Europe War in Ukraine - Thread 4 - thread rules updated

[Gethelred]

This is the thread for discussing the War in Ukraine. Should you want to discuss the geopolitics, the history, or an interesting tangent, head over here:

Europe - Backdrop to the war in Ukraine

This is the thread for the geopolitics, history and framework around the Russia-Ukraine conflict. If you want to discuss the events of the war, head over to this thread: https://www.bigfooty.com/forum/threads/war-in-ukraine-thread-4-thread-rules-updated.1376293/page-146

www.bigfooty.com

If a post isn't directly concerning the events of the war or starts to derail the thread, report the post to us and we'll move it over there.

Seeing as multiple people seem to have forgotten, abuse is against the rules of BF. Continuous, page long attacks directed at a single poster in this thread will result in threadbans for a week from this point; doing so again once you have returned will make the bans permanent and will be escalated to infractions.

This thread still has misinformation rules, and occasionally you will be asked to demonstrate a claim you have made by moderation. If you cannot, you will be offered the opportunity to amend the post to reflect that it's opinion, to remove the post, or you will be threadbanned and infracted for sharing misinformation.

Addendum: from this point, use of any variant of the word 'orc' to describe combatants, politicians or russians in general will be deleted and the poster will receive a warning. If the behaviour continues, it will be escalated. Consider this fair warning.

Finally: If I see the word Nazi or Hitler being flung around, there had better have a good faith basis as to how it's applicable to the Russian invasion - as in, video/photographic evidence of POW camps designed to remove another ethnic group - or to the current Ukrainian army. If this does not occur, you will be threadbanned for posting off topic

This is a sensitive area, and I understand that this makes for fairly incensed conversation sometimes. This does not mean the rules do not apply, whether to a poster positing a Pro-Ukraine stance or a poster positing an alternative view.

Behave, people.

 

[wannabejack]

By Adrian Karatnycky, "senior fellow at the Atlantic Council", surprised establishment figures like Sachs was appearing on odious Russian propaganda programs, now seems to be agreeing with Sachs.

Ukraine needs a government of national unity

The period of euphoria propelled by major military victories and territorial advances is over. So, too, is the period of grandiose promises by Ukrainian officials.

www.politico.eu

The politico article, as I see it, discusses "Zelenskyy’s support weakening, a deadlock on the front, a rapidly depleting supply of munitions, some erosion of support from Europe, and an impasse in the U.S. Congress over a bill to provide for the military needs of both Ukraine and Israel. His star power notwithstanding, Zelenskyy faces new difficulties in maintaining high levels of military and financial support for Ukraine both in North America and in Europe."
So the article is about Ukraine's (Zelenskyy's) situation as of DECEMBER 18, 2023

It doesn't discuss what Sach pushes

• the US attempt to expand NATO to Georgia and Ukraine triggered the wars in Georgia (in 2010) and in Ukraine.
• he repeatedly emphasizes that the expansion of NATO provoked Russia (e.g., “NATO should not enlarge, because that threatens the security of Russia).
• Crimea is effectively or at least de facto Russian.”
• Ukraine to be a neutral non-NATO country

This guy echoes Russian propaganda.

Maybe I'm missing something but I can't see anything in that article agreeing with Sach.

 

[wannabejack]

The historical record simply does not support the thesis that an expanding NATO bears sole blame for Russian antagonism with the West and Moscow’s aggression against Ukraine since 2014. Rather, we must look elsewhere to understand the genuine source of Putin’s hostility to Ukraine and its Western partners.

First look at the authors. Michael McFaul, Former Obama Ambassador to Russia, fanatical promoter of Trump - Russia collusion in 2016 and current Stanford Professor @McFaul responds to an anonymous critic in DMs (which he later deleted), by boasting what a lavish and wealthy life he leads and how he has adoring fans around the world:

View attachment 1890394

Michael McFaul, the former US ambassador to Russia, apologized for repeating a false statement that Adolf Hitler 'didn't kill ethnic Germans'

McFaul made the controversial statement on MSNBC as he condemned Russian President Vladimir Putin's invasion of Ukraine by comparing him to the dictator

Instead, McFaul and MSNBC drew criticism for sharing the lie that ethnic Germans were not among the victims of the Holocaust

MSNBC quickly deleted the video of McFaul's statement and apologized

The former ambassador had made a public apology last year after he made 'arrogant' boast about his house and salary on Twitter

Former U.S. ambassador Michael McFaul apologizes for Hitler statement

Michael McFaul, the former U.S. Ambassador to Russia, apologized for repeating a false statement that Adolf Hitler 'didn't kill ethnic Germans' when condemning Putin's invasion of Ukraine.

www.dailymail.co.uk

I guess we all say things we later regret. At least the former ambassador made a public apology.

Your Mr Sach supports russia and therefore condones the genocide of Ukrainians and makes no apologies. He has no regrets supporting russia.

 

[BlueE]

I guess we all say things we later regret. At least the former ambassador made a public apology.

Your Mr Sach supports russia and therefore condones the genocide of Ukrainians and makes no apologies. He has no regrets supporting russia.

True. But it was many lies and was he apologising because he meant it, or he got caught?

While Sachs made a mistake appearing on a program with a host that has extremist views, he is a diplomat, former special advisor to the US, economist and historian who in this interview is drawing comparisons to JFK's peace negotiations, and saying this should be happening in Ukraine.

The fact is McFaul has consistently supported and is an apologist for any war, including Iraq and what the US did in Central America and leading anti Russia war hawk.

 

[BlueE]

Can you explain what the comparisons are with 1984 instead of just quoting the premise? Getting an Orwell version of Godwin's Law vibe here. Orwell wrote extensively about the system lying to the proles and the fearmongering and threats based around anyone ever trying to ark up against the system. Everybody in Russia who has spoken up against Russia's imperialistic invasion, is now in jail. Everyone from major political figures like Kara-Murza to simple protesters like Skochilenko. So the 1984 references describe the RF quite well, which is why Russian protesters tried to hand the book out, and got arrested for it.

Can make the same comparisons with Ukraine banning one of the largest and oldest churches in Ukraine and any news service or TV station that might questioning their actions.

Ukraine are also imprisoning anyone that may question Zelenskyy's actions or dare to mention his financial backers. Highlighted with the death in custody recently of the US/Chilean reporter, Gonzalo Lira.

But Greenwald went into detail how the Orwellian world described in 1984, specifically with the quote "And if all others accepted the lie which the Party imposed - if all records told the same tale -- then the lie passed into history and became truth.", was being mirrored with multiple examples of mainstream media propaganda that manufactures population consent to war.

For example, Saddam Hussein went from close American ally in the 80s against Iran "to incomparable Hitlerian evil who must be vanquished, including because he had gassed his own people -- indeed an incredibly evil thing to do, albeit something he did when he was still a close U.S. ally with whom Donald Rumsfeld was shaking hands. The same thing happened with ally-turned-enemy Muammar al-Ghaddafi, of Libya, when it came time for that regime-change war and the same thing with ally-turned-new-Hitler Bashar al-Assad.

It wasn't that our government and its media alleged that anything had changed. It was that everything just started being rewritten and revised to imply that nothing had changed. That it had always been this way. And we are seeing this propagandistic framework more vividly than ever in how Ukraine is now talked about in the West, versus how they were discussing their country for eight years before Western populations needed to be convinced to send arms and massive amounts of their money there, even if it meant a proxy war or risking a direct hot war over Ukraine with a nuclear-armed power.

More examples with Ukraine where the press went from this ...

and Time magazine, Jan 7th 2021

How a White-Supremacist Militia Uses Facebook to Radicalize and Train New Members

This Ukrainian militant group’s use of social media has been key to their international growth

time.com

to ... Nothing to see here!

As Orwell wrote in that book, using his protagonist Winston Smith: “The Party said that Oceania had never been in alliance with Eurasia.

He, Winston Smith, knew that Oceania had been in alliance with Eurasia as short a time as four years ago. But where did that knowledge exist? Only in his own consciousness, which in any case must soon be annihilated. And if all others accepted the lie which the Party imposed - if all records told the same tale -- then the lie passed into history and became truth. 'Who controls the past’, ran the Party slogan, ‘controls the future: who controls the present controls the past'.

 

[Zidane98]

Investigation into civilian deaths in Maruipol. Estimated to be at 20% of the pre war population. In other words nearly 100,000 civilians dead from Russia's genocidal siege of the City in 2022.

 

[wannabejack]

'Worried For Our City': The Men Patrolling Russia's Belgorod

Almost two years into Russia's military offensive in Ukraine, Belgorod is increasingly suffering in a conflict the Kremlin promised would not change lives at home.

www.kyivpost.com

They patrol the city in pairs, helping people get to safety and organising medical courses for civilians. While they have military-like attire, they are not armed. (this is Belgorod's territorial defence.)

 

[Mobbs]

I can't properly quote reply while out on a phone. BlueE you can read more on Gonzalo Lira by searching this thread we are in for his name.

On SM-A146P using BigFooty.com mobile app

 

[Zidane98]

'Worried For Our City': The Men Patrolling Russia's Belgorod

Almost two years into Russia's military offensive in Ukraine, Belgorod is increasingly suffering in a conflict the Kremlin promised would not change lives at home.

www.kyivpost.com

They patrol the city in pairs, helping people get to safety and organising medical courses for civilians. While they have military-like attire, they are not armed. (this is Belgorod's territorial defence.)

Belgorod is not Russia.


It is the Independent People's Republic of Belgorod. Putin & co have bombed it many times because of the large amount of Ukranian speakers. Anyone who speaks Ukranian is pretty much at risk of execution or arrest.


Ukraine have every right to invade Belgorod and rejoin it back to Ukraine after the Russians stole it in 1922. Ukraine also needs to denazify Belgorod from the fascist Russian government lead by Adolf Putin to protect Ukranian speakers and also Ukranian citizens themselves.

 

[Zidane98]

I can't properly quote reply while out on a phone. BlueE you can read more on Gonzalo Lira by searching this thread we are in for his name.

On SM-A146P using BigFooty.com mobile app

Ironically he / she also repeatedly quotes Greenwald. Who wait for it - is an ardent defender of Neo Nazis! Also a major proponent of Kremlin disinformation.

 

[wannabejack]

Ukrainian military deny role in deadly strike on market in Russian-occupied Donetsk - Euromaidan Press

28 people were killed and 30 more injured in a shelling attack on a market in Russian-occupied Donetsk, according to Moscow-installed authorities.

euromaidanpress.com

 

[Bloods86]

But Greenwald went into detail how the Orwellian world described in 1984, specifically with the quote "And if all others accepted the lie which the Party imposed - if all records told the same tale -- then the lie passed into history and became truth.", was being mirrored with multiple examples of mainstream media propaganda that manufactures population consent to war.

I don't think you need to manufacture consent, if you or a democratic ally (even with some flaws) are the ones being invaded unprovoked by an authoritarian regime. You may need to show a war weary public what that regime is doing to remind them, especially as some without moral compasses are downplaying the clear distinction between the warring parties.

Greenwald, despite having been a principled journalist in days long past, fell victim to the simple-minded "America bad" view of foreign policy that some "on the left" can't escape (and I'm on the left), which then informs every perspective. He would have some insight into media propaganda true, but nowadays he's personally involved in it, rather than holding it to account consistently.

Greenwald himself predicted his future self in 2005:

"If "anti-American" means anything, I'd say it means an inclination to blame America for every world problem, and to vigilantly search for America's guilt while downplaying, ignoring, or excusing the guilt of its enemies."

"And therein lies the embodiment and definition of “anti-Americanism”: the parmaount [sic] desire to find fault and evil with the U.S. and thereby adopting that goal as the first and only real principle, from which everything else follows. That goal is then fulfilled by selectively and endlessly highlighting and exaggerating America’s faults and downplaying, ignoring and even defending far worse flaws in others. In its most virulent (and quite common) form, this extends to making common cause with the most abusive and genuinely evil regimes and movements around the world, whose only virtue –- the only one the European Left needs -- is that they are opposed by the U.S."

He was probably being kind to US Foreign Policy back then, but the sentiment remains true.

The true character of the European Left

My recent reference to Rep. Cynthia McKinney as a genuine “hater of America” sparked a dispute in my Comments section -- as well as on the...

glenngreenwald.blogspot.com

 

[ferball]

The politico article, as I see it, discusses "Zelenskyy’s support weakening, a deadlock on the front, a rapidly depleting supply of munitions, some erosion of support from Europe, and an impasse in the U.S. Congress over a bill to provide for the military needs of both Ukraine and Israel. His star power notwithstanding, Zelenskyy faces new difficulties in maintaining high levels of military and financial support for Ukraine both in North America and in Europe."
So the article is about Ukraine's (Zelenskyy's) situation as of DECEMBER 18, 2023

It doesn't discuss what Sach pushes

• the US attempt to expand NATO to Georgia and Ukraine triggered the wars in Georgia (in 2010) and in Ukraine.
• he repeatedly emphasizes that the expansion of NATO provoked Russia (e.g., “NATO should not enlarge, because that threatens the security of Russia).
• Crimea is effectively or at least de facto Russian.”
• Ukraine to be a neutral non-NATO country

This guy echoes Russian propaganda.

Maybe I'm missing something but I can't see anything in that article agreeing with Sach.

Just a daily reminder that Crimea was Russian until the head of the Ukrainian Communist Party transferred it to Ukraine while he was head of the USSR.

 

[Crankyhawk]

Just a daily reminder that Crimea was Russian until the head of the Ukrainian Communist Party transferred it to Ukraine while he was head of the USSR.

Transfer is a transfer no backsies. Russia be grateful that the veto that the USSR had didn’t go to one of the breakaway republics

 

[ferball]

Can make the same comparisons with Ukraine banning one of the largest and oldest churches in Ukraine and any news service or TV station that might questioning their actions.

Ukraine are also imprisoning anyone that may question Zelenskyy's actions or dare to mention his financial backers. Highlighted with the death in custody recently of the US/Chilean reporter, Gonzalo Lira.

But Greenwald went into detail how the Orwellian world described in 1984, specifically with the quote "And if all others accepted the lie which the Party imposed - if all records told the same tale -- then the lie passed into history and became truth.", was being mirrored with multiple examples of mainstream media propaganda that manufactures population consent to war.

For example, Saddam Hussein went from close American ally in the 80s against Iran "to incomparable Hitlerian evil who must be vanquished, including because he had gassed his own people -- indeed an incredibly evil thing to do, albeit something he did when he was still a close U.S. ally with whom Donald Rumsfeld was shaking hands. The same thing happened with ally-turned-enemy Muammar al-Ghaddafi, of Libya, when it came time for that regime-change war and the same thing with ally-turned-new-Hitler Bashar al-Assad.

It wasn't that our government and its media alleged that anything had changed. It was that everything just started being rewritten and revised to imply that nothing had changed. That it had always been this way. And we are seeing this propagandistic framework more vividly than ever in how Ukraine is now talked about in the West, versus how they were discussing their country for eight years before Western populations needed to be convinced to send arms and massive amounts of their money there, even if it meant a proxy war or risking a direct hot war over Ukraine with a nuclear-armed power.

More examples with Ukraine where the press went from this ...

and Time magazine, Jan 7th 2021

How a White-Supremacist Militia Uses Facebook to Radicalize and Train New Members

This Ukrainian militant group’s use of social media has been key to their international growth

time.com

to ... Nothing to see here!

As Orwell wrote in that book, using his protagonist Winston Smith: “The Party said that Oceania had never been in alliance with Eurasia.

He, Winston Smith, knew that Oceania had been in alliance with Eurasia as short a time as four years ago. But where did that knowledge exist? Only in his own consciousness, which in any case must soon be annihilated. And if all others accepted the lie which the Party imposed - if all records told the same tale -- then the lie passed into history and became truth. 'Who controls the past’, ran the Party slogan, ‘controls the future: who controls the present controls the past'.

Remember reading how much Azov loved Brenton Tarrant in nearly every western MSM source for months after he murdered a bunch of people, mostly women, kids and old people in their place of worship and community gathering place? Cos they were Muslims.

Meanwhile Europe is marching to the right for the same reasons.

I had a neighbour recently who was Indian but lived in Oz for decades before going to Italy to marry his love. He returned before their recent neo fascist government was elected because frankly the place wasn't safe for black people or their mixed race kids any more. There are far right parties contesting three regional German elections soon and that peroxided freak from Holland just won power in the first country in Europe to legalise weed.

But Bedpan Bandera wasn't a bad guy. Just misunderstood.

 

[wannabejack]

Just a daily reminder that Crimea was Russian until the head of the Ukrainian Communist Party transferred it to Ukraine while he was head of the USSR.

On 19 February 1954, the Presidium of the Supreme Soviet of the Soviet Union issued a decree transferring the Crimean Oblast from the Russian Soviet Federative Socialist Republic to the Ukrainian Soviet Socialist Republic.

 

[ferball]

Transfer is a transfer no backsies. Russia be grateful that the veto that the USSR had didn’t go to one of the breakaway republics

Crimea willingly ceded itself to Russia 300 years earlier, the opposite of what blackfellas did here, and some Ukrainian Communist Party dude undid that a few years before sending nukes to Cuba.

I'm not pointing this out cos I really care either, just that its interesting kind of irritating the way some people forget it while arguing the very opposite about other things and conflating Russia with the USSR as if they were the same thing and all the USSRs crimes (like ending feudalism and raising peasants out of abject poverty) or what have you were Russia's as well. Stalin was born in georgia. He wasn't Russian but i'll bet most of the clowns posting in this thread don't know that.

Putin is a campaigner but he's never hidden that or that he'll use the power available to him to achieve what he wants. People are judging him like he's a western leader who abides (lol or at least pretends to) by western values when he's constantly made it clear he doesn't give a rats about them. Meanwhile our leaders lie all the ****en time and do what they can to get away with the sort of shit Putin does. Putin isn't on my side. I don't expect anything from him other than he's a strong Russian leader and will behave like one. Strong Russian leaders had phrases like "the Terrible" attached to their names cos they were a pack of campaigners historically.

People have forgotten this and as a result cheer lead a bunch of offensive shit that we (ie the west) are responsible for. The leaders who claim to be on my side (supposedly).

We're (collectively us in the West) sposed to have standards, they don't and i don't think we've lived up to them at all in the last 20 years regarding Ukraine yet anyone who expresses this on this thread gets called racist names.

WTF is going on here?

(BTW Cranky I know you use the term orc, I've heard your reasons and that's your choice, most of what you post is cool so i'm not condemning you for that choice but i've not seen you use them against other posters here simply to ignore what they're saying the way some other posters do.)

 

[ferball]

On 19 February 1954, the Presidium of the Supreme Soviet of the Soviet Union issued a decree transferring the Crimean Oblast from the Russian Soviet Federative Socialist Republic to the Ukrainian Soviet Socialist Republic.

Yeah exactly. You don't even know who i'm talking about do you.

 

[wannabejack]

Yeah exactly. You don't even know who i'm talking about do you.

In September 1991, the Crimean parliament declared state sovereignty for Crimea as a constituent part of Ukraine.

It was not just one man who made the decision.
The Presidium of the Supreme Soviet of the USSR consisted of a chairman, a first vice-chairman (after 1977), his 15 deputies (one from each republic), a secretary, and 20 additional deputies from its two constituent chambers, for a total of 39.

 

[wannabejack]

Just a daily reminder that Crimea was Russian until the head of the Ukrainian Communist Party transferred it to Ukraine while he was head of the USSR.

Maybe it's time for russia to give Königsberg back to Germany.
"Yeah exactly. You don't even know who i'm talking about do you." (It's Kaliningrad)

 

[Smeg Head]

Maybe it's time for russia to give Königsberg back to Germany.
"Yeah exactly. You don't even know who i'm talking about do you." (It's Kaliningrad)

And the occupied Kurils

 

[Crankyhawk]

Crimea willingly ceded itself to Russia 300 years earlier, the opposite of what blackfellas did here, and some Ukrainian Communist Party dude undid that a few years before sending nukes to Cuba.

I'm not pointing this out cos I really care either, just that its interesting kind of irritating the way some people forget it while arguing the very opposite about other things and conflating Russia with the USSR as if they were the same thing and all the USSRs crimes (like ending feudalism and raising peasants out of abject poverty) or what have you were Russia's as well. Stalin was born in georgia. He wasn't Russian but i'll bet most of the clowns posting in this thread don't know that.

Putin is a campaigner but he's never hidden that or that he'll use the power available to him to achieve what he wants. People are judging him like he's a western leader who abides (lol or at least pretends to) by western values when he's constantly made it clear he doesn't give a rats about them. Meanwhile our leaders lie all the *en time and do what they can to get away with the sort of s**t Putin does. Putin isn't on my side. I don't expect anything from him other than he's a strong Russian leader and will behave like one. Strong Russian leaders had phrases like "the Terrible" attached to their names cos they were a pack of campaigners historically.

People have forgotten this and as a result cheer lead a bunch of offensive s**t that we (ie the west) are responsible for. The leaders who claim to be on my side (supposedly).

We're (collectively us in the West) sposed to have standards, they don't and i don't think we've lived up to them at all in the last 20 years regarding Ukraine yet anyone who expresses this on this thread gets called racist names.

WTF is going on here?

(BTW Cranky I know you use the term orc, I've heard your reasons and that's your choice, most of what you post is cool so i'm not condemning you for that choice but i've not seen you use them against other posters here simply to ignore what they're saying the way some other posters do.)

The crimea issue is complicated in that when Ukraine became a country crimea was agreed by all parties to be part of Ukraine though. So my no backsies statement still applies and certainly to my view conquest is no longer an acceptable reason for regimes change or border change. When have modern western leaders invaded for territorial expansion? Regime change yes but we have also learned that it doesn’t work.

If you did care to check back through my earlier posts though I do have equipoise about where crimea does end up and would not bleat too much if crimea returned to Russia as part of a permanent peace (Ukraine joins nato and Russia pays financial reparations for damage caused and cost of clearing minefields - or can clear by force marching wagnerites through the fields whatever

 

[Rayzorwire]

Probably agreeing with you here. I think the 2014 events and the 2022 events are very different from a local's perspective - if I was a Ukrainian in Ukraine I'd find the activities in 2022 much more threatening than those in 2014 (unless if I was in Luhansk).

Thanks, very informative post, sorry I didn't get a chance to get back to it yesterday.

Yes, you do get the sense that with Ukraine being so huge, for most of the country the Donbass conflict was far away compared to what has happened since 2022.

I never really could get a clear perspective on how a majority of Ukrainian people thought the pre-2022 conflict should be ended and how that varied in the different regions. I do sometimes wonder if the only long-term solution Ukraine would have accepted was the entire Donbass returned to Ukraine and Russia accepting a large portion of the population from there into the Federation.

Even then, it's hard to see how Ukraine could trust even the small remaining civilian population after such a resolution. Wouldn't there still be endless claims of Russia interfering (which they no doubt would)?

I guess I never really saw a way to restore good relations after 2014 and without that, the border would always be a war-zone waiting to kick off again.

And Zelenskyy I guess just does what he does - he's a politician now. But he's knocked shoulders with the western world much more, got piping hot writers who come up with stuff like "i don't need a ride, i need ammunition". And he's seen visiting the frontline. And I think Ukraine under his leadership have been stronger this time around. Prominently, the world has noticed the conflict much more after 2022, and Ukrainians probably feel a little more secure because of western support (regardless argument about reasons, sufficiency etc). Ukrainians are more nationalist now (meaning pro-sovereignty, not meaning fascist), and I think any leader who was saying what Zelenskyy is saying, would get the same generally high support.

Thanks - and yes, I agree, Ukrainian voters have made it clear that while they're voting for parties with distinctly nationalistic policies, the portion of the vote which Svoboda etc. get is comparatively tiny.

Re his own graft and corruption, I think it seems (at least on the surface) dealt with. Nobody seems to be saying "and he's STILL doing it, the hypocrite". But I dunno - he's a politician after all.

And come on, the guy is a ******* meme of alpha these days. This for example, on his sleeve:
View attachment 1890058
One way or another, he's made himself into something cool and respectable.

I doubt many other people could have achieved what he has managed.

There has been a ton of stories about petty level corruption within Ukraine during the war - like a lot of first-hand things reported I just take each one with a grain of salt and see what comes out further down the track. Certainly haven't heard much at all about Zelensky personally, more attempts to focus on his past, even from well before he became a politician.

From the perspective of the poor blokes doing the fighting, I was troubled to read in the BBC article from the other week that even front line troops seem to be buying part of their own gear in order to survive, which makes me wonder if down the track we might be reading about a bunch of people getting rich by redirecting supplies which were intended for the men fighting.

As I say, no firm evidence either way, but worrying for the sake of the men's survival and if there are people who have profited like that, I hope they get what they deserve.

Conscription / mobilisation will be a test tho. There's no way to make that palatable to everyone, and yet it's probably a necessity.

Definitely does seem like a necessity.

Russia has been harping on a lot about Ukraine conscripting all the Ukrainian citizens with non-Ukrainian ancestry first and sending them to the worst parts of the front, do you reckon there's anything to their claims? I mainly ask because, if so, that's the sort of word-of-mouth, spreads like wildfire, only needs a few examples type of report that could definitely make Ukraine's neighbours less supportive as things get harder.

I never really saw the sense in sending men who really don't want to fight to the front line, so I was naturally skeptical about their claims, but the realities of manpower the mobilisation lays bare has me wondering all over again.

In all honesty, I'm pretty hung up on a personal level with the mobilisation legislation that things have got to a point they felt they had to include 'mildly disabled' people.

If you or anyone else have any info on what exactly 'mildly disabled' is going to mean, I'd really appreciate knowing more - can't find anything in English.

 

[Rayzorwire]

For those who insist NATO had no intention of trying to use Ukraine for the sake of weakening/balkanising Russia/causing regime change, what do they make of Democrat Adam Schiff saying this - from all the way back in 2019?




Hard not to call this 'America's proxy war' when they themselves once happily insisted it was?

Interesting source too...




...but of course, that's how many in the 'Global South' feel.

 

[BlueE]

The politico article, as I see it, discusses "Zelenskyy’s support weakening, a deadlock on the front, a rapidly depleting supply of munitions, some erosion of support from Europe, and an impasse in the U.S. Congress over a bill to provide for the military needs of both Ukraine and Israel. His star power notwithstanding, Zelenskyy faces new difficulties in maintaining high levels of military and financial support for Ukraine both in North America and in Europe."
So the article is about Ukraine's (Zelenskyy's) situation as of DECEMBER 18, 2023

It doesn't discuss what Sach pushes

• the US attempt to expand NATO to Georgia and Ukraine triggered the wars in Georgia (in 2010) and in Ukraine.
• he repeatedly emphasizes that the expansion of NATO provoked Russia (e.g., “NATO should not enlarge, because that threatens the security of Russia).
• Crimea is effectively or at least de facto Russian.”
• Ukraine to be a neutral non-NATO country

This guy echoes Russian propaganda.

Maybe I'm missing something but I can't see anything in that article agreeing with Sach.

LOL. Anyone who diverges from your narrow view is echoing Russian propaganda.

Sachs has been interviewed many times and expressed the same views as the Politico article in them. The unusual part of the Politico article, is that they are daring to express views that have got reporters disappeared or locked up in Ukraine a few months ago.

As a former Special Advisor to the UN Secretary General for over17 years Sachs is a moderate, experienced diplomat and academic, focused on peace.

 

[ferball]

Maybe it's time for russia to give Königsberg back to Germany.
"Yeah exactly. You don't even know who i'm talking about do you." (It's Kaliningrad)

That was territory lost in a war, not a political deal to secure your leadership of the USSR and the backing of your Party Soviet or whatever it was.

Anything the Germans lost in ww2 is tough shit.

If they weren't a pack of Nazi campaigners who tried to take over the world they'd still have it.

In September 1991, the Crimean parliament declared state sovereignty for Crimea as a constituent part of Ukraine.

In 1945 a Georgian ordered the deportation of Tartars from Crimea to Siberia and the destruction of the Autonomous Soviet of Crimea. Then they were replaced with Ukrainians, Russians and other people from further West. Krushev finished that ethnic cleansing with the transfer of the territory to Ukraine. Fast forward to 1992 and Crimean Parliament declared independence. Eight days later the ukrainian parliament gave them a one week ultimatum to back down which they did.

So what you and all the other "Give Crimea back to the Ukrainains" people are really saying is that you support the ongoing occupation of Crimea by Ukraine over the occupation of Crimea by Russia.

Hypocrite much?

It was not just one man who made the decision.
The Presidium of the Supreme Soviet of the USSR consisted of a chairman, a first vice-chairman (after 1977), his 15 deputies (one from each republic), a secretary, and 20 additional deputies from its two constituent chambers, for a total of 39.

Krushev was responsible for Crimea being transferred to Ukraine and he did it to secure his leadership of the USSR with the support of his party - the Ukrainian Communist Party. If any of those people you mentioned objected they'd be shot in some shithole in Siberia.