Review Vent thread vs Brisbane. That's all folks

[Dry Rot]

While the win/loss record is disappointing, I believe that people need to realise that this year was never about the wins, it was about the youngsters - and look at the potential stars we've uncovered. Wallis, Libba and Dahl are superstars, Dickson was fantastic, Jong, JJ, Campbell, Pearce, Roberts, Talia all look like being great players.

Gilding the lily there just a bit?

"are superstars", "fantastic", "great players"?

Aside no tall forwards, a big problem is that we don't have any great players aside from Griff. The rest look like they will serviceable to quite good.

 

[Dannnnnnnnnn]

Gilding the lily there just a bit?

"are superstars", "fantastic", "great players"?

Aside no tall forwards, a big problem is that we don't have any great players aside from Griff. The rest look like they will serviceable to quite good.

They definitely look like being superstars. I'm sorry, would you have me believe that Wallis, Libba, Dahl and Dickson, at the very least, don't look like great players? But since that's subjective, I'll let that slide.

But no tall forwards, are you absolutely kidding me? Minson can play forward, Campbell will play forward/ruck, Cordy plays forward, Jones plays forward...they aren't playing their best, no, but they're definitely still there and are still young.

And no, I'm not 'gilding the lily' - I'm optimistic, as you clearly are not. I flatter the players that deserve it, and from all we've seen so far, a lot of these youngsters could be great players.

But if you're going to maintain that the only great player on our list is Griffen, I can't be bothered spending time explaining myself.

 

[HK_Bulldog]

Jong confirmed to me that he will make it. I watched him in the third quarter and he obviously wasn't right but he just kept going in. He's made of the right stuff that kid.

 

[Leon]

They definitely look like being superstars. I'm sorry, would you have me believe that Wallis, Libba, Dahl and Dickson, at the very least, don't look like great players? But since that's subjective, I'll let that slide.

But no tall forwards, are you absolutely kidding me? Minson can play forward, Campbell will play forward/ruck, Cordy plays forward, Jones plays forward...they aren't playing their best, no, but they're definitely still there and are still young.

And no, I'm not 'gilding the lily' - I'm optimistic, as you clearly are not. I flatter the players that deserve it, and from all we've seen so far, a lot of these youngsters could be great players.

But if you're going to maintain that the only great player on our list is Griffen, I can't be bothered spending time explaining myself.

Those players do not look like superstars.

They will be very good players no doubt but to me a superstar has the potential to one day be in say the top 5 in the competition, as say Franklin, Ablett or Judd are.

Also, Minson cannot play forward. This has been obvious for years. The fact that Jones is struggling to get a game in a forward line as inept as ours is hugely concerning.

I believe there is a time for both optimism and pessimism when you are supporting a football club. Sadly, at the moment the time is to be pessimistic, and a fair few things need to happen and change for anything resembling optimism to start to creep in.

 

[Dry Rot]

But if you're going to maintain that the only great player on our list is Griffen, I can't be bothered spending time explaining myself.

Yes, it's easier not having to explain your extravagant claims. I mean, it's not like this is a forum, or anything.

They definitely look like being superstars. I'm sorry, would you have me believe that Wallis, Libba, Dahl and Dickson, at the very least, don't look like great players? But since that's subjective, I'll let that slide.

So now they're "only" great players not superstars? I think that lot will be very good, but they probably won't be superstars like Hodge, Hayes and Rioli.

Jong, JJ, Campbell, Pearce, Roberts, Talia all look like being great players.

Really? All of them look like great players to you now?

But no tall forwards, are you absolutely kidding me? Minson can play forward, Campbell will play forward/ruck, Cordy plays forward, Jones plays forward...they aren't playing their best, no, but they're definitely still there and are still young.

Minson is a proven dud forward, Campbell too early to tell but mobility could be an issue. Jones and Cordy have the forward instincts of Dale Morris, without the defensive side.

No, we have no real tall forwards.

 

[Trugo3013]

Jong confirmed to me that he will make it. I watched him in the third quarter and he obviously wasn't right but he just kept going in. He's made of the right stuff that kid.

I hope so. He'll get games on attitude alone for a short while, I think, which will buy him a bit of time to improve his skills. Unquestionably hard.

 

[Dry Rot]

Those players do not look like superstars.

They will be very good players no doubt but to me a superstar has the potential to one day be in say the top 5 in the competition, as say Franklin, Ablett or Judd are.

Also, Minson cannot play forward. This has been obvious for years. The fact that Jones is struggling to get a game in a forward line as inept as ours is hugely concerning.

I believe there is a time for both optimism and pessimism when you are supporting a football club. Sadly, at the moment the time is to be pessimistic, and a fair few things need to happen and change for anything resembling optimism to start to creep in.

Agreed. I hope the football dept has a more realistic view than Dannnnnnnnnnnn, other wise we're rooted.

 

[Dannnnnnnnnn]

Those players do not look like superstars.

They will be very good players no doubt but to me a superstar has the potential to one day be in say the top 5 in the competition, as say Franklin, Ablett or Judd are.

How can you say that these 20-odd year olds, who have done nothing but impress hugely in their first couple years don't even have the potential to be superstars? Yes, maybe I used the word a little lightly, sue me - but at the end of the day they've shown a hell of a lot for just kids, and I think it's unfair to write them off as having no chance. For what we expect of them at this point, they're superstars. They aren't superstars in the AFL, but they've definitely well and truly surpassed what we expected of them by now.

Yes, it's easier not having to explain your extravagant claims. I mean, it's not like this is a forum, or anything.



So now they're "only" great players not superstars? I think that lot will be very good, but they probably won't be superstars like Hodge, Hayes and Rioli.



Really? All of them look like great players to you now?



Minson is a proven dud forward, Campbell too early to tell but mobility could be an issue. Jones and Cordy have the forward instincts of Dale Morris, without the defensive side.

No, we have no real tall forwards.

So wait: Boyd, Murphy and Lake, all All-Australians, at the very least, aren't great players?

I was referring to your comment in which you refused to even call them great players. I stand by my statement that they have the potential to be superstars.

He's done a hell of a lot better this year, and played a few great games forward, and has definitely been working on his kicking issues. No, he's not perfect, but for now he's working on being up there. It is too early for Campbell, and Cordy hasn't shown too much, I agree. But Jones has shown the potential to be a really good marking tall forward. There's a lack of defensive pressure but that'll come with his build.

 

[Dannnnnnnnnn]

Agreed. I hope the football dept has a more realistic view than Dannnnnnnnnnnn, other wise we're rooted.

Lol. I'm not saying we're perfect, and I'm not saying nothing needs to change; it's clear that we do need change, and a lot of it - but I refuse to apologise for having faith in young players that have done nothing but impress in their first and second years. Excuse me for trying to get something positive out of a pretty dismal year, but we can't all stay completely negative.

 

[immortalmike]

First of all, a metaphorical "super coach" wouldn't have gotten us more than 6/7 wins this season. It just wasn't plausible with the amount of youngsters fielded.

It was not about how we won or lost it was about the manner in which we lost. We have been completely inept. I have never seen a run of games this uncompetetive in my life as a member of this club. This falls on the coach and his directives either during the week or if it is a fitness issue during the pre-season. You do realize we were the worst performed side in the last 11 weeks including the two expansion sides who are basically only youngsters.


McCartney has brought into the club a very different view on how footy should be played and it's the right way - it plays right into our strengths (a very tough midfield). At the end of the day, it's incredibly hard to change the game style of players, and with a team that lacks 'real' players in the 24-28 year age range, it's even more difficult. But Macca's started on the way to doing that, and I have to give him full credit.

Rodney Eade had us in the top 3 for contested possessions in every year he coached except the last. So I highly doubt Macca has a radically different message to convey. I do concede that he still needs time to completely stamp his mark on the playing list but he needs to convey more than "cracking in" and in time I'd like to hear more about ball movement and spread from the stoppages.


Even more impressive is the players. Yes, we've lost a lot in a row, but our youngsters still give it their all, every match (except today which was the rare exception this year). I mean look at Wood - throws his body on the line to spoil an almost certain goal with a few minutes to play when you're 10 goals down. That's commitment, and that shows that the coach is doing well keeping the players keen and keeping their heads screwed on right - which is even harder than re-training them at times.

The problem is that again in the second half of the year this is the exact team that has given up at half time, time and time again. I'm hoping this was more a fitness issue due to bad pre-season management and young bodies but GC and GWS's relative improvements in the second halfs in some late games this year has me worried.

While the win/loss record is disappointing, I believe that people need to realise that this year was never about the wins, it was about the youngsters - and look at the potential stars we've uncovered. Wallis, Libba and Dahl are superstars, Dickson was fantastic, Jong, JJ, Campbell, Pearce, Roberts, Talia all look like being great players. Addison loved a move forward - Macca's move forward, another big tick for him - and Roughy loved a move back. That's a lot of ticks for a coach that apparently hasn't done a great job.

I agree it's not about wins but more about deveplopment and competetiveness, both of which I have severe doubts about. I also agree with your list of players which is impressive and gives me some hope but Libba, Dahl and Wallis were stars in the making under Eade, Addison is basically the same player he always was in a severely depleted team, Roughy better just be for development because it's cutting off your nose to spite your face and Jones, Wood, Grant, Cordy, Sherman, and Vez, have stagnated and failed to improve this year and this is incredibly distressing as Jones and Wood looked to be our next stars under Eade.


Yes, it must be disheartening to see this record - it is for me, too. But we need these crap years. We've spent the past 15 years doing our best to stay in the midfield, and it cost us draft picks and potential great players. These years build teams, they build strength, they build players, they build the way a team plays together. This year was the beginning of greatness, I'm sure of it and I'm excited about it.

Some answers in bold. Overall I understand your opinion and even share some of them but it's very hard to mark Brendan as anything other than a disappointing to decent. I agree we probably have to go through some down years (although Geelong and Sydney haven't) in order to improve as a whole but in saying that I'm not entirely convinced that Macca deserves a free ride in all of this. Our uncompetetiveness has been disgraceful in the second half of the year and our coach shares a fair bit of the blame for that. In saying that though he also needs time to build a list his way and I guess as a supporter all you can do is hope for the best. But forgive me if I a few misgivings based on one of the worst periods I've ever experienced as a supporter.

 

[Dry Rot]

How can you say that these 20-odd year olds, who have done nothing but impress hugely in their first couple years don't even have the potential to be superstars? Yes, maybe I used the word a little lightly, sue me - but at the end of the day they've shown a hell of a lot for just kids, and I think it's unfair to write them off as having no chance. For what we expect of them at this point, they're superstars. They aren't superstars in the AFL, but they've definitely well and truly surpassed what we expected of them by now.

FFS, who is "writing them off"? They'll probably be very good players, but superstars are elite, and rare.

So wait: Boyd, Murphy and Lake, all All-Australians, at the very least, aren't great players?

They were, not now. See the blowtorch on Boyd thread, the end of season review of Murphy who I fear has Father Time catching up with him and vintage 2012 Lake is a shadow of his great self a few years ago.

He's done a hell of a lot better this year, and played a few great games forward, and has definitely been working on his kicking issues. No, he's not perfect, but for now he's working on being up there.

Who's "he"?

But Jones has shown the potential to be a really good marking tall forward. There's a lack of defensive pressure but that'll come with his build.

Jones can take a mark, but IMO Dickson has more forward's instinct in his little toe than Jones. I suspect Jones will end up in the backline.

 

[Dry Rot]

Lol. I'm not saying we're perfect, and I'm not saying nothing needs to change; it's clear that we do need change, and a lot of it - but I refuse to apologise for having faith in young players that have done nothing but impress in their first and second years. Excuse me for trying to get something positive out of a pretty dismal year, but we can't all stay completely negative.

It's not you're being positive, it's the massive overrating you're giving to a squad of young players who will probably end up serviceable to very good.

One of my biggest concerns is that we have a number of youngsters with poor kicking skills.

 

[Dannnnnnnnnn]

Some answers in bold. Overall I understand your opinion and even share some of them but it's very hard to mark Brendan as anything other than a disappointing to decent. I agree we probably have to go through some down years (although Geelong and Sydney haven't) in order to improve as a whole but in saying that I'm not entirely convinced that Macca deserves a free ride in all of this. Our uncompetetiveness has been disgraceful in the second half of the year and our coach shares a fair bit of the blame for that. In saying that though he also needs time to build a list his way and I guess as a supporter all you can do is hope for the best. But forgive me if I a few misgivings based on one of the worst periods I've ever experienced as a supporter.

Fair points. I understand and respect your decision, but perhaps I'm a little biased as I didn't expect much at all out of this year. Macca seems to have fast-tracked the development of quite a few youngsters, where in Eade's time (although a lot of them were unlucky with injury etc) they seemed to take a long while to come out of the gates, and I guess that's why I'm impressed. While the execution hasn't been there I've loved the brand of footy Macca's tried to instill in them, and it was very impressive to watch when on-song. I share your concerns about the endurance of some of the players, but I still feel as though that will be something that is thoroughly focused on during the off-season.
I think Macca's been great, simply because - when executed - the brand of footy we're playing now really favours the most promising youngsters in our side, and they're getting better under it. If nothing changes next year then I'll be very, very critical, but at this point I've been pretty impressed. Some of the onus comes to the coach, but when you're losing by that much that often I think it's definitely more of a player issue. But as I said, completely understand your view and I'm by no means having a go at you for it.

 

[immortalmike]

It's not you're being positive, it's the massive overrating you're giving to a squad of young players who will probably end up serviceable to very good.

One of my biggest concerns is that we have a number of youngsters with poor kicking skills.

Yep kicking is an issue but I believe there's a deeper issue in that they make poor decisions also. Hopefully this can be improved.

DR I do have to take issue with your assessment on Jones, as when he plays VFL he looks like the most natural forward you'll ever see but when he's asked to be the man in the seniors he either craps himself or is blanketed by bigger bodies I'm hoping the issue is physical rather than mental.

 

[Leon]

How can you say that these 20-odd year olds, who have done nothing but impress hugely in their first couple years don't even have the potential to be superstars? Yes, maybe I used the word a little lightly, sue me - but at the end of the day they've shown a hell of a lot for just kids, and I think it's unfair to write them off as having no chance. For what we expect of them at this point, they're superstars. They aren't superstars in the AFL, but they've definitely well and truly surpassed what we expected of them by now.




So wait: Boyd, Murphy and Lake, all All-Australians, at the very least, aren't great players?

I was referring to your comment in which you refused to even call them great players. I stand by my statement that they have the potential to be superstars.

He's done a hell of a lot better this year, and played a few great games forward, and has definitely been working on his kicking issues. No, he's not perfect, but for now he's working on being up there. It is too early for Campbell, and Cordy hasn't shown too much, I agree. But Jones has shown the potential to be a really good marking tall forward. There's a lack of defensive pressure but that'll come with his build.

For one thing, I'm not saying you can't try and find positives, but I think you're exaggerating some of the positives greatly and are wrong in many others.

I'm excited by Wallis, Dahlhaus and Jong. They'll be part of the next side of ours that is a contender. But superstars? No way. That's not a slight against them - they'll be very good players, but at their peak I don't see them being talked about the way Ablett, Franklin etc (ie real superstars) are talked about now.

Also, listing Jones as a positive or being excited by him at the moment is dead wrong for mine. I'm yet to speak to a Bulldogs supporter that is not concerned about him or is pleased with where he is at.

The forward line is a huge worry at the moment and the players and solutions you have listed aren't going to fix the problem. Minson simply does not cut it as a forward. Cordy is absolutely miles off it.

Dry Rot is right in that Griffen is really the only genuine star we have.

I will start to be a bit more optimistic if the coaching staff over the next few months take action that shows that they recognize the problems and are trying to fix them.

 

[immortalmike]

Fair points. I understand and respect your decision, but perhaps I'm a little biased as I didn't expect much at all out of this year. Macca seems to have fast-tracked the development of quite a few youngsters, where in Eade's time (although a lot of them were unlucky with injury etc) they seemed to take a long while to come out of the gates, and I guess that's why I'm impressed. While the execution hasn't been there I've loved the brand of footy Macca's tried to instill in them, and it was very impressive to watch when on-song. I share your concerns about the endurance of some of the players, but I still feel as though that will be something that is thoroughly focused on during the off-season.
I think Macca's been great, simply because - when executed - the brand of footy we're playing now really favours the most promising youngsters in our side, and they're getting better under it. If nothing changes next year then I'll be very, very critical, but at this point I've been pretty impressed. Some of the onus comes to the coach, but when you're losing by that much that often I think it's definitely more of a player issue. But as I said, completely understand your view and I'm by no means having a go at you for it.

Can't argue with too much of that and to be honest I enjoyed most of the first half of the year and can see where Macca is trying to go and it's probably the biggest reason why I'm not on the sack B-Mac now bandwagon in that I believe he needs time to work with our list, which has more potential than what some credit it with.

 

[Dannnnnnnnnn]

FFS, who is "writing them off"? They'll probably be very good players, but superstars are elite, and rare.



They were, not now. See the blowtorch on Boyd thread, the end of season review of Murphy who I fear has Father Time catching up with him and vintage 2012 Lake is a shadow of his great self a few years ago.



Who's "he"?



Jones can take a mark, but IMO Dickson has more forward's instinct in his little toe than Jones. I suspect Jones will end up in the backline.

"but to me a superstar has the potential to one day be in say the top 5 in the competition"
^Don't see how that's not writing them off as having the potential to be one, mate. Besides, you're taking me too literally - they're superstars at the moment, when compared with what you'd expect of kids their age. Wallis and Libba go harder than most mature players and have the ability to set up play and be really damaging. Dahl has that undoubted x-factor and ball-winning ability that is rare. For a group of 19 year olds, they're superstars, but no, they don't stand up to the likes of Cotchin, Swan, Watson etc, and they may not ever.

The whole business with Boyd goes on every year, even when he got his AA selections. He's still a great player; has the most disposals of anybody at a pretty decent efficiency rate. I think Murph's age is catching up to him, but he's still been pretty instrumental this year (albeit in a lesser role) and in my opinion is still a great player. Picken's one of the game's best taggers and I think that definitely classifies him as being a great player. Not disagreeing with you that we lack genuine stars, but saying that only one player qualifies as "great" is a bit of an insult to them.

Minson. He's provided some great body work up forward and while he'll never be a full-time forward, has shown in bits this year that he can compete up there, at least better than past years.

You could be right, but I still think he's earned himself more time. A dismal season this year, but I still think that a bit of confidence and build could go a long way for him.

 

[Dannnnnnnnnn]

For one thing, I'm not saying you can't try and find positives, but I think you're exaggerating some of the positives greatly and are wrong in many others.

I'm excited by Wallis, Dahlhaus and Jong. They'll be part of the next side of ours that is a contender. But superstars? No way. That's not a slight against them - they'll be very good players, but at their peak I don't see them being talked about the way Ablett, Franklin etc (ie real superstars) are talked about now.

Also, listing Jones as a positive or being excited by him at the moment is dead wrong for mine. I'm yet to speak to a Bulldogs supporter that is not concerned about him or is pleased with where he is at.

The forward line is a huge worry at the moment and the players and solutions you have listed aren't going to fix the problem. Minson simply does not cut it as a forward. Cordy is absolutely miles off it.

Dry Rot is right in that Griffen is really the only genuine star we have.

I will start to be a bit more optimistic if the coaching staff over the next few months take action that shows that they recognize the problems and are trying to fix them.

Fair enough, and I think most of the issue here is to do with my wording, and I accept that I probably shouldn't have referred to them as superstars without some explanation as to what I meant. But at the end of the day being metaphorically jumped on because of semantics is a little bit too far. I apologise for my wording, but I still maintain their potential.

Oh, I didn't mean to put Jones as a positive (in fact I've given him the lowest rating out of any player this year in my report card), just that he could be capable of playing that tall forward role after a bit more development. They aren't going to fix it, no, our forward line is nothing short of a disaster, and I'm one of the biggest advocates of recruiting a key forward. I just don't think a tall is going to solve our problems, and I don't think it should be the biggest focus. At the end of the day the tall will create a contest, and I think any of those are more than capable of doing it. Not solving the problem, no, far from it; but I think they're capable of playing the role designed for them.

I actually think we agree on most things, it was just a poor choice of wording and a little agitation that got in the way of it.

 

[Leon]

No need to apologise mate!

I think we have done the right thing by blooding these young kids and think they will be very good players. But even though they have been impressive we are still miles away from being a good side.

I suppose one way of looking at it is that this year is the start of the long road back. A rebuild takes time and we are at the very start of ours.

Definite reason to be positive about our younger players but heaps and heaps of work has to be done still.

Enjoy the off season, no more horrible second half fade outs and dreadful performances until 2013!

 

[dogwatch]

Back to the thread topic ... I didn't watch the game and I'm not sure I want to now, but I'll venture a guess that for the players - as much as the supporters - this was one game too many. Nothing to play for and just seeing out time. Having to fly to Brisbane and back would have made it that much more tedious. Didn't seem to give a yelp early but probably played for a bit of pride and self respect in the last quarter. Also lots of young kids not used to the rigours of a full AFL season (a bit different to TAC Cup). They would be only too ready for a good rest and some down time.

For those who watched ... is that what it looked like?

 

[TempleKelvington]

Back to the thread topic ... I didn't watch the game and I'm not sure I want to now, but I'll venture a guess that for the players - as much as the supporters - this was one game too many. Nothing to play for and just seeing out time. Having to fly to Brisbane and back would have made it that much more tedious. Didn't seem to give a yelp early but probably played for a bit of pride and self respect in the last quarter. Also lots of young kids not used to the rigours of a full AFL season (a bit different to TAC Cup). They would be only too ready for a good rest and some down time.

For those who watched ... is that what it looked like?

Only saw the first half. It was a pretty scrappy game, both sides made a lot strange errors. Brisbane at least played with some purpose. We seemed content to handball and backward, sideways any way but forward. Our reluctance to play on quickly and move the ball forward has been an issue for a lot of this year, but it was as bad as I have seen them this year.

We work hard to get the ball, but then have no idea what to do with it. Our skills are poor, but I think the constant short handball and kicking in circles allows the opposition to press and force errors. Our forward line has next to no chance becuase we get it in there too slowly.

It could be confidence, maybe it how they want them to play? I'm not sure....but we must find a way to be far more agressive in out ball movement. There are time when you have to take risk and take the game on, there are time when you need to be more defensive....we have teh balance all wrong.

 

[Curly5]

You guys didn't do to bad, it was looking to be a 100 point flogging untill you faught back and you guys played a better last quarter cheer up

Thanks for that. And we must remember that Brisbane went through some hard times over the past few years as well, so there is hope for us. Players and supporters and especially members must hang tough.

 

[Curly5]

Back to the thread topic ... I didn't watch the game and I'm not sure I want to now, but I'll venture a guess that for the players - as much as the supporters - this was one game too many. Nothing to play for and just seeing out time. Having to fly to Brisbane and back would have made it that much more tedious. Didn't seem to give a yelp early but probably played for a bit of pride and self respect in the last quarter. Also lots of young kids not used to the rigours of a full AFL season (a bit different to TAC Cup). They would be only too ready for a good rest and some down time.

For those who watched ... is that what it looked like?

Exactly. It quickly became unwatchable. No matter what the coach would say to you, your subconscious would be telling you that today doesn't matter, it just has to be got through.And that's what we saw.

I wonder if there's a way to make these dead rubbers a bit more interesting - like fun uniforms, or cash incentives, or what?

 

[BWFC]

We need a new coach. I'm convinced. This year we went backwards. We have a very very ordinary list. Not one single promising key forward developing. Panos could be a player but how would we ever know when he doesn't get a game even in the last round when the season was shot. Bizarre.

Talia and Roberts look promising but they're years away from forming a finals back line.
The midfield is history repeating. Wallis is slow and can't kick. Clay Smith can't kick. And Libba? well we all know where he is. Seriously not really promising is it.

At minimum we will be out of the 8 for the next five years.

Imagine Minson leaves too... we'll have no ruckman. Seeing as Cordy is a forward who can't mark and doesn't kick goals. And Roughead all of a sudden is a key defender. Maybe they'll play Jones in the ruck again lol.

 

[Bulldog1954]

The midfield is history repeating. Wallis is slow and can't kick. Clay Smith can't kick. And Libba? well we all know where he is. Seriously not really promising is it.

Wallis' kicking is fine, will be a genuine gun. Smith can't kick, Wallis' disposal is far better