Europe War in Ukraine - Thread 4 - thread rules updated

[Gethelred]

This is the thread for discussing the War in Ukraine. Should you want to discuss the geopolitics, the history, or an interesting tangent, head over here:

Europe - Backdrop to the war in Ukraine

This is the thread for the geopolitics, history and framework around the Russia-Ukraine conflict. If you want to discuss the events of the war, head over to this thread: https://www.bigfooty.com/forum/threads/war-in-ukraine-thread-4-thread-rules-updated.1376293/page-146

www.bigfooty.com

If a post isn't directly concerning the events of the war or starts to derail the thread, report the post to us and we'll move it over there.

Seeing as multiple people seem to have forgotten, abuse is against the rules of BF. Continuous, page long attacks directed at a single poster in this thread will result in threadbans for a week from this point; doing so again once you have returned will make the bans permanent and will be escalated to infractions.

This thread still has misinformation rules, and occasionally you will be asked to demonstrate a claim you have made by moderation. If you cannot, you will be offered the opportunity to amend the post to reflect that it's opinion, to remove the post, or you will be threadbanned and infracted for sharing misinformation.

Addendum: from this point, use of any variant of the word 'orc' to describe combatants, politicians or russians in general will be deleted and the poster will receive a warning. If the behaviour continues, it will be escalated. Consider this fair warning.

Finally: If I see the word Nazi or Hitler being flung around, there had better have a good faith basis as to how it's applicable to the Russian invasion - as in, video/photographic evidence of POW camps designed to remove another ethnic group - or to the current Ukrainian army. If this does not occur, you will be threadbanned for posting off topic

This is a sensitive area, and I understand that this makes for fairly incensed conversation sometimes. This does not mean the rules do not apply, whether to a poster positing a Pro-Ukraine stance or a poster positing an alternative view.

Behave, people.

 

[kranky al]

 

[IlovethePies]

Trump represents powerful sections of the US ruling class who now believe that the war in Ukraine is an expensive failure. He now wants immediate US access to Ukraine’s rare earths and other strategic assets by negotiating a deal with Putin.

A section of the American ruling class, epitomized by the world’s richest man, Elon Musk, views Europe not as an ally but as a direct competitor. This group is willing to consider a political, economic and even military alliance with Russia to counter what they perceive as a greater threat to US strategic interests: the European Union.

Russia is a minor economic power, largely dependent on supplying the world economy with raw materials, fuels and foodstuffs. In contrast, Europe collectively is America’s largest economic rival after China, with an economy 10 times the size of Russia’s. Trump has repeatedly attacked the EU, calling it an “atrocity” designed to “screw” America.

The existence of NATO is not guaranteed any longer. The European elite is terrified by the prospect of an alliance between Russia and the US, against them.

Currently, the European leaders are hoping to stop Trump by appealing to other sections of the US capitalist class who oppose Trump's orientation to Putin. These sectiions are represented politically by the Democratic party. They are rabidly hostile to Russia, caught in a time warp of the old Cold War arrangements where NATO was used by the US as a mechanism for unifying Europe - but under US domination - against the common Soviet threat.

What we are witnessing is a historic breakup of all the old geopolitical framework. Elon Musk tweeted a few days ago his agreement with the departure of the US from the UN and NATO.

 

[IlovethePies]

Vance is a beauty isn’t he. Reverse Kissinger. But Kissinger was actually foreign affairs not the ‘spare’

Vance is just another face of US imperialism.
His policy of hostility to Europe and the possiblity of seeking an alliance of some kind with Russia flows not from individual personal differences between the Vance and Kissinger, but from the fact that we have entered an different period of history. The post War arrangements are over.

 

[IlovethePies]

Here are the words of Democrat senator Chris Murphy:
“absolutely shameful… The White House has become an arm of the Kremlin. Every single day, you hear from the national security adviser, from the president of the United States, from his entire national security team Kremlin talking points.”

- sounds exactly the same as the sound bytes from most of the posters here. In fact, meaning-wise, identical.

And here are the words of Bernie Sanders: “... our job is to defend the 250-year tradition that we have of being the democratic leader of the world, not turn our backs on a struggling country that is trying to do the right thing.”

Words, or variations thereof, that I have read countless times here from supposedly highly knowledgeable posters.

These posters regularly condemn any conflicting view as "Russian propagandist", yet do not see that they themselves simply parrot the lying drivel of US imperialist politicians.

These posters do not actually recognise propaganda. They believe that anything that opposes their opinion is "pro-Russian", and fail to even realise that they simply repeat that with nauseating predictability the entire political line of the US Democratic Party.

 

[wannabejack]

Posting this because of the wording in the first paragraph.

NBN Co set to choose Amazon over Musk’s Starlink for satellite service

Amazon last year said Australia would be one of the first countries offered access to its Kuiper low earth orbit network of 3236 satellites, known as a LEOSat network.

www.afr.com

Tech giant Amazon is set to win a multimillion-dollar deal to offer satellite internet to rural and regional Australia on behalf of the National Broadband Network, trumping billionaire Elon Musk’s Starlink.

 

[Smeg Head]

Posting this because of the wording in the first paragraph.

NBN Co set to choose Amazon over Musk’s Starlink for satellite service

Amazon last year said Australia would be one of the first countries offered access to its Kuiper low earth orbit network of 3236 satellites, known as a LEOSat network.

www.afr.com

Tech giant Amazon is set to win a multimillion-dollar deal to offer satellite internet to rural and regional Australia on behalf of the National Broadband Network, trumping billionaire Elon Musk’s Starlink.

I mean Bezos is also a trump hole tounger, just a little more background that president musk.

 

[IlovethePies]

I knew Trump was crazy, but to start an on-camera shouting match with Zelenskyy - and effectively extort Ukraine out of its minerals and please Putin - is something else.

Why do you think Trump is crazy because he is trying to extort Ukraine out of its minerals and at the same time backstab the erstwhile US European "allies" by freezing them all out of the carve up?

He is doing what any genuine, full blooded imperialist gangster would do.

 

[Mobbs]

Ufa is a bit further on past Kazan. I used to know people there. Unsure if they're there anymore. Not actually the furthest drone strike, but it's a long way from home.

 

[IlovethePies]

Trump won't last long going down this path as a US president.


How much evidence of collusion with Putin/Russia would be needed for impeachment / removal? Is he the next Nixon?

No. More likely the first US Hitler.

 

[Aussie in exile]

Trump represents powerful sections of the US ruling class who now believe that the war in Ukraine is an expensive failure. He now wants immediate US access to Ukraine’s rare earths and other strategic assets by negotiating a deal with Putin.

A section of the American ruling class, epitomized by the world’s richest man, Elon Musk, views Europe not as an ally but as a direct competitor. This group is willing to consider a political, economic and even military alliance with Russia to counter what they perceive as a greater threat to US strategic interests: the European Union.

Russia is a minor economic power, largely dependent on supplying the world economy with raw materials, fuels and foodstuffs. In contrast, Europe collectively is America’s largest economic rival after China, with an economy 10 times the size of Russia’s. Trump has repeatedly attacked the EU, calling it an “atrocity” designed to “screw” America.

The existence of NATO is not guaranteed any longer. The European elite is terrified by the prospect of an alliance between Russia and the US, against them.

Currently, the European leaders are hoping to stop Trump by appealing to other sections of the US capitalist class who oppose Trump's orientation to Putin. These sectiions are represented politically by the Democratic party. They are rabidly hostile to Russia, caught in a time warp of the old Cold War arrangements where NATO was used by the US as a mechanism for unifying Europe - but under US domination - against the common Soviet threat.

What we are witnessing is a historic breakup of all the old geopolitical framework. Elon Musk tweeted a few days ago his agreement with the departure of the US from the UN and NATO.

The US has a history of failure in overseas wars.
They couldn't even defeat 3rd world countries Vietnam and Afghanistan.

 

[RonSon]

Russia not far off a million casualties on their side in the war now.

Do the Russians count those that are sent back into the field on crutches as casualties?

 

[IlovethePies]

Here’s the dumb arse thing about that.

Russia has been a historical enemy of the us for near a century.

The US - for absolute peanuts - and I mean peanuts. All the bullshit costs they have listed are replacement costs, not 20-30 or 40 year old weapon systems that actually cost money to demob.

The us has utterly degraded all the Soviet war stocks for cents in the dollar and no boots on the ground.

If you had have offered Reagan this he’d have laughed himself to sleep for the last 3 years …..

To understand the current situation, one needs to shake off the old Cold War framework, because it is collapsing before our very eyes.

Russia is no longer the Soviet Union. It is a minor player in the global economy. The combined economies of the EU are ten times the size of Russia's.

China, instead of a poverty stricken country devastated by ww2 and then civil war, is now an economic colossus which threatens the economic hegemony of the US.

The US dollar, instead of being the reserve currency of the world, is now threatened from all sides by lack of confidence in the ability of the US government to honour its massive debts, accumulated from endless corporate bailouts, unrestrained printing of money as part of quantitative easing, and gigantic military spending.

Every single parameter has been flipped into its opposite.

There is no longer unanimity in the US ruling elite that Europe should be its strategic ally. Instead, Europe is now viewed as a serious competitor, and a potential alliance with Russia to first strangle Europe and accumulate the resources for the ultimate show down with China, is gaining ascendancy in the US ruling elite

 

[Jello_B]

Ufa is a bit further on past Kazan. I used to know people there. Unsure if they're there anymore. Not actually the furthest drone strike, but it's a long way from home.

Hey there Mobbs. Seems like both sides are claiming they are gaining territory at the moment. Is it still fairly stagnant on the front line from your sources?

 

[swingdog]

Hey there Mobbs. Seems like both sides are claiming they are gaining territory at the moment. Is it still fairly stagnant on the front line from your sources?

Just for some perspective, according to the Institute for the Study of War, it will take Russia 83 years to capture the rest of Ukraine at their current rate of advance.

Institute for the Study of War

Russian President Vladimir Putin ordered the unprovoked full-scale invasion of Ukraine three years ago on February 24, 2022. Ukraine has not been defeated or destroyed but remains resilient and innovative in the face of this unjustified Russian

www.understandingwar.org

 

[Visions]

View attachment 2239117
Apparently Zelenskyy still hasn’t got a suit!

"We gather here today because this is a once-in-a-generation moment for the security of Europe and we all need to step up,"
The four-point plan consists of:

1. Providing ongoing military aid to Ukraine and intensifying economic pressure on Russia for as long as the war continues
2. Ensuring Ukraine’s sovereignty in peace negotiations, with Ukraine guaranteed a seat at the table
3. Creating European safeguards to prevent any future Russian invasions, should a peace agreement be reached
4. Forming a “coalition of the willing” to protect Ukraine and maintain peace in the country.

Don't know why they are intent on presenting it to Krasnov who will just reject it out of hand, but its good to see that Europe are taking their own stance on this.

It's clear to see why the orange ghoul hates this whole situation. He wanted the Nobel peace prize on his own so didn't want to involve anyone else but his US minions. The problem was that the muppet with his big fat blabbermouth as usual made a stupid comment, this time saying he could end the war quickly. After meeting with the Russians, it has become evident that they aren't interested in a fair deal, so his "quick" ending is not going to happen. As a result he needed someone to blame, and who better than Zelensky, hence why he copped it the other day.

I cant wait for him to visit the UK. The protests will be ****en enormous.

 

[Visions]

But Zelensky is in the wrong, doesn't wear a suit and needs to apologise......

 

[Visions]

After the terrorists spent the last 6 months grinding their way into taking Torestsk, Ukraine has mounted a counter recently and seemingly looking at a pincer.

Those donkeys mustn't be delivering ammunition to the front fast enough.....

 

[Zidane98]

After the terrorists spent the last 6 months grinding their way into taking Torestsk, Ukraine has mounted a counter recently and seemingly looking at a pincer.

Those donkeys mustn't be delivering ammunition to the front fast enough.....

Don't tell our resident vatniks.....

 

[Mobbs]

Hey there Mobbs. Seems like both sides are claiming they are gaining territory at the moment. Is it still fairly stagnant on the front line from your sources?

Hello Jello (quite rightly). From what I can tell movement / gains are very stagnant but fighting is still busy. RF is gaining ground but extremely slowly now. Ukraine is staging many counters, with some success. BUT RF is still gaining more ground in Kursk oblast, and gaining a little ground north of Kupyansk. The rest of the frontline is barely changing.

 

[Chief]

It was more Vance than Trump that started the problem. Why did Vance feel he could get away with hijacking his bosses meeting?

Apparently he was told to do it so Trump didn't have to look like a whiney child, as he has so many times before.

 

[Dirty Bird]

The US has a history of failure in overseas wars.
They couldn't even defeat 3rd world countries Vietnam and Afghanistan.

Vietnam was a 2nd world country......

 

[Present Not Past]

Britain and France are just waiting to send it's troops into Ukraine to support the ceasefire.
Once Ukraine secures it's mineral's deal with the US.
Russia can threaten all it wants with nuclear retaliation, but Britain and France will retaliate with their own nuclear weapons as well.

 

[OneGreatClub]

Posting this because of the wording in the first paragraph.

NBN Co set to choose Amazon over Musk’s Starlink for satellite service

Amazon last year said Australia would be one of the first countries offered access to its Kuiper low earth orbit network of 3236 satellites, known as a LEOSat network.

www.afr.com

Tech giant Amazon is set to win a multimillion-dollar deal to offer satellite internet to rural and regional Australia on behalf of the National Broadband Network, trumping billionaire Elon Musk’s Starlink.

I see the ‘trumping’ lol but feeling we shouldn’t trust anything American any more. Bezos is on the Trump train too.

 

[OneGreatClub]

Britain and France are just waiting to send it's troops into Ukraine to support the ceasefire.
Once Ukraine secures it's mineral's deal with the US.
Russia can threaten all it wants with nuclear retaliation, but Britain and France will retaliate with their own nuclear weapons as well.

I hope once and for all Ukraine is safe. They have been invaded so many times but this explains their extreme resilience and tenacity against all odds. I hope Putin does not to keep the land it stole and the children it stole. What a shithead Putin is.

 

[OneGreatClub]

Don't know why they are intent on presenting it to Krasnov who will just reject it out of hand, but its good to see that Europe are taking their own stance on this.

It's clear to see why the orange ghoul hates this whole situation. He wanted the Nobel peace prize on his own so didn't want to involve anyone else but his US minions. The problem was that the muppet with his big fat blabbermouth as usual made a stupid comment, this time saying he could end the war quickly. After meeting with the Russians, it has become evident that they aren't interested in a fair deal, so his "quick" ending is not going to happen. As a result he needed someone to blame, and who better than Zelensky, hence why he copped it the other day.

I cant wait for him to visit the UK. The protests will be ****en enormous.

Wouldn’t it be great if Macron/ Starmer got the Peace Prize. Vain Trump would be furious.