Transgender

[Gralin]

Discussion continuing in Part 2 found here

Transgender - Part 2

Please be aware that the tolerance of anti-trans language on BF is at an all-time low. Jokes and insults that are trans-related, as well as anti-trans and bigoted rhetoric will be met with infractions, threadbans etc as required. It's a sensitive (and important) topic, so behave like...

www.bigfooty.com

 

[Bloods86]

Man I don’t reckon I’ve seen anyone try on the whole “internet tough guy” thing since about 2012. Nice.

As a BigFooty user, I find this incredible.

 

[Gralin]

As a BigFooty user, I find this incredible.

I find it highly suspect

 

[Gough]

Man I don’t reckon I’ve seen anyone try on the whole “internet tough guy” thing since about 2012. Nice.

It wasn't a girls night out without someone threatening to kick your teeth in.

 

[aj1992]

Lol it's calling for violence if this was a right winger gun nut you'd you'd be shooting him down.

 

[Geelong_Sicko]

Maybe this transgender perpetrator wasn't treated with kindness and compassion and understanding. Maybe they felt hated and despised. Maybe it was parental rejection.

There's no excuse for murdering people but early intervention and understanding could prevent disaffected teens from growing up into killers. Compassion has a key role in prevention.

 

[Cmarsh]

Maybe this transgender perpetrator wasn't treated with kindness and compassion and understanding. Maybe they felt hated and despised. Maybe it was parental rejection.

There's no excuse for murdering people but early intervention and understanding could prevent disaffected teens from growing up into killers. Compassion has a key role in prevention.

You make it sound like there is an excuse for murder, punctuated by a whole heap of hypotheticals.

 

[Geelong_Sicko]

You make it sound like there is an excuse for murder, punctuated by a whole heap of hypotheticals.

Not an excuse, but a cause/effect. Address the cause, overcome the effect. By helping someone early enough in life through their issues then maybe these kinds of incidents can be avoided.

 

[Geelong_Sicko]

Definitely feel free to disagree ElectricG but tell me, is saving an individual from sliding into that mental state that makes murdering children seem palatable, does the prevention of that seem like a BAD idea to you?

Should we let these people fall into the abyss and just wring our hands as our emergency services are left looking at how many shattered pieces are left to scrape up?

Is early intervention a joke concept to you? Do you have any alternative viewpoints to offer?

 

[ElectricG]

Definitely feel free to disagree ElectricG but tell me, is saving an individual from sliding into that mental state that makes murdering children seem palatable, does the prevention of that seem like a BAD idea to you?

Should we let these people fall into the abyss and just wring our hands as our emergency services are left looking at how many shattered pieces are left to scrape up?

Is early intervention a joke concept to you? Do you have any alternative viewpoints to offer?

I think whenever someone shoots up a bunch of kids we shouldn’t be looking for the first thing that will alleviate them of culpability and semi-blame the victims just because we feel the need to take sides in the culture wars.

 

[Bloods86]

I think whenever someone shoots up a bunch of kids we shouldn’t be looking for the first thing that will alleviate them of culpability and semi-blame the victims just because we feel the need to take sides in the culture wars.

Not sure how you came up with that.

 

[the_interloper]

Maybe this transgender perpetrator wasn't treated with kindness and compassion and understanding. Maybe they felt hated and despised. Maybe it was parental rejection.

There's no excuse for murdering people but early intervention and understanding could prevent disaffected teens from growing up into killers. Compassion has a key role in prevention.

I agree 100% with you on this. Sadly I don't think this view extends to a lot of the mass shootings, usually everyone laughs at the "incel videos" or whatever the (generally straight white male) perpetrator posts online and doesn't wonder how it got to this point.

 

[ElectricG]

Not sure how you came up with that.

Stop busting my balls Bloods

 

[Gralin]

Maybe this transgender perpetrator wasn't treated with kindness and compassion and understanding. Maybe they felt hated and despised. Maybe it was parental rejection.

There's no excuse for murdering people but early intervention and understanding could prevent disaffected teens from growing up into killers. Compassion has a key role in prevention.

this is the exact same line run out after a mass shooting by the conservative media when the shooter turns out to be a white supremacist

maybe if we'd been nicer to the nazi wanna be he wouldn't have gone a shot a bunch of people

the difference being that the nazi is going to kill people whether you are nice to them or not because it's an ideological position where as being trans isn't and I don't really think linking the fact they were trans to the reason they murdered people is helpful

 

[Chief]

I think whenever someone shoots up a bunch of kids we shouldn’t be looking for the first thing that will alleviate them of culpability and semi-blame the victims just because we feel the need to take sides in the culture wars.

This stems from a misunderstanding of the difference between "blame" and "consequences".

A person who is orphaned, abused in state care, mental development delays and problems and so on.

Should they shoulder all of the blame for becoming abusers or abductors later in life? They do have to bear the consequences for their actions, whatever the case. But what could have stopped the harm they caused? Early intervention? Better facilities to house them? Better monitoring?

We can get caught up in hating that person exclusively, and do as you are doing which is refuse to see other interventions which could have stopped the harm in the first place. Dead people can't use your hate.

They could have used your vote for politicians that show a willingness to put money into, say, early intervention services and programs.

Hate the sin, not the sinner type stuff.

 

[Geelong_Sicko]

I think whenever someone shoots up a bunch of kids we shouldn’t be looking for the first thing that will alleviate them of culpability and semi-blame the victims just because we feel the need to take sides in the culture wars.

It's not about alleviating perpetrators of culpability after the fact, but stopping them from becoming perpetrators in the first place.

If the system's lack of empathy, compassion and understanding towards a young person at a confusing and tumultuous time in their lives leads to that person exploding into a rage of bullets at some point down the track isn't it better to stop that 'bomb' being made in the first place?

I know this places conservatives in quite the pickle. Trans kids need compassion. Understanding. That means acknowledging them for who they are and understanding the struggles that they're going through.

 

[the_interloper]

This stems from a misunderstanding of the difference between "blame" and "consequences".

A person who is orphaned, abused in state care, mental development delays and problems and so on.

Should they shoulder all of the blame for becoming abusers or abductors later in life? They do have to bear the consequences for their actions, whatever the case. But what could have stopped the harm they caused? Early intervention? Better facilities to house them? Better monitoring?

We can get caught up in hating that person exclusively, and do as you are doing which is refuse to see other interventions which could have stopped the harm in the first place. Dead people can't use your hate.

They could have used your vote for politicians that show a willingness to put money into, say, early intervention services and programs.

Hate the sin, not the sinner type stuff.

I'd sum it up as an explanation, not an excuse.

 

[Geelong_Sicko]

I agree 100% with you on this. Sadly I don't think this view extends to a lot of the mass shootings, usually everyone laughs at the "incel videos" or whatever the (generally straight white male) perpetrator posts online and doesn't wonder how it got to this point.

Too true. As I understand it, incels (involuntary celibates) are coming from a place where they feel marginalised because they can't form romantic/sexual relationships with anyone. They feel a state of celibacy has been forced upon them through no fault of their own. They feel rejected and marginalised and when that happens resentment and hate can't be far away.

They are ripe for the picking at the margins because at that stage they have no sense of self-worth let alone any belief in community or society.

Compassion and understanding can reach these people too. I believe that most, if not all, of these 'incel killers' could have been helped early on.

 

[faible]

this is the exact same line run out after a mass shooting by the conservative media when the shooter turns out to be a white supremacist

maybe if we'd been nicer to the nazi wanna be he wouldn't have gone a shot a bunch of people

the difference being that the nazi is going to kill people whether you are nice to them or not because it's an ideological position where as being trans isn't and I don't really think linking the fact they were trans to the reason they murdered people is helpful

Somewhat ironically, we know that most transgender people see improvements across pretty much every facet of mental health post transition. So if people really wanted to reduce the risks of transgender people committing mass shootings, they'd be supportive of more acceptance of trans people in society and better support for transgender people to transition.

Instead there's some who loudly proclaim to care about mental health, but then do the polar opposite and cut funding.

 

[Geelong_Sicko]

this is the exact same line run out after a mass shooting by the conservative media when the shooter turns out to be a white supremacist

maybe if we'd been nicer to the nazi wanna be he wouldn't have gone a shot a bunch of people

the difference being that the nazi is going to kill people whether you are nice to them or not because it's an ideological position where as being trans isn't and I don't really think linking the fact they were trans to the reason they murdered people is helpful

I do think it's worth investigating how hate groups expand, and what's going on in the 'growth pools' that they feed from. Prevention here in this area is also better than cure after the fact.

 

[Gralin]

I do think it's worth investigating how hate groups expand, and what's going on in the 'growth pools' that they feed from. Prevention here in this area is also better than cure after the fact.

dude a single trans person killing people is not a hate group

the whole if someone had been nicer to them as children they wouldn't grow up to be nazis and murderers is I think largely bullshit

its a cop out from a society that doesn't want to address the root cause of the issue of white supremacy

getting specific to america here you've got media and politicians actively egging people on to do this, they're proclaiming the great replacement and other bullshit to cover for what they themselves and capitalism out of control are doing

religion and poverty and right wing media and politicians stoke these fires and then when someone goes out and does what they nudge nudge wink wink told them to they all proclaim surprise and act like the problem was they had a single mom as a parent or some other bullshit

we already know why these people are ripe for the picking, governments are not interested in prevention and generally they aren't the targets of the results so they pay lip service, give cops more funding and go about their days

 

[schneebly111]

The more things change….

Here’s something interesting, it’s a live Q&A from an ABC current affairs program from 1976 (incorrectly labeled as 1982 in the title). They are doing a public forum in Mt Isa with gay liberation activist Lex Watson. Just listen to the abuse and accusations the rednecks throw at Lex and gay people, most accusing him and the gay lobby of leading a conspiracy to harm, exploit, rape and kill children; and you’ll see that not much has changed from anti-gay attitudes in the 70s to the anti-trans attitudes espoused by the right today:



Honestly Lex deserves a Victoria Cross for bravery for standing up in front of that crowd.

 

[Geelong_Sicko]

dude a single trans person killing people is not a hate group

I want to make this clear. I'm not calling trans people a hate group. They aren't the equivalent of a hate group. Their motivations are not that of a hate group.

the whole if someone had been nicer to them as children they wouldn't grow up to be nazis and murderers is I think largely bullshit

its a cop out from a society that doesn't want to address the root cause of the issue of white supremacy

I think, in the context of early intervention anyway, that 'being nicer to someone' involves a great deal more than being nice.

We are in a war here. The Far Right wants to destroy our common humanity. Fighting back means more than just killing the armed ones when they pop up, it means halting their spread in the margins of our communities.

"Immgrants! Dey tuk ur JEEEERBS!" say the redneck rabblerousers on South Park. It's funny, we laugh at them but the mindset is real.

Job security is an area of weakness that the Far Right love to exploit. Arresting the spread of these hate groups means addressing these areas of socio-economic hardship.

Kindness and compassion and empathy can go a long way towards winning the marginalised over from the hate groups.

Yes, it means being 'nice'. But that's only the beginning.

Getting specific to america here you've got media and politicians actively egging people on to do this, they're proclaiming the great replacement and other bullshit to cover for what they themselves and capitalism out of control are doing

Religion and poverty and right wing media and politicians stoke these fires and then when someone goes out and does what they nudge nudge wink wink told them to they all proclaim surprise and act like the problem was they had a single mom as a parent or some other bullshit.

We already know why these people are ripe for the picking, governments are not interested in prevention and generally they aren't the targets of the results so they pay lip service, give cops more funding and go about their days.

I one hundred percent agree. That nation is going to implode, and soon.

 

[gouki88]

this is the exact same line run out after a mass shooting by the conservative media when the shooter turns out to be a white supremacist

maybe if we'd been nicer to the nazi wanna be he wouldn't have gone a shot a bunch of people

the difference being that the nazi is going to kill people whether you are nice to them or not because it's an ideological position where as being trans isn't and I don't really think linking the fact they were trans to the reason they murdered people is helpful

I'm not so sure that this is right. Takeaways about trying to find pathways to derail radicalisation, in the case of white supremacist killers, or about providing more robust healthcare and wellbeing in the other cases, are not necessarily incorrect.

I agree with your overarching point that "being nicer to hateful people will sort things out", but I think that there are aggrievances (perceived or otherwise) which can be addressed that might help. It's the whole concept of aggrieved entitlement. It is not saying that we have to validate their grievances. I think, particularly in the case of the US, it involves societal reform to a very high degree.

 

[Back One Out]

I think whenever someone shoots up a bunch of kids we shouldn’t be looking for the first thing that will alleviate them of culpability and semi-blame the victims just because we feel the need to take sides in the culture wars.

Isn't that what you are doing though?

Feeling the need to take sides in in the culture wars as a knee-jerk response to this Nashville school shooting?

[I haven't read the thread, so apologies if I'm wrong about that]

But if not you, then certainly the Right Wing media and their audiences have responded that way. If someone questions why the killer would do this atrocity, they have been met with a tidal wave of "Don't align yourself with that garbage, you sicko!!! What about the poor children?!?! Don't you care about them?!?"

Any attempts made by people to keep the peace, to de-escalate the situation and prevent further violence have been met with the usual scorn, ridicule, shaming, and aggrievement from foaming right wingers.

e.g. Cops not releasing the killer's "manifesto"... RWNJ's: SHOW US THE MANIFESTO!!!!

Vloggers, YouTubers and trolls have gone into overdrive since this occurred. It's like all their Christmases have come at once. Their anti-trans and anti-left rhetoric has intensified alarmingly over the past few days. I actually can't believe what I'm seeing & hearing. I always scoffed when alarmists spoke about a 'civil war', but now I'm not so sure. With the ease of gun ownership in USA, it's only a matter of time before people start shooting each other instead of sending mean tweets.

 

[Back One Out]

Thank god, the trans activists in America have decided to cancel their "Day Of Vengeance" rally in Washington DC

I thought they were digging in and going ahead with their pre-planned event. It had all the makings of being one of the more tone-deaf protests we've ever seen, held just days after the Nashville shooting.

It was like watching a car crash in slow motion. People were surely going to be killed.

I'm guessing they'd received threats galore, bomb threats, counter protests from fascists. Maybe the organisers had talks with the cops in DC who said they wouldn't be able to guarantee anyone's safety and wanted no part of this.