Transgender

[Gralin]

Discussion continuing in Part 2 found here

Transgender - Part 2

Please be aware that the tolerance of anti-trans language on BF is at an all-time low. Jokes and insults that are trans-related, as well as anti-trans and bigoted rhetoric will be met with infractions, threadbans etc as required. It's a sensitive (and important) topic, so behave like...

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[igon value]

"So people can basically force us — on pain of massive legal liability — to say what they want us to say, whether or not we want to endorse the political message associated with that term, and whether or not we think it’s a lie."

"The NYCHRL [New York City Human Rights Law] requires employers[, landlords, and all businesses and professionals] to use an [employee’s, tenant’s, customer’s, or client’s] preferred name, pronoun and title (e.g., Ms./Mrs.) regardless of the individual’s sex assigned at birth, anatomy, gender, medical history, appearance, or the sex indicated on the individual’s identification."

So, it's not even your retail service provider that will suffer. Not your man in the street.

Claiming that you will be fined if you forget or say the wrong title while interacting with someone casually you are going to be fined.

It won't happen. A few piss-easy database changes and a small amount of education is all that is needed. This "ermagerd I don't agree with the political message!" stuff is bullshit. Calling a priest "Father" is, to me, atrocious. I don't agree with the political message this sends - that priests are a class deserving of a reverential title. But I was raised Catholic so I do it anyway.

But I agree - the law sounds a bit silly.

Who is a professional? Who is a business? Are they not a man in the street? Are most of your interactions with other people in the street?

If a plumber does a job at a person's house and misgenders them (either seemingly deliberately or repeatedly), must they be up for a legal process and potential fines because of miscommunication?

What exactly are we intending to police here?

 

[Chief]

Who is a professional? Who is a business? Are they not a man in the street? Are most of your interactions with other people in the street?

If a plumber does a job at a person's house and misgenders them (either seemingly deliberately or repeatedly), must they be up for a legal process and potential fines because of miscommunication?

What exactly are we intending to police here?

The sort of ridicule and harassment that transgender people put up with quite often.

 

[Chief]

Who is a professional? Who is a business? Are they not a man in the street? Are most of your interactions with other people in the street?

If a plumber does a job at a person's house and misgenders them (either seemingly deliberately or repeatedly), must they be up for a legal process and potential fines because of miscommunication?

What exactly are we intending to police here?

"Seemingly deliberately or repeatedly".

What is "seemingly"?

 

[igon value]

The sort of ridicule and harassment that transgender people put up with quite often.

Then they must put up with it.

The law must only be interested in truth and facts. Not subjective interpretations of reality and identity.

"Seemingly deliberately or repeatedly".

What is "seemingly"?

Seemingly to the subjective experience of those who deny their objective and biological reality.

To a solipsist obsessed with their subjective experience and identity how can we take them at their word?

 

[Chief]

Then they must put up with it.

The law must only be interested in truth and facts. Not subjective interpretations of reality and identity.

Truth and facts. Would the idea that women must be called "Mrs" or "Miss" be truth and fact? How do you feel about "Ms"?

Seemingly to the subjective experience of those who deny their objective and biological reality.

So you are of the opinion - in spite of the evidence and anecdote - that gender is strictly binary?

 

[igon value]

Truth and facts. Would the idea that women must be called "Mrs" or "Miss" be truth and fact? How do you feel about "Ms"?

Mrs, Miss or Ms came into accepted parlance without the law needing to intervene. Have there ever been cases where a woman has has her human rights infringed because she was called 'Miss' instead of 'Mrs'?

So you are of the opinion - in spite of the evidence and anecdote - that gender is strictly binary?

Gender often means many things to many people. Are their more masculine and feminine examples for each males and females? Certainly. Does that mean a man can know what it is to be female? Or can a man no better know what it is to be female than he can know what it is to be a bird and how to fly?

Women from childhood learn they are (or will be) burdened with many things that a man will never experience: menstruation, pregnancy and childbirth. Oftentimes there will be women who later find out they can't do these things, either because of sex chromosome differences, congenital issues or age.

These outlying cases are often used to define womanhood as a sliding scale between what is female and what is male. If you assert that a woman is XX chromosomal, menstruates and has a womb, then that excludes those who are nominally thought of was women but lack one or all three of these things.

However, this does not mean that those who are born male, simply by lacking the ability to menstruate, get pregnant and endure childbirth, can be classified as female because they experientially feel that they are women and also can't do what many putative women can't do. This isn't Wittgenstein's family resemblance, rather this the paradox of the heap.

If a person looks like a man, is identified by others as a man, and interacts as a man, why should they not be called a man?

 

[Chief]

Mrs, Miss or Ms came into accepted parlance without the law needing to intervene. Have there ever been cases where a woman has has her human rights infringed because she was called 'Miss' instead of 'Mrs'?

Gender often means many things to many people. Are their more masculine and feminine examples for each males and females? Certainly. Does that mean a man can know what it is to be female? Or can a man no better know what it is to be female than he can know what it is to be a bird and how to fly?

Women from childhood learn they are (or will be) burdened with many things that a man will never experience: menstruation, pregnancy and childbirth. Oftentimes there will be women who later find out they can't do these things, either because of sex chromosome differences, congenital issues or age.

These outlying cases are often used to define womanhood as a sliding scale between what is female and what is male. If you assert that a woman is XX chromosomal, menstruates and has a womb, then that excludes those who are nominally thought of was women but lack one or all three of these things.

However, this does not mean that those who are born male, simply by lacking the ability to menstruate, get pregnant and endure childbirth, can be classified as female because they experientially feel that they are women and also can't do what many putative women can't do. This isn't Wittgenstein's family resemblance, rather this the paradox of the heap.

If a person looks like a man, is identified by others as a man, and interacts as a man, why should they not be called a man?

And yet when people want to be identified as something in between male and female you disagree?

 

[igon value]

And yet when people want to be identified as something in between male and female you disagree?

Your question was about strict binaries. I don't think there is a third or more genders, no. There is a rough binary, with more masculine and feminine variations on those to suggest there isn't a strict binary, but everyone I have met - even the transgender - still fit into the binary.

There is no such thing as 'pangender' for instance.

 

[Chief]

Your question was about strict binaries. I don't think there is a third or more genders, no. There is a rough binary, with more masculine and feminine variations on those to suggest there isn't a strict binary, but everyone I have met - even the transgender - still fit into the binary.

There is no such thing as 'pangender' for instance.

You make these claims based on... ?

 

[igon value]

You make these claims based on... ?

Please elucidate your question.

 

[Chief]

Please elucidate your question.

On what do you base these claims?

 

[igon value]

On what do you base these claims?

Same thing everyone cases their opinions on: the papers and books they have read and what they have experienced. Strange question.

 

[Chief]

Same thing everyone cases their opinions on: the papers and books they have read and what they have experienced. Strange question.

You think asking for evidence of a claim is a strange question?

 

[igon value]

You think asking for evidence of a claim is a strange question?

I would suggest the existence of a thing, such as pangender, requires evidence itself.

Or are you adopting the position of theist asking me to prove there is no god?

 

[Geelong_Sicko]

So what you are saying is that we should think of him as a man because he still packs a wang and doesn't have ****. Thats exactly what a lot of trans "women" are.

I love watching lefty logic implode

There's a difference between a crossdresser and a transgender who is undergoing gender reassignment.

I love seeing rightie ignorance exposed

 

[Geelong_Sicko]

There's a lecturer in Canada that gets death threats because he refuses to use pronouns outside of the standard he, she and they, and his university won't stand by him.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/w...ticised-gender-neutral-pronouns-a7402901.html

This guy? Thing is, to my mind he's an EDUCATOR. An educator's role is to educate. He can't arbitrarily decide he's only going to teach his male students, or female students or white students over multi-ethnic. He's there to educate the class, no matter who they may be. To exclude, even based on gender pronoun alone, stifles the education process.

If he can't teach in an ever-changing world, maybe he should look for another job.

 

[Gough]

Quelle surprise, an old white man. I forgot those guys know everything.

 

[igon value]

Quelle surprise, an old white man. I forgot those guys know everything.

Aren't you an old white man? Isn't all the music you fetishise from the 60s written by old white men?

Aren't you the same thing you despise?

 

[Gough]

Aren't you an old white man? Isn't all the music you fetishise from the 60s written by old white men?

Aren't you the same thing you despise?

Quite possibly, it's the recessive Catholicism gene. Self loathing, martyrdom, and all that.

 

[igon value]

Quite possibly, it's the recessive Catholicism gene. Self loathing, martyrdom, and all that.

OK, but if you want a non-white or non-male perspective on the issue, you can read Adolph Reed:

http://www.commondreams.org/views/2015/06/15/jenner-dolezal-one-trans-good-other-not-so-much

Or check the previously linked FAQ from the Women's Liberation Front.

 

[Chief]

That much is clear. Same could be argued by creationists or anti-vaxxers in favour of their world view. What matters is: who is closer to the truth?

Respect matters in the sense that a person demand that you treat them in the way they expect - what have they done to deserve that respect? If a person demands that they be addressed as 'xe' (or any other made up pronoun) then why should their demands be listened to any more than a person who is not a doctor be called a doctor at their insistence? Should we respect Pete Evans views on fluoride and health despite the fact he is not qualified? It is just another subjective point of view. To call him an idiot is disrespectful.

As Peterson says - if we get to insist on others using our personal pronouns, why can't we insist on others using our favoured adjectives?

I imagine you walk the streets thinking yourself open minded but when contrary ideas assault your senses you reflexively seek them to be shut down. Open your mind a bit further.

Here's a good heuristic to use when determining truth-value of statements: always be suspicious of those in the mob who are quick to violence.

But what does it matter?



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[TimmeT]

At the end of the day if you're born male, you're male...

 

[Chief]

At the end of the day if you're born male, you're male...

What is a "male"?


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[ABSOLUTE MADMAN]

Ease up mate, there's no ambiguity

Quite clearly a woman.

Removing myself from the actual debate in the OP. There is just no common sense justification for that person being able to compete in that competition. You can get surgery, take testosterone lowering medications etc.

None of that is changing their bones. They were born with a male pelvis and still have one now which is a massive advantage. M2F Transgender athletes in other women's sports is controversial enough, having them in weightlifting is an utter joke and short changing the women competitors for the reasons I have outlined.

 

[quotemokc]

Can I identify myself as a 70 year old and get my super now?