I like it

 

[Triple Baileys]

I’d agree with this, aside from the fact these two players turn your team from finals contenders, to Premiership contenders. Both players will be around for 3-4 years and are proven talent, compared with P13 who is of an unknown quality. Oh well, Pride comes before the fall!


Sent from my iPhone using BigFooty.com

thank God, for a second I thought you were one of our supporters.

Be nice or Keath = PSD.

 

[dogwatch]

So you are prepared to trade 13 to get them both?

Salary can become an obstacle very quickly, like by this time next year.

You'd want to be pretty confident these guys can go the distance. Because, if not...

That's why I was evaluating the contracts against what we give up in picks.

I'm hopeful too but am happy to walk away if we don't factor in the probability that both may have only 2 good years in them. We have to offer 4 to get them here, but let's not lose out on the picks as well.

Well no, I'd much rather we did NOT use pick 13. Even if a straight #32 for Bruce and a third rounder for Keath aren't quite enough there are always tweaks that can be contrived to add a little extra ... and without touching #13.

However if there was no other option I'd consider using some sort of swap of 13 - for 18 etc, or whatever has been suggested. In a year's time we might wonder what all the fuss was about.

Fortunately whatever I'd do is irrelevant. We're watching to see what Power does. I'm liking his approach so far but that's only because he hasn't folded at the first hint of pressure. He's still got to seal these deals, but so far so good.

From what I've read here the sort of salary we're talking about is not going to be a massive issue, especially if it's front-ended.

If they fail to go the distance ... well sh*t happens. Nobody seems too upset now about Trengove being offered a 3 year deal even though he's in and out of the side with a year to go on his contract. Lloyd did extremely well this year but will be 30 at the start of next year (only a 2yr contract). Bruce would still be 30 at the start of his 4th year.

All up, a reasonable expectation would be 3 years from both with a fair chance of at least one of them giving us a good fourth year. As with Tom Boyd, who will give a hoot if they don't last the distance if they have already got us to a flag inside two years.

The alternative - walking away and hoping that we can build a flag winning side just by drafting and organic development - is far less likely to yield the ultimate prize. Risks have to be taken somewhere along the line. These risks don't seem too extravagant to me.

 

[dergert]

About tomorrows deal

Five go to St Kilda: How the Saints win an up-Hill battle in six trades

The St Kilda Saints have been ambitious in 2019, and secured the trade requests of no less than five opposition players – but face…

www.theroar.com.au

Trade five: Josh Bruce
Now for St Kilda’s other wantaway player: Josh Bruce.

Put together Bruce, the 2020 second-round pick obtained for Geelong, and St Kilda’s own 2020 second-round pick, and swap it to the Dogs for their 2020 first-rounder and pick 53 this year.

Clubs aren’t technically allowed trade out both their future first and second-rounders, but there’s a little loophole where it will be allowed if you get one back in (Hawthorn did this in the Jaeger O’Meara deal), so this is legal.

This works great for both clubs – St Kilda manage to get back into the first round of next year’s draft, and if their new recruits help them move up the ladder then it might not even be that different a pick from what their original selection would have been.

The Bulldogs, meanwhile, are already aware that they have a highly-rated NGA prospect in next year’s draft, Jamarra Ugle-Hagan, who they’ll need to match a bid for.


Advertisement
That bid will in all likelihood come before where their first pick would fall, so swapping it for two second-rounders is no big loss.

If the Cats, Dogs and Saints all finished around the same spot next year as they did this one, this would actually give the Dogs nearly 100 extra points with which to match that bid.

For that reason, it’d be pretty fair to ask them throw in pick 53 this year back the other way. They have four picks before that in this year’s draft, they can afford to give it up.

Danggg, thatd be too good to be true.

 

[compact72]

Danggg, thatd be too good to be true.

Means 34 for Keath and keep 13 while getting Bruce while helping us next year

 

[scooter600x]

About tomorrows deal

Five go to St Kilda: How the Saints win an up-Hill battle in six trades

The St Kilda Saints have been ambitious in 2019, and secured the trade requests of no less than five opposition players – but face…

www.theroar.com.au

I can't believe I've just read a multi club trade deal that is perfectly feasible.

 

[dergert]

Means 34 for Keath and keep 13 while getting Bruce while helping us next year

Thatd be a deal id sign in a heart beat.

 

[House_of_Dahl]

Means 34 for Keath and keep 13 while getting Bruce while helping us next year

Works well for us on so many levels. Dream outcome really. But is a genuinely viable trade for both teams. Hopefully gets raised on trade radio tomorrow haha

 

[Dogs Rule]

It is Lethlean after all ... a huge knob

Yeah, and that’s what got him into trouble.

 

[MrChristo]

Oh well, Pride comes before the fall!


Sent from my iPhone using BigFooty.com

Like saying; "Nothing to see here! We have full confidence in our pre-season training methods, our psych and fitness guys..."
...before two terrible seasons, a big chunk of players wanting out, a review and some sackings??

 

[Werewolf]

But isn't trading pick 32 for a 28(?) Yr-old who has only played 30 games paying WAY over?

Not really. If Keath was a midfielder, then you'd be right. But he fills an important need. Also consider how many games does your average pick 32 play? BTW 7 years ago Hawthorn gave up pick 21 (Hrovat) for a 30yo Brian Lake. I think we gave up pick 28 too.

 

[Snarls Barkley]

This four-way deal would’ve sparked an AFL trade domino effect. The Dogs rejected it

Alex Keath and Josh Bruce remain in limbo after a four-way trade proposal was shut down by the Western Bulldogs over the weekend.
Foxfooty.com.au understands Adelaide was the architect behind the arrangement, which fell down when the Dogs refused to slide from Pick 13 to 23 in the draft.

The Swans and Saints gave the Crows their initial tick of approval, but the Dogs rejected the deal.

The trade would have seen St Kilda land Zak Jones but lose Josh Bruce, while Sydney would have gained Pick 28 for Jones.

Had the multi-pronged trade been accepted, it would have unlocked several conundrums around the league and potentially acted as a key domino.

But the Dogs remained adamant Pick 13 is not for sale and resolute in their belief they can land Keath from Adelaide and Bruce from St Kilda while hanging onto the first-round selection.

The proposed four-club deal would have seen the Dogs trade their first three picks — 13, 32 and 51 — to Adelaide for Keath and Picks 23 and 28.


Pick 28 would then make its way from Whitten Oval to Moorabbin to secure Bruce, allowing St Kilda to use it to land Zak Jones from Sydney.

The Dogs have also been locked in talks with Port Adelaide instead of Adelaide as list manager Sam Power seeks to break a deadlock.

The Saints currently hold Picks 12 and 18 and have told rivals they intend to use the latter selection to land Power swingman Dougal Howard — or at least save it for negotiations with Port.

If the Bulldogs can’t make any progress in the next 24 hours, they may look at trading down from 13 to 18 to unlock a series of movements that secures Keath and Bruce. But that relies on St Kilda hanging on to Pick 18, which is no certainty.

The Western Bulldogs currently hold Pick 32 and have offered that to St Kilda for Bruce, but the Saints want a better deal for the contracted spearhead.

Bruce is keen to join the Dogs on a four-year deal after being told he was free to explore his options after Round 23.

Saints coach Brett Ratten has since denied suggestions the club was keen to move him on, but Bruce has told friends he is being pushed out. The Dogs also believe he was told to find a new home, 12 months after some inside Moorabbin looked at ways to move him on.

Jones has nominated the Saints as his preferred destination, while Keath intends to sign a three-year deal (with a trigger for a fourth season) if and when a trade is orchestrated.

THE TRADE PROPOSAL

Sydney Swans — Receives: Pick 28 | Loses: Zak Jones

St Kilda — Receives: Zak Jones | Loses Josh Bruce

Western Bulldogs — Receives: Alex Keath, Josh Bruce and Pick 23 | Loses: Picks 13, 32 and 51

Adelaide — Receives Picks 13, 32 and 51 | Loses: Picks 23, 28 and Alex Keath

So the deal was essentially

Keath + 23 + 28 for 13 + 32 + 51
Then 28 for Bruce

Seems like a fair bit for Keath. Crows will say that the draft pick calculator rates him as 33. Not sure many teams would trade picks 13 and 51 for 23 and 28 though, so probably worth more in reality.

Good news is that we’ve found out what the Saints/Swans want for Bruce/Jones. Pick 28, think we can find a way to get there with our picks.

Depends what we are looking at for the draft. The four way deal would leave us with picks 23, 45 and 53. The way it’s looking is that we’ve got three list spots open and if we are potentially upgrading a rookie (Lachie Young). If we are also looking at adding a mature age player late Will Hayes style then we might only want to take one kid out of the draft.

 

[compact72]

So the deal was essentially

Keath + 23 + 28 for 13 + 32 + 51
Then 28 for Bruce

Seems like a fair bit for Keath. Crows will say that the draft pick calculator rates him as 33. Not sure many teams would trade picks 13 and 51 for 23 and 28 though, so probably worth more in reality.

Good news is that we’ve found out what the Saints/Swans want for Bruce/Jones. Pick 28, think we can find a way to get there with our picks.

Depends what we are looking at for the draft. The four way deal would leave us with picks 23, 45 and 53. The way it’s looking is that we’ve got three list spots open and if we are potentially upgrading a rookie (Lachie Young). If we are also looking at adding a mature age player late Will Hayes style then we might only want to take one kid out of the draft.

Latest suggestion is better

Strategy - Trade and List management Thread Part 3 (opposition supporters - READ posting rules before posting)

Dogs give 2020 first to crows Crows give 28 and Keath. Dogs give 28 to saints for Bruce. Retain 13. Make it happen. This could make sense if next year's first round pick is...#19. :) But it still wouldn't help with our need to match bids.

www.bigfooty.com

 

[stefoid]

Me to Ouch

This was my attempt at the bont year phantom draft, GoT style. We ended up with Clegane and Drogo - not bad!

Game of Thrones phantom draft

1. Gregor Clegane A skilled and powerful giant who loves to impose physically on the contest. Known simply as 'The mountain'. A clear #1. 2. Rob Stark. A dedicated professional with elite skills. A clever mover that keeps going all day and will get you from death by 1000 cuts. 3. Bronn...

www.bigfooty.com

 

[Snarls Barkley]

Latest suggestion is better

Strategy - Trade and List management Thread Part 3 (opposition supporters - READ posting rules before posting)

Dogs give 2020 first to crows Crows give 28 and Keath. Dogs give 28 to saints for Bruce. Retain 13. Make it happen. This could make sense if next year's first round pick is...#19. :) But it still wouldn't help with our need to match bids.

www.bigfooty.com

It’s pretty much the deal Adelaide wanted for Keath. Would make more sense to drop in the draft next year as we’re likely to lose the pick for points regardless, this year not so much. If we do go really well next year, fourth place is pick 16, we could essentially be getting Bruce for nothing.

13 + 32 + 51 for Keath + 23 + 28
1st (2020 WB) + 53 for Bruce + 2nd (2020 STK) + 2nd (2020 GEEL)

My only worry about it is if things go a bit pear shaped next year and we miss the finals and maybe JUH doesn’t have as big of year and is only rated around pick 5, we don’t have the ability to do what GWS did in the 2017 draft (Taranto/Setterfield) and what they are trying to do in this draft to get in to the draft before Green eats up their points.

This trade would leave us with picks 13, 32, 45 and 51. Probably try and move 45 and 51 for another second rounder and give one of our two second rounders for Keath. Or just give them 32 and take 45 and 51 to the draft. It’ll be interesting to see what happens.

Still sort of hoping it’s as simple as trading a some sort of combination of 45, 51 and 53 for a second round pick. Trading the best second rounder for Bruce, the other second rounder for Keath and then just take 13 and late picks to the draft.

 

[Pugz89]

Maybe but I think King re-signing is a smokescreen.

“We will give you extra dollars which allows us to ask for more cause your contracted”

Yep, I said it could well be a Schache type situation. All be it the trade would be a yr into new contract.

 

[Doggy]

Yep, I said it could well be a Schache type situation. All be it the trade would be a yr into new contract.

From all reports King seems pretty loyal and would more than likely see out any contract

 

[go you pups]

View attachment 764278

Lel, I've missed these

Apparently a four way trade deal was rejected by us, which would have seen us slide from 13 to 23 in the draft, and collect Bruce and Keath. The deal was the same one well mentioned on here. Crows, Swans, Saints and Us.

Also apparently we are in talks with Port as well, to look at breaking the dead lock. Unless there is something else in that one.

And that we may consider swapping 13, with the Saints 18 for Bruce instead. Which leaves 32 for Keath. Probably a better outcome for us, but it will rely on the Saints not shifting 18 off for Howard.

We must really want someone in this draft if we are keen to keep within the first round.

Seems like you copied and pasted this post from the AFL site or wherever



*then added one or two of your own words

So once again, Saints are happy to take 28 for Bruce but not 32???? FMD!!!!

Yeah it's weird

Could be Sydney too though but that'd be weird also as I rate Bruce's value slightly above Jones'

Very very uneventful trade period so far. At one point you would be thinking weeks ago that it was shaping up as one of the biggest off season player movements in history. Instead its feeling like you need a big piss, but all you get is a little dribble.

Clubs no doubt would have been on the phone to each other all weekend. So seems despite two days to make calls and plans, clubs still cannot reach agreements. I think this is now the result of clubs now massively over valuing players these days. Everyone is trying to get a little extra these days, and no one wants to budge. Thankful the AFL ignored some clubs ideas to allow the future trading of picks to extend into an extra season. So clubs would be using 2019, 2020 and 2021 picks. Imagine clubs trying to rip off 6 first rounders for average players.

Lel, decent analogy

Pre-seaspn draft is different to the regular draft. Usually, only a few picks taken by clubs with list spots left. No idea if it's feasible though. Someone at work mentioned it and I didn't know much about the mechanism tbh. Hoping someone could shed some light on it.

There used to only be a 5 day trade period, the National Draft then the PSD/rookie drafts

That was the normal off season period for years until expansion came in under Vlad and it's changed most years, starting with the National Draft moving away from a boring November Saturday morning to a primetime Thursday slot.

The added layers of player movement like Free Agency, Delisted Free Agency, Uncontracted Rookies (like Stack, Gibbons etc) has seen nearly a complete eradication of the PSD. The AFL would like trades to be done in good faith though I'd have thought for uncontracted players who aren't eligible for free agency.

Guessing based on Freo's rejection of pick 6: Pick 12 + next year's first (B King now being unobtainable). Way overs. Saints just keep reaming themselves. Should have stopped at pick 6 and walked away.

Nah

Freo said they wanted 6 + next years first for Hill

Saints rightfully walked away from that

If they give up 12 + next years first for Hill, then use 18 on Howard then it's a far better situation than what it could've been if they bent over for Freo.

Yes. In essence a player who nominates for the either the ND or PSD and has been on an AFL list previously includes contract demands as a part of his nomination.

An experienced player doesn't go into a draft and getting picked up for base pay and a standard 2 year contract (unless he that's all he wants).

By the same token, the PSD wasn't really designed for this purpose. The AFL doesn't like this outcome much and prefers clubs to trade in good faith. BigFooty is only the place "let him to PSD" or "send him to the PSD" is a popular concept

True, but the added layers of player movement, in particular like Free Agency and Delisted Free Agency has seen the PSD become virtually redundant. Uncontracted players get their move to their desired destination weeks earlier basically unchallenged, whereas the PSD only really favoured bottom 4 sides due to anybody could pick up anyone who had nominated provided they had early enough picks there, though normally clubs knew who wanted to go where.

No PSD = no uncertainty really on player movement, I'd imagine the AFLPA would like not having it.

Jade Rawlings too - Veale deal.

Dogs give 2020 first to crows

Crows give 28 and Keath.

Dogs give 28 to saints for Bruce.

Retain 13.

Make it happen.

Heard of Jamarra Ugle-Hagan?

 

[ErnieSigley]

Dogs give 2020 first to crows

Crows give 28 and Keath.

Dogs give 28 to saints for Bruce.

Retain 13.

Make it happen.

Stop posting Goddards crap