Strategy Trade and List management Thread Part 6 (opposition supporters - READ posting rules before posting)

[Charlie Bucket]

Remember, Bevo gifted English about 40 games at the beginning of his career. Sweet was never given the same opportunity to develop.

Same thing happened with Naughts and Baz.

How they were gifted games and Declan Hamilton wasn’t is a travesty for the ages.

 

[dergert]

Henry strikes me as someone who'd be very very very average outside of a good system?

 

[hatescaptcha]

It kinda feels like no one wants English so he’ll just settle with a lower than expected offer from us.



Sent from my iPhone using BigFooty.com

 

[yebach]

Same thing happened with Naughts and Baz.

How they were gifted games and Declan Hamilton wasn’t is a travesty for the ages.

Same thing happened with McNeil, McComb etc etc.

 

[Bald]

No. What I was saying is that we'd be better off with Sweet & English and 2 second round picks, rather than Lobb & English and no second round picks.

Hugh Davies and Tew Jiath were the players taken with the picks we used to trade for Lobb. They ended up being picks 30 (2022) and 37 (2023) and whilst it's too early to tell how good these players will be, neither have played a game yet and neither look like they will any time soon.

Also, I think as an actual ruckman who's job it is to win hitouts and protect his onballers, Sweet does this better.

Define "protect his onballers", otherwise what you're saying is you're happy giving up 7.3 disposals, 1 score involvement a goal every 3 games and an inside 50 every game for a benefit of an earth shattering 1.2 advantageous hit outs per game.

Remember, Bevo gifted English about 40 games at the beginning of his career. Sweet was never given the same opportunity to develop.

Tim English played 9 games in his first 2 seasons, in 2018 he played the first 7 games of the season, but even then, he was playing ahead of guys like Tom Campbell and Jackson Trengove. I'm not sure where this narrative that he was gifted games comes from? It was almost out of necessity.

 

[CarnTheScray]

Yes, a unique game-by-game voting system decided upon by three individuals in a short period of time after the game and with a weird view of the game at the time is exactly the same as a large number of professionals who have limitless time to construct a team from all angles. The same.

This is possibly the second or third time you have put words in my mouth. I did not say they were the same.

“Professionals”, lol.

 

[CarnTheScray]

Death to any that oppose our premier ruck, for he is infallible. When he leaps in the skies to deliver the ball to our midfield disciples, it fills them with determination, and the AFL fantasy score rises as one with them.

Damn my mistake, I’ll worship this overlord too.

 

[Doggies_13]

I think we need to do a mini reset at the end of the year and unfortunately some loved players need to go to allow us to fast track it and gain assets.

We are one-paced in the middle and too many same same players, even grabbing sanders who will be good is not quick.

Macrae has been a great player for us but I think we look at moving him or letting him move. I think he’s worth a late first to early second.

Daniel no longer has a position on half back and doesn’t have the speed or size to play in the middle or half forward. I think he’s probably worth an early to mid second rounder.

I would keep Lobb as back up but there is a lot of noise about him probably seeking a trade and us being open to it. So if he wants out and isn’t happy to sit in the VFL then let’s get what we can.

I hope we keep all three of the big three out of contract we need Smiths skill set in the midfield, his burst speed is something not many others on our list have.

We need to get that key defender in that can fill jones position and that’s our hardest task atm.

We also need to add a quality wingman not some other teams discard.

We need to add more speed in the midfield as well.

We have some needs to address and we need assets to address them to re-balance our list

 

[Charlie Bucket]

This is possibly the second or third time you have put words in my mouth. I did not say they were the same.

“Professionals”, lol.

Kevin Bartlett, Eddie Betts, Jude Bolton, Nathan Buckley, Kane Cornes, Glen Jakovich, Cameron Ling, and Matthew Pavlich.

Few all Australians in that bunch of AA selectors.

Would you not deem them industry professionals? Interesting if not.

 

[Dog 36]

Hugh Davies and Tew Jiath were the players taken with the picks we used to trade for Lobb. They ended up being picks 30 (2022) and 37 (2023) and whilst it's too early to tell how good these players will be, neither have played a game yet and neither look like they will any time soon.

Define "protect his onballers", otherwise what you're saying is you're happy giving up 7.3 disposals, 1 score involvement a goal every 3 games and an inside 50 every game for a benefit of an earth shattering 1.2 advantageous hit outs per game.

Tim English played 9 games in his first 2 seasons, in 2018 he played the first 7 games of the season, but even then, he was playing ahead of guys like Tom Campbell and Jackson Trengove. I'm not sure where this narrative that he was gifted games comes from? It was almost out of necessity.

What $ are you willing to pay for the extra disposals, extra score involvement etc etc
Are we really getting bang for our buck for a ruck who seems to be concerned about the physicality of the position

As for gifting games his form did not warrant selection for a long period of time but he was selected.

 

[threenewpadlocks]

Damn my mistake, I’ll worship this overlord too.

Wtf is this?

 

[cherrypie]

The club knew the issues with Dunkley and their response was to sign up a inferior player he had issues with to a 5 year deal.
Should have taken the Essendon offer.

Can’t agree with this. We made the Grand Final the season that we kept him so it was absolute worth keeping him and improving our chance at a flag that season. Without 15 minutes of awful footy, Dunks is likely a 2 time Premiership Bulldog

 

[cherrypie]

Same thing happened with Naughts and Baz.

How they were gifted games and Declan Hamilton wasn’t is a travesty for the ages.

Unrelated to Trade/Draft but I found a Declan Hamilton interview from last year. Spoke positively about our club but said he found it challenging moving state at 18.

“It’s probably something you don’t think about when you are there, but on reflection blokes like Murph and (Matt) Boyd, the love that they had for their club being 250-300 gamers was special. As a younger player you are just worried about trying to get a kick but as I have got older and matured at Norwood, it’s made me appreciate the way they spoke about their club. It’s made me think about what this footy club means to me.”

 

[Libbaaaa]

English is averaging over 9 Hitouts to Advantage a game this year. Only 5 players who have played 3 games or more are averaging higher. He's above Nankervis, Witts, Xerri, McInerney, Pittonett and Marshall among other first choice rucks.

He's clearly not the most physical ruck but I think some of the commentary here is based on "the vibe" from how he was years ago. He's an average ruck, with extremely good skills and a decent mark.

Yet we have zero faith in him to win crucial ruck contests when it matters most.

 

[cecil]

Yet we have zero faith in him to win crucial ruck contests when it matters most.

Which is my point because he's statistically more likely than most rucks to win that contest

 

[Lex22]

Gee, some tempting free agents coming up.

Florent, Berry, Cummings, Stengle.

Berry especially might be a Moneyball inside mid.

Don't @ me.

I feel they would all be best 22.

Berry is an interesting one, for some reason I thought he was 2-3 years older, but right age for us at 26.

Would be mid-range contract wise I’d assume?

I would probably take Cumming out of all of them, especially at the price vs the others.

He’d be a bit younger than what Duryea was when he arrived and he’s been a terrific recruit.

We tend to do well with those dependable backs. Cumming would be a very handy pick-up.

 

[Chalky White]

And for the millionth time, he can't have been all that bad last year given he was literally deemed All-Australian.

Whether or not he is as apparently physical in some random ruck contest and how that flows on to all other elements of the game that helps teams win or lose is far less important than modern footy. It's like people are taking their assessments of rucks from the era of Polly Farmer, Gary Dempsey and John Nicholls even though the game is completely different.

There's no point having good discussion on this forum if people are suggesting that Jordon Sweet is a comparable footballer to Tim English, or that either can play key forward anywhere near as well that either can play in the ruck, or whatever. It's just pointless. People wanting to be obtuse for the sake of it.

Nobody suggested that. The argument is that Sweet is a far better CBA ruckman than English. Thats the point. We are getting killed from the centre partly because of English being poor there.
Tim is a Follower/Fwd. There use to be rucks called followers. He is one.
My belief is that Sweet could do all the heavy work and English and Darcy could do round the ground following and forward play.
It's a moot point, as Sweet is gone. But I see him as a similar player to Ben Hudson, and current players Soldo, O'Brien, Nank.
This would've been with no financial issues.
Now that he's gone, we should look at offloading Lobb and picking up a journeyman type ruck or fast tracking the kid we drafted last year.

 

[Chalky White]

Keep an eye on Petty to Crows and Lobb to dees three way deal

Dogs only want a mid to late third to offload his contract

As long as we don't have to chip in for his salary. I bet that happens.

 

[Highlander]

Jackson Hately

6

Jackson Hately

Age

23

Ht

191cm

Wt

85kg

Pos.

Mid

Career

Season

Last 5

D

15.3

4star

K

8.5

3star

HB

6.8

4star

M

4.8

5star

T

2.6

4star

CL

0.7

3star

D

14.2

3star

K

8.4

3star

HB

5.8

3star

M

4.8

4star

T

1.4

2star

CL

0.4

3star

D

17.2

5star

K

8.6

4star

HB

8.6

5star

M

5.6

5star

T

3.0

5star

CL

0.8

3star

anybody?

 

[Fossie 32]

English is averaging over 9 Hitouts to Advantage a game this year. Only 5 players who have played 3 games or more are averaging higher. He's above Nankervis, Witts, Xerri, McInerney, Pittonett and Marshall among other first choice rucks.

He's clearly not the most physical ruck but I think some of the commentary here is based on "the vibe" from how he was years ago. He's an average ruck, with extremely good skills and a decent mark.

Hmm yes hard to argue with the stats, though I have been a critic. I had trouble finding a good stats table but seems he is 8th for total hitouts and second to Gawn in AFL fantasy points.

I would have thought the vibe is same as it has always been but maybe worse now, as his lack of physicality was understandable while he was starting out.

I think though it's a reasonable criticism, even though he is obviously 'good', that he regularly [at times] looks at his opponent, rather than going for the ball which is not good for winning the contest and not inspiring for teammates and supporters. [Not giving the Very Best.] Maybe if he was more physical / competitive he would be great instead of good.

 

[LondonBulldog]

Yet we have zero faith in him to win crucial ruck contests when it matters most.

English is averaging over 9 Hitouts to Advantage a game this year. Only 5 players who have played 3 games or more are averaging higher. He's above Nankervis, Witts, Xerri, McInerney, Pittonett and Marshall among other first choice rucks.

He's clearly not the most physical ruck but I think some of the commentary here is based on "the vibe" from how he was years ago. He's an average ruck, with extremely good skills and a decent mark.

Lets see that stat by the end of the year, a few easy inflated games in that, like GC without Witts.

Maybe our midfield also help out with this stat, guys like Libba and Bont with experience reading the tap.

We lose the taps most weeks. Imagine the hitouts to advantage if he actually started winning the overall tap count, thats what Lade and Co should be pushing.

We are underachieving in the ruck and centre clearances this year. I'm not worried, Darcy will change that as he doesn't have the fear or protective mindset that English has at centre bounces.

 

[Libbaaaa]

Which is my point because he's statistically more likely than most rucks to win that contest

I guess so, but we know he'll still take a 3 metre run up to try leap at the ball while the opposing ruck takes one step to eat up his space and render him useless. Try him as a rover at this point, nothing to lose.

 

[Golden_6]

Which is my point because he's statistically more likely than most rucks to win that contest

Where are you getting that likelihood from? These are English' ruck stats over the past 4 weeks against the oppositions main ruckmen.

English v Sean Darcy (56 contests)
Hitouts: 22 / 22
To Advantage: 4 / 8
Clearances: 19 / 28

English v Marshall (50 contests)
Hitouts: 15 / 24
To Advantage: 4 / 7
Clearances: 25 / 15

English v Goldstein (40 contests)
Hitouts: 13 / 20
To Avantage: 4 / 6
Clearances: 17 / 18

English v Draper (15 contests)
Hitouts: 3 / 11
To Avantage: 0 / 5
Clearances: 4 / 8

English v Stanley (84 contests)
Hitouts: 31 / 41
To Advantage: 15 / 11
Clearances: 38 / 29

English consistently loses the hitouts and the hitouts to advantage. I'm sure if I went back further that I would find a similar pattern.

 

[cecil]

Where are you getting that likelihood from? These are English' ruck stats over the past 4 weeks against the oppositions main ruckmen.

English v Sean Darcy (56 contests)
Hitouts: 22 / 22
To Advantage: 4 / 8
Clearances: 19 / 28

English v Marshall (50 contests)
Hitouts: 15 / 24
To Advantage: 4 / 7
Clearances: 25 / 15

English v Goldstein (40 contests)
Hitouts: 13 / 20
To Avantage: 4 / 6
Clearances: 17 / 18

English v Draper (15 contests)
Hitouts: 3 / 11
To Avantage: 0 / 5
Clearances: 4 / 8

English v Stanley (84 contests)
Hitouts: 31 / 41
To Advantage: 15 / 11
Clearances: 38 / 29

English consistently loses the hitouts and the hitouts to advantage. I'm sure if I went back further that I would find a similar pattern.

I was looking at the aggregated averages across the year.

 

[LittleG]

I think we need to do a mini reset at the end of the year and unfortunately some loved players need to go to allow us to fast track it and gain assets.

We are one-paced in the middle and too many same same players, even grabbing sanders who will be good is not quick.

Macrae has been a great player for us but I think we look at moving him or letting him move. I think he’s worth a late first to early second.

Daniel no longer has a position on half back and doesn’t have the speed or size to play in the middle or half forward. I think he’s probably worth an early to mid second rounder.

I would keep Lobb as back up but there is a lot of noise about him probably seeking a trade and us being open to it. So if he wants out and isn’t happy to sit in the VFL then let’s get what we can.

I hope we keep all three of the big three out of contract we need Smiths skill set in the midfield, his burst speed is something not many others on our list have.

We need to get that key defender in that can fill jones position and that’s our hardest task atm.

We also need to add a quality wingman not some other teams discard.

We need to add more speed in the midfield as well.

We have some needs to address and we need assets to address them to re-balance our list

I doubt we get an early second rounder for Macrae. Daniel is unlikely to get even a third rounder….

We overvalue our own players and these two really need new opportunities elsewhere.