Strategy Trade and List management Thread Part 5 (opposition supporters - READ posting rules before posting)

[doggiesin08]

Sure I would have liked us to bring in a KPD last year to address that glaring hole in our side but my bigger complaints with the backline are:

• What has happened to Keath - is he still lacking confidence in his hamstrings to go at 100%?
• What has happened to Williams - he's fine up the ground now but he used to be a real asset in the backline?
• What has happened to Crozier - 2 x top 10 B&F finishes and then he's fallen off a cliff?
• Where is Dale's defensive craft - I get last year he only moved in pre-season but he's had 18 months in the backline now.

Thank **** Richards has come on in leaps and bounds this year.

 

[adogsfan5]

I reckon we should have a crack at Lewis Young...makes me sick

Plays in a better structure. Doesn’t play 20m away/in front from his man and then doesn’t get caught out of position on the counter.

It’s no wonder every other club has acres of space inside 50 and ours is a clogged up nightmare.

How many times have you seen Keath or Obrien having to play catch up and losing touch as they are stuck playing in front?

Mind boggling that we don’t play one back as the last man.

How many times have you seen 3 defenders go up to spoil leaving dangerous smalls at ground level?

Our structure is a mess.

 

[Golden_6]

I can’t believe some people are still suggesting Naughton go back. Absolutely staggering to me.

 

[Dannnnnnnnnn]

Yeah absolutely, as I said last night you could put Scarlett & Lake back there and they’d play 15m off their opponent and get caught out of position as the ball waltz through the centre of the ground unopposed.

But I guess what I mean is that I believe we can fix our forward line issues with current personnel - Naughty, Bruce, Jamarra, Schache/Darcy whereas yes we have huge defensive issues that need to be solved but even if we do that, the personnel still isn’t good enough - so that’s where our attention should be focussed.

But hey if we can bring in Lobb for 500k and a reasonable deal at the trade table (first rounder off the table) just do it but we need to bring in at least one good defender too

This is the problem though: your hopes here are just that right now, hopes.

Naughton is a superstar who is just going to get better and better, but wasn't enough last night (or this year on the whole) to fix the issues himself. He also doesn't have an exactly clean injury history.

The board is already locking Bruce into being the player he was. Realistically, he is a 200cm, 30 year old who is coming back from an ACL. The fact that he pulled a hamstring after his first game back on low game time is a real, real worry, and we simply cannot guarantee he is going to be a difference maker, or that he is going to be so for a long time.

Jamarra is building with every game. I liked his game last night. But he is not close to an offensive threat at present - even at VFL level. His contemporaries haven't been much better, but they have been somewhat more threatening at both levels from what I understand. That's fine - he will probably get there and I'm encouraged by his recent improvement. But he would not be getting a game for the top of the table teams right now and that is the problem. Right now, he fluctuates between barely AFL standard and definitely not AFL standard.

Schache was a liability last night, in keeping with his pattern of playing really well at times and then following up with an utter disaster of a game. His inconsistency makes him a poor option for a good team.

Darcy has played 6 (?) VFL games, none of which have been as a primary forward. We have seen absolutely nothing to suggest he will fix our problems ever, let alone right now.

I am not trying to write any of these players off. I like all of them and hope they're around for many years playing great footy. I am just making the point that anything could happen, and we can't forecast one possible future and then make all our decisions based on that prediction.

Here's an example. If we rewind to the years around 2016, we didn't really push to recruit KPDs because we had Hamling, Cordy, Adams, Morris, Wood, and then Roberts as a role player. If you recall, this board collectively shat bricks when we recruited Naughton, because we "didn't need" a KPD - we would've expected Hamling, Adams, and Cordy, with possibly someone else developing, to be playing good footy together right now. As a result of predicting that, our cupboards are absolutely bare. I hear you that the group you've spoken about are largely higher picks with more promise than this group, but that doesn't guarantee anything. You have to be really careful.

I hate to say this, but it's an important point: Keath is 30. Treloar is 29. Duryea is 31. Libba is 30. JJ is 29. Dunkley is probably on his way out. Bont, Macrae, Daniel, Dale, etc are in their prime. That is a hell of a lot of gaps to replace in the next ~3 years, and a big chunk of our star power that will likely start to plateau or decline. We can't be ****ing around and acting like we're in a rebuild. We need players that can contribute now, and make us better, regardless of where on the field they are. We need to work to find the best bang for our buck - but that doesn't necessarily mean it has to be in the position of 'most need.'

TL;DR - we need good players, and we need them now. Waiting for certain players to develop and not putting anything in place above them is not how we win a premiership from here.

 

[Dog 36]

I reckon we should have a crack at Lewis Young...makes me sick

Simply he is played in one position and trains in that position and is developed in that position and his teammates know exactly his role and they know what role they have to play to help him to help the team.

Young does not have to worry about ruck or this or that just concentrates on be a KPD.

Could you imagine a key position player coming to our club? They would want to think twice and maybe that is why we haven't attracted one.

The player may come as a defender ends up playing forward, ruck and wing. Comes as a forward ends up playing as a defender, ruck and everything in between.

Develop players to play in one position and teach them in that position. Be a club that is responsible for developing a KPP and improving them as a player in the position they play. Until we do that I don't see us attracting a decent KPP and I don't see us capitalising on the talent we have in the midfield.

Moving KPP here and there tells me we don't have the correct development structure in areas for KPP

 

[TedDougChris]

Plays in a better structure. Doesn’t play 20m away/in front from his man and then doesn’t get caught out of position on the counter.

It’s no wonder every other club has acres of space inside 50 and ours is a clogged up nightmare.

How many times have you seen Keath or Obrien having to play catch up and losing touch as they are stuck playing in front?

Mind boggling that we don’t play one back as the last man.

How many times have you seen 3 defenders go up to spoil leaving dangerous smalls at ground level?

Our structure is a mess.

Was very obvious last night, both in F50 and D50 that we are exposed through the middle and have no real system at either end.

Really miss English running hard at both ends - covers a lot of cracks he does

 

[Dannnnnnnnnn]

Also, just one other note on Lobb vs KPD (although, I'll reiterate that it shouldn't be one or the other).

It's not simply a matter of a key defender improving our defence vs a tall improving our forward line. Lobb has the benefit of being both a competent forward and a competent second ruckman. The benefit of him that doesn't come from a KPD is that it will (hopefully) both improve our marking power & structure ahead of the ball, but also address the ruck situation. English will get a reliable chop out, ensuring he can get enough rest and play the same in the last quarter as he can in the first. He will be able to hang out the back to chop off rebound kicks while a competent ruck takes the F50 bounces. He will be able to hold structure behind the ball better as he doesn't have to push forward to offer an extra marking option. And, above all, we won't have to get absolutely annihilated at centre bounces any time English needs to rest or is off the field.

 

[Mofra]

Last thing we need is another KPF when we have Naughton, JUH, Schache, Bruce and Darcy coming up.. It's the one position I feel that we have completely covered.

Of that list, only one is an AFL standard performer week in, week out. Marra is years away from being a legitimate no 2, Darcy hasn't even debuted and may be a defender for some time anyway, Bruce will be lucky to stay on the paddock and Schache has no consistency.

We absolutely need a genuine no 2 KPF and Lobb can chop out ruck too. It's a no brainier.

 

[Dale4captain]

Of that list, only one is an AFL standard performer week in, week out. Marra is years away from being a legitimate no 2, Darcy hasn't even debuted and may be a defender for some time anyway, Bruce will be lucky to stay on the paddock and Schache has no consistency.

We absolutely need a genuine no 2 KPF and Lobb can chop out ruck too. It's a no brainier.

Agreed. He will be great.

Probably a second rounder is a realistic price and he's worth that with no issues. I'm not sure what Hamling's contractual status is but if he's out of contract or delisted, we should see if he wants to come over as backup.

Make a good offer to the lesser of the Mckay brothers to drag him out of the cesspit that is north and offer them a future first. Sell Dunks to the highest bidder if we need cap space and assets going forward. I love Josh but he's odds on to leg it when the option arises.

Still murmurs about Callaghan from GWS not settling in Sydney. Same with Bruhn. Either of those boys on a wing would be a nice upgrade on Lachie Hunters disposal and freshens up the bottom end of the list. Both would probably need a mid-first rounder to extract if they were OOC or desperate to escape.

 

[adogsfan5]

Can’t believe people legit thought Schache turned a corner in the last couple weeks. Nothing against the guy but he’s too soft and always will be.

 

[doggies ftw]

Can’t believe people legit thought Schache turned a corner in the last couple weeks. Nothing against the guy but he’s too soft and always will be.

i cannot believe I flipping fell for this again - the campaigner is an absolute magician, he’ll be on a list til 35 even though he’s genuine garbage

 

[adogsfan5]

i cannot believe I f*n fell for this again - the campaigner is an absolute magician, he’ll be on a list til 35 even though he’s genuine garbage

Nice skills but very slow and timid. You can’t add mongrel into someone. You either have it or you don’t.

 

[Dannnnnnnnnn]

Nice skills but very slow and timid. You can’t add mongrel into someone. You either have it or you don’t.

Essendon's development of Peter Wright would disagree. Definitely the exception rather than the rule though - remarkable turnaround for Wright, who is in many ways a very similar player.

I think Schache probably isn't up to it, but he plays so many different roles week-to-week (and even within the same game last night) that it's hard to see how he gets comfortable.

 

[Pugz89]

Wonder what Kieran Collins is up to…

Playing for Tatyoon in the Mininera and District Football League.

 

[adogsfan5]

Essendon's development of Peter Wright would disagree. Definitely the exception rather than the rule though - remarkable turnaround for Wright, who is in many ways a very similar player.

I think Schache probably isn't up to it, but he plays so many different roles week-to-week (and even within the same game last night) that it's hard to see how he gets comfortable.

Can’t remember the last time I’ve seen Schache take a good contested mark. He’s just a “nice” footballer that looks classy. So far from a key position player it’s not funny.

Wright is also, what, 200cm? Big boy.

 

[Al dente]

Sure I would have liked us to bring in a KPD last year to address that glaring hole in our side but my bigger complaints with the backline are:

• What has happened to Keath - is he still lacking confidence in his hamstrings to go at 100%?
• What has happened to Williams - he's fine up the ground now but he used to be a real asset in the backline?
• What has happened to Crozier - 2 x top 10 B&F finishes and then he's fallen off a cliff?
• Where is Dale's defensive craft - I get last year he only moved in pre-season but he's had 18 months in the backline now.

Thank **** Richards has come on in leaps and bounds this year.

yes, bar from Richards and West, the trajectory has been backwards or sideways

 

[Chalky White]

Haha, if Haynes bears no grudges from his throat incident with Bont!

Then he’d be brilliant.

Not his greatest effort this season, but he is a fantastic player.

I reckon we’re zero chance though - would be a massive trade cost.

EDIT - oh wow - he’s actually just turned 30! Scrap what i said about his trade cost!!

Not a massively tall defender however (192cm)

He's an interception specialist, not a kpd.
He is exactly what we need. Unfortunately if we do get him there's half a chance Bevo will play him in the ruck.

 

[Al dente]

Essendon's development of Peter Wright would disagree. Definitely the exception rather than the rule though - remarkable turnaround for Wright, who is in many ways a very similar player.

I think Schache probably isn't up to it, but he plays so many different roles week-to-week (and even within the same game last night) that it's hard to see how he gets comfortable.

while Schache's main problem is lack of aggression, his other issue is lack of leg speed. he's not super slow for a 199 guy but he's not quick either, if he had more speed he'd be a good AFL player, regardless of his timidity.

 

[immortalmike]

Can’t remember the last time I’ve seen Schache take a good contested mark. He’s just a “nice” footballer that looks classy. So far from a key position player it’s not funny.

Wright is also, what, 200cm? Big boy.

The height difference would be negligible I'd say.

 

[ossie_21]

I’ve been saying the same thing for years, trade away some first round picks for ready made talent. The club just seems to have a hard on for hitting the draft, although the last couple of years we have had very high bids to match.

I’d target 2 ready made KPD’s, shaken loose from elsewhere if contracted. 1 needs to be a gun, the other a reliable type with upside.

Be bold - overpay for McKay & also get Logue, then draft another KPD to develop.

Lobb is a no-brainer, a decent KPF/chop out ruck with bucket hands.

Trade Dunkley & 2022/23 1st rounders for other picks for points. Turn the list over & say bye to players like McComb, Butler, Garcia on top of Martin & Wallis etc

Trade & FA:
McKay or insert shaken loose gun like Taylor from GWS or up & comer like Butts from Adelaide
Logue
Lobb
Gaff

Draft priority order:
Lockdown medium defender
Midfield/winger with pace & burst speed
NATURAL small forward with goal sense
Ruckman

If we draft more inside mids, flaky half backs or take a token VFL Footscray player I will cry

 

[Snarls Barkley]

He’s no superstar but he’d absolutey be playing better than O’Brien in his position - what a monumental * up lmao

Obviously no one watched any of Obriens career before he came here expecting him to solve any issues - he has had an awful career besides the odd good mark. Genuinely hopeless

Was optimistic to think a guy who had played 90 crap games and 7 good ones would be the answer.

But all we have is optimism and hopefully he turns it around. The only alternative is Cordy and that is a path I'd rather not go down.

 

[doggiesin08]

I’m all for hypotheticals but Ben McKay

32

Ben Mckay

Age

27

Ht

202cm

Wt

104kg

Pos.

Def

Career

Season

Last 5

D

7.5

2star

K

3.7

1star

HB

3.8

3star

M

2.7

3star

T

1.7

4star

MG

77.2

1star

D

7.5

2star

K

4.5

2star

HB

3.0

2star

M

2.5

3star

T

1.5

2star

MG

88.5

2star

D

7.0

2star

K

3.4

2star

HB

3.6

3star

M

2.4

3star

T

2.0

4star

MG

67.8

1star

is not happening. He’s a free agent at the end of 2023 and assuming North will still be shit (and he gets a big enough offer) that probably nets them pick #2 or #3. I don’t see what we could come up with this year that is more tempting for North than pick #2 in 12 months time.

I’m on board for freeing up cap space and getting in his ear to join as a free agent at the end of next season.

 

[Doggies_13]

Maybe Geelong should send Cameron or Hawkins back. Or carlton could send McKay or curnow back. Heard saints ar sending max king

Multiple players found. Use birthday to differentiate. eg [PLAYERCARD="23/11/1962"]Joe Smith[/PLAYERCARD]

back.

Sending Naughton back is as ridiculous as those moves would be. The bloke has 40 goals with at least 7 games left this season. Averaging 2.7 goals a game which puts him on track for 59 goals this season. How can anyone think taking a 50+ goal a year forward who has done it with basically no support and poor delivery out of our forward line is a good idea.

 

[bullish23]

Agreed. He will be great.

Probably a second rounder is a realistic price and he's worth that with no issues. I'm not sure what Hamling's contractual status is but if he's out of contract or delisted, we should see if he wants to come over as backup.

Make a good offer to the lesser of the Mckay brothers to drag him out of the cesspit that is north and offer them a future first. Sell Dunks to the highest bidder if we need cap space and assets going forward. I love Josh but he's odds on to leg it when the option arises.

Still murmurs about Callaghan from GWS not settling in Sydney. Same with Bruhn. Either of those boys on a wing would be a nice upgrade on Lachie Hunters disposal and freshens up the bottom end of the list. Both would probably need a mid-first rounder to extract if they were OOC or desperate to escape.

In isolation not against Lobb. But there are far greater needs i.e. retain Dunkley and bring in a KPD (or 2) to spend 500k on. (Unless you have heard Josh is gone?)

Agree on the McKay. Have to bust him out of there. Probably the only ready-made feasible option and we have to be bold like what Melbourne did with Lever.

 

[Dogs_R_Us]

Jon Ralph just reported opposition clubs believe Lobb to the dogs is done. 1.5 million over 3 years

Like Dunkley to Port is done?