Transgender

[Gralin]

Discussion continuing in Part 2 found here

Transgender - Part 2

Please be aware that the tolerance of anti-trans language on BF is at an all-time low. Jokes and insults that are trans-related, as well as anti-trans and bigoted rhetoric will be met with infractions, threadbans etc as required. It's a sensitive (and important) topic, so behave like...

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[Chief]

If by 'these people' you mean

Yeah nice one.

trans women athletes then yes on average they will be significantly taller on average than biological women athletes - because obviously men don't get any shorter when they transition to become women.

And you know this... how? Because you immediately say:

The data is limited so far on specific individuals but potentially the height differential would be an advantage in many sports for trans women over biological women.

What are you basing this off?

If it's true, there would be lots of data on something as simple as heights.

 

[Frank Bunn]

And you know this... how? Because you immediately say:

Read the report.

 

[mcnulty]

Not only height but wingspan. Males have a significantly greater wingspan to height ratio than females, which can be a big advantage in certain sports.

 

[Chief]

Not only height but wingspan. Males have a significantly greater wingspan to height ratio than females, which can be a big athletic in certain sports.

Lay bigger eggs, too.

 

[Chief]

Read the report.

The report with limited data?

 

[Frank Bunn]

The report with limited data?

The one kristi cited.

 

[Gough]

There's a gag about trans women looking to take inches off somewhere in this debate.

 

[mouncey2franklin]

Real life evidence? It's one case

One case... of what exactly?

How would you describe what happened in that fight between the regular female and the person born as a male?

 

[TheBigHorne]

One case... of what exactly?

How would you describe what happened in that fight between the regular female and the person born as a male?

I feel like you aren't open to being wrong.

Someone got beaten in a boxing match, big deal.

Also why did you ignore the rest of my post that you quoted? What are your thoughts on that?

 

[mouncey2franklin]

Someone got beaten in a boxing match, big deal.

A person born as a man beat the hell out of a woman.

And you support this?

 

[Chief]

A person born as a man beat the hell out of a woman.

And you support this?

We know it's not your concern for the loser in that match that makes you want to speak up.

 

[Gough]

If both women consented to being in the ring I don't see the problem.

 

[TheBigHorne]

A person born as a man beat the hell out of a woman.

And you support this?

A woman beat a woman in a sports match both of them willingly particpated in.

 

[Chief]

"29 year old beats 13 year old in skateboarding competition" is not the slam dunk you think it is.

 

[Chief]

You still aren't answering the question.

I don't have to if I think you are asking in bad faith and it will lead to nothing productive.

 

[kirsti]

tell me you don't understand leverage without telling me

longer limbs without increased muscle mass is not performance enhancing, it is actually the opposite

Nailed it


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[Gough]

A woman beat a woman in a sports match both of them willingly particpated in.

That's what makes it laughable, two women get in the ring for a punch on and a bunch of men who usually like that sort of thing are up in arms about it.

 

[kirsti]

That's what makes it laughable, two women get in the ring for a punch on and a bunch of men who usually like that sort of thing are up in arms about it.

Fallon lost her last fight by TKO 9 years ago she is currently recovering from knee surgery a complication she has had with complete androgen deprivation. Fallon was 7 years post op when she first competed in the female category.


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[kirsti]

Rugby is exclusionary in nature, at a policy level Monash University research has found.

It appears that what world rugby have been telling us, is not the 'truth' with trans women athletes.

New article in press, looking at how World Rugby treat transgender players.

Video for ease of access:

Summit

www.binghamcupottawa2022.ca

Here's the data:

OSF

osf.io

Here's the manuscript:

OSF

osf.io

I see the evidence as potential discriminatory action by a governing body and failing in duty of care, and against rugby's core values.

Worse, it shows the level of decision making at WR, and this likely is happening too in respect to traumatic brain injury in rugby.

There already is what appears to be corporate entanglement, or at least sports entanglement, between WR and the @BJSM_BMJ .

Exclusion at one level likely results in exclusion at others. Here, clearly there is exclusion of participant's health to privilege their 'image' of rugby.

This is exemplified not just with the trans issue, but the playing around with TBI, such as rugby applying a Kehoe Paradigm in attempt to muddle the current situation, applying HIA that is not fit for purpose, obstructing informed consent, and dicking with tackle height.


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[kirsti]

Rugby is exclusionary in nature, at a policy level Monash University research has found.

It appears that what world rugby have been telling us, is not the 'truth' with trans women athletes.

New article in press, looking at how World Rugby treat transgender players.

Summit

www.binghamcupottawa2022.ca

Here's the data:

OSF

osf.io

Here's the manuscript:

OSF

osf.io

I see the evidence as potential discriminatory action by a governing body and failing in duty of care, and against rugby's core values.

Worse, it shows the level of decision making at WR, and this likely is happening too in respect to traumatic brain injury in rugby.

There already is what appears to be corporate entanglement, or at least sports entanglement, between WR and the @BJSM_BMJ .

Exclusion at one level likely results in exclusion at others. Here, clearly there is exclusion of participant's health to privilege their 'image' of rugby.

This is exemplified not just with the trans issue, but the playing around with TBI, such as rugby applying a Kehoe Paradigm in attempt to muddle the current situation, applying HIA that is not fit for purpose, obstructing informed consent, and dicking with tackle height.


Sent from my iPhone using BigFooty.com

Video for ease of access:




Sent from my iPhone using BigFooty.com

 

[chopflop]

Isla Bryson case: Movement of violent transgender prisoners paused

A belated win for common sense in Scotland!

 

[faible]

tell me you don't understand leverage without telling me

longer limbs without increased muscle mass is not performance enhancing, it is actually the opposite

Height isn't always about leverage; height, along with reach (and larger hands) can be an advantage in some sports - e.g. basketball - without requiring equivalent muscle mass.

Some sports are easier to quantify than others; weightlifting / powerlifting should give a pretty good indication of how much strength changes, and athletics or cycling are pretty 'pure' sports in terms of measuring performance differences.

A little off on a tangent, but there's also likely not a sufficiently large sample of truly 'elite' athletes that have undergone transitions to really know exactly what it represents for elite level sport.

Semenya and athletes like her are a really bad sample given they're a different case all together that get lumped in with transgender athletes. We know Semenya with her 'natural' levels of testosterone vs a normal women's level of testosterone performs at quite different levels.

kirsti also often comments about how the testosterone levels a transwomen is required to maintain in order to compete are quite unhealthy long-term, which adds other issues for athletes to deal with.

 

[Chief]

height, along with reach (and larger hands) can be an advantage in some sports - e.g. basketball - without requiring equivalent muscle mass.

Is that the case in higher level basketball? After about under 13s you can't really show up in higher grades as a tall player with no muscle and excel without some amazing skills.

 

[faible]

Is that the case in higher level basketball? After about under 13s you can't really show up in higher grades as a tall player with no muscle and excel without some amazing skills.

Little bit disingenuous here, I very clearly wasn't talking about a 7'6" skeleton of a player who can't bounce a ball. Just that Gralin's argument about leverage doesn't apply to all sports. Sure, Powerlifting with longer limbs and without the equivalent muscle mass to support it is problematic, basketball less so.

Plenty of ultra-tall NBA players aren't super coordinated or muscular. There's a reason guys like Jokic win MVP when they combine skills and athleticism and size, as it's such a rare combination to have the package.

Something like 10% of the US population that's > 7ft is in the NBA. It's definitely an advantage to be tall.

 

[Chief]

Little bit disingenuous here, I very clearly wasn't talking about a 7'6" skeleton of a player who can't bounce a ball. Just that Gralin's argument about leverage doesn't apply to all sports. Sure, Powerlifting with longer limbs and without the equivalent muscle mass to support it is problematic, basketball less so.

Plenty of ultra-tall NBA players aren't super coordinated or muscular. There's a reason guys like Jokic win MVP when they combine skills and athleticism and size, as it's such a rare combination to have the package.

Something like 10% of the US population that's > 7ft is in the NBA. It's definitely an advantage to be tall.

I suppose. I only know what I see at local league basketball.

Why not have a league for 2.1m+ people only if we are going to get hung up on genetic predisposition? Or even "if your parents are both over 2m you play in your own league because you have an unfair genetic advantage".