Transgender - Part 2

[Gethelred]

Please be aware that the tolerance of anti-trans language on BF is at an all-time low. Jokes and insults that are trans-related, as well as anti-trans and bigoted rhetoric will be met with infractions, threadbans etc as required. It's a sensitive (and important) topic, so behave like well-mannered adults when discussing it, PARTICULARLY when disagreeing. This equally applies across the whole site.

 

[SBD Gonzalez]

Gut feeling, so it's a vibe then.

How about this for a vibe, if your assertion that a 'disappointing number' is correct, would you agree that society should look quite more dystopian than what it is now?

Very hard to quantify either way, but I think if you peel back the surface, society isn't great to look at, no.

 

[SBD Gonzalez]

Read in the media, need I say more?

Yeah I think you do need to say more. But if you're going to go off on some jag about how we can't trust the media, like that's never occurred to anyone else, you can stop right there.

And yes I've heard DIRECTLY from women about being ogled at and 'hit' on (spoke to?!), but this is very far and few between.

Examples of 'uncomfortable' is very rare, and could be likely over reactive by some of those women. For example some bloke just saying hi and introducing themselves could be construed as 'hitting on', which it shouldn't. Rather snowflakey imo.

Yeah I already said I'm just conveying what I've heard said by women. That you personally think it may be an over-reaction is neither here nor there in terms of the argument. You seem blissfully unaware of the contemporary phenomenon of women-only gyms.

I've said what I wanted to say. I'm not interested in pursuing this any further.

 

[SBD Gonzalez]

If this was the case then women wouldn't be training at mixed gender gyms at all.

All this argument is, is a long bow to assert that transgender WOMEN should not be allowed in female gyms, preposterous.

The mask is off.

Despite your avatar and the team you follow, it's just not so black and white.

 

[Crankyhawk]

They don't, maybe 0.000000001% of the female population do. If they do then that's a reflection on their unjustified feeling of not being comfortable.

The bulk of gyms are mixed genders, no problems.

So what's Fernwood's reasonable argument?

I’d say their clientele would have a much higher number than 0.00000001% being that the “female only” is pretty much fernwoods reason for existence it’s brand difference

 

[Carringbush2010]

I’d say their clientele would have a much higher number than 0.00000001% being that the “female only” is pretty much fernwoods reason for existence it’s brand difference

Doesn't change the fact that females should feel uncomfortable in mixed gender gyms, like I've allude, if you're feeling uncomfortable in being in a mixed gender gym then you shouldn't be there.

And like I've also alluded, I doubt the majority of women that do join female only gyms are doing so because they feel uncomfortable around men. They do so because they have better access to what's more suitable to women than mixed gyms i:e programs and trainers that are more suited to women.

If this assertion that women feel uncomfortable around men, by and large, then society would look a lot more segregated woudn't it, not just in the gym.

 

[Crankyhawk]

Doesn't change the fact that females should feel uncomfortable in mixed gender gyms, like I've allude, if you're feeling uncomfortable in being in a mixed gender gym then you shouldn't be there.

And like I've also alluded, I doubt the majority of women that do join female only gyms are doing so because they feel uncomfortable around men. They do so because they have better access to what's more suitable to women than mixed gyms i:e programs and trainers that are more suited to women.

If this assertion that women feel uncomfortable around men, by and large, then society would look a lot more segregated woudn't it, not just in the gym.

It becomes difficult when trying to predict or assign attitudes- intellectually yes women “should” not feel uncomfortable in a mixed gender gym but due to prior life experience some just feel that way. And changing how someone feels is difficult
I had thought fernwoods promoted “you can exercise without men staring at you/ checking you out/ hitting on you”

 

[MrKK]

Yeah I go to the gym daily, I don't see any evidence there of women feeling uncomfortable (Goodlife, mixed gym in Butler).

So I suggest you bring numbers to back your claims.

Perhaps the ones that would be uncomfortable are already at the women-only gyms?

 

[10571z]

Yes what is a woman? Subject to opinion, which it shouldn't be.

A person who genuinely claims to be a woman is a woman.

Cool, I don't agree.

 

[Gethelred]

What's a women?

Cool.

See ya.

 

[gouki88]

What's a women?

Generally someone who covers their drinks when around the men who ask this question

 

[Tadpole]

Generally someone who covers their drinks when around the men who ask this question

Someone who'd choose the bear.

 

[Carringbush2010]

It becomes difficult when trying to predict or assign attitudes- intellectually yes women “should” not feel uncomfortable in a mixed gender gym but due to prior life experience some just feel that way. And changing how someone feels is difficult
I had thought fernwoods promoted “you can exercise without men staring at you/ checking you out/ hitting on you”

Seems to me, that Fernwood's banning of transgender women is to protect 'you'll feel safe at our gyms' brand. Which is totally over reactive on their part, that's where this whole discussion started.

Then someone claimed women might feel uncomfortable around transgender women in a gym, which I find totally over reactive if so, and haven't see any evidence of this either. But the claim was made to defend Fernwood's position.

I call that clutching at straws and agenda driven.

Someone else suggested Fernwood employ security to allow women to feel safe around trans women in women only gyms.

I've been of the suggestion how about Fernwood be not so infantile and grow up.

 

[Crankyhawk]

Seems to me, that Fernwood's banning of transgender women is to protect 'you'll feel safe at our gyms' brand. Which is totally over reactive on their part, that's where this whole discussion started.

Then someone claimed women might feel uncomfortable around transgender women in a gym, which I find totally over reactive if so, and haven't see any evidence of this either. But the claim was made to defend Fernwood's position.

I call that clutching at straws and agenda driven.

Someone else suggested Fernwood employ security to allow women to feel safe around trans women in women only gyms.

I've been of the suggestion how about Fernwood be not so infantile and grow up.

Maybe they have marketing data to support their decision. Or it’s purely knee jerk reaction. I don’t know.

 

[Carringbush2010]

Perhaps the ones that would be uncomfortable are already at the women-only gyms?

Yeah probably, but they only number in the few it seems, considering the bulk of training women are at mixed gender gyms.

Women don't only go to women only gyms to 'get away from men', womens only gyms also provide catered training specifically for women. Might also be a reason.

 

[Carringbush2010]

Maybe they have marketing data to support their decision. Or it’s purely knee jerk reaction. I don’t know.

Seems like a knee jerk reaction.

 

[Carringbush2010]

Cool, I don't agree.

Ok, that's your opinion and your right.

A bit undemocratic, but you're allowed your choice to opinion in our democracy.

 

[CM86]

The Fernwood stuff just completely exposes the bigotry of the 'we just care about the women' narrative.


Fernwood was a response to the ACTIONS of males. Not an aversion to genetics.
And it was fought against, tooth and nail, by the men who now suddenly find themselves supporting it.

Fernwood isn't protecting people from genetics, it's to protect people from unwelcome actions and general actions that cause discomfort, unease or to feel unsafe.
That's not genetics... You can't sense someone was born male at birth if they present as a woman and don't interact with you at all.
It shows that it's a rhetoric of 'women/children/society in general is not safe around or with transgenderism'.
It is just blanket discrimination and hate of transgenderism.



As always, a transphobes desire for women's equality starts and ends with banning transgenderism.

 

[Crankyhawk]

The Fernwood stuff just completely exposes the bigotry of the 'we just care about the women' narrative.


Fernwood was a response to the ACTIONS of males. Not an aversion to genetics.
And it was fought against, tooth and nail, by the men who now suddenly find themselves supporting it.

Fernwood isn't protecting people from genetics, it's to protect people from unwelcome actions and general actions that cause discomfort, unease or to feel unsafe.
That's not genetics... You can't sense someone was born male at birth if they present as a woman and don't interact with you at all.
It shows that it's a rhetoric of 'women/children/society in general is not safe around or with transgenderism'.
It is just blanket discrimination and hate of transgenderism.



As always, a transphobes desire for women's equality starts and ends with banning transgenderism.

Could it be a fear that a predatory male will pretend to be trans in order to access fernwood (using some ludicrous legal fig leaf of “you can’t say I’m not trans/ discrimination etc etc) - ie not a genuine trans person who is usually identifying as female. Could that be the fear?

 

[faible]

Could it be a fear that a predatory male will pretend to be trans in order to access fernwood (using some ludicrous legal fig leaf of “you can’t say I’m not trans/ discrimination etc etc) - ie not a genuine trans person who is usually identifying as female. Could that be the fear?

That's usually the trope.

Transwoman = predatory male pretending to be female in order to sneak in to women's only places for nefarious purposes.

 

[Crankyhawk]

That's usually the trope.

Transwoman = predatory male pretending to be female in order to sneak in to women's only places for nefarious purposes.

I was not meaning the trope, more someone specifically misgendering themselves. As opposed to what I call “genuine “ trans (and yes recognise there is a lot of issues there)

 

[faible]

I was not meaning the trope, more someone specifically misgendering themselves. As opposed to what I call “genuine “ trans (and yes recognise there is a lot of issues there)

I suspect most people who push that kind of argument don't believe anyone is genuinely trans. From what I've seen, their arguments tend to coincide with other comments and beliefs.

 

[Gough]

Could it be a fear that a predatory male will pretend to be trans in order to access fernwood (using some ludicrous legal fig leaf of “you can’t say I’m not trans/ discrimination etc etc) - ie not a genuine trans person who is usually identifying as female. Could that be the fear?

You don't punish women for the potential actions of a bloke.

 

[Geelong_Sicko]

Gen Z Supports Gender-Segregated Gym Spaces, Survey Finds

A new poll reveals that more than half of Gen Z consumers are cool with male or female-only sections in gyms and fitness facilities.

athletechnews.com

Nearly twice as many women as men find the gym intimidating

The majority of UK women would prefer to work out in a female-only space - yet very few options exist.

uk.style.yahoo.com

Some women are sick of being harassed at gyms. Are women's-only gyms fixing the problem?

Many women have been opting for single sex gyms to avoid harassment and unwanted stares while working out. But does this address the bigger issue?

www.usatoday.com

Please Just Leave Women at the Gym Alone

Let's review the rules of being a respectful gym-goer

www.insidehook.com

That points to sexual objectification being the issue. How men growing up relate to women in an age of instant porno on your phone.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not against porno existing, but the way kids grow up watching it these days - they aren't told how to or taught to 'switch off' the objectification even when the clip is over and the video is done. They go out into the world and they do what they do.

Looking is natural but gawking? Staring? Going down to the gym to cop an eyeful when you're already oversexed is a bad idea.

But that's mens' atitudes that need to change. That's porno that needs to change. That's male/female interaction that needs a shift in how it occurs.

Transgender people aren't at fault for any of that.

 

[Carringbush2010]

Despite your avatar and the team you follow, it's just not so black and white.

Womens only gyms aren't wholly and solely an escape mechanism for women feeling uncomfortable in mixed gender gyms.

They also have programs and trainers that are more suited to women, which is likely attractive options for women.

So yeah you're right it's not so black and white.

Look I'm not suggesting that women don't at all feel uncomfortable in mixed gender gyms, I'm scrutinizing the alluded assertion that 'heaps and lots and probably most' women don't feel comfortable in mixed gyms, and it's the whole and sole reason for womens only gyms.

If that were the case, you'd hardly see women in mixed gender gyms, but that's not the case, the gyms I've been to over the years have plenty of women training in them and they don't give the impression of being uncomfortable.

 

[SBD Gonzalez]

You don't punish women for the potential actions of a bloke.

And yet we don’t live in an ideal world.