Europe War in Ukraine - Thread 4 - thread rules updated

[Gethelred]

This is the thread for discussing the War in Ukraine. Should you want to discuss the geopolitics, the history, or an interesting tangent, head over here:

Europe - Backdrop to the war in Ukraine

This is the thread for the geopolitics, history and framework around the Russia-Ukraine conflict. If you want to discuss the events of the war, head over to this thread: https://www.bigfooty.com/forum/threads/war-in-ukraine-thread-4-thread-rules-updated.1376293/page-146

www.bigfooty.com

If a post isn't directly concerning the events of the war or starts to derail the thread, report the post to us and we'll move it over there.

Seeing as multiple people seem to have forgotten, abuse is against the rules of BF. Continuous, page long attacks directed at a single poster in this thread will result in threadbans for a week from this point; doing so again once you have returned will make the bans permanent and will be escalated to infractions.

This thread still has misinformation rules, and occasionally you will be asked to demonstrate a claim you have made by moderation. If you cannot, you will be offered the opportunity to amend the post to reflect that it's opinion, to remove the post, or you will be threadbanned and infracted for sharing misinformation.

Addendum: from this point, use of any variant of the word 'orc' to describe combatants, politicians or russians in general will be deleted and the poster will receive a warning. If the behaviour continues, it will be escalated. Consider this fair warning.

Finally: If I see the word Nazi or Hitler being flung around, there had better have a good faith basis as to how it's applicable to the Russian invasion - as in, video/photographic evidence of POW camps designed to remove another ethnic group - or to the current Ukrainian army. If this does not occur, you will be threadbanned for posting off topic

This is a sensitive area, and I understand that this makes for fairly incensed conversation sometimes. This does not mean the rules do not apply, whether to a poster positing a Pro-Ukraine stance or a poster positing an alternative view.

Behave, people.

 

[sdfc]

The civilians who died while they quite deliberately bombed civilian infrastructure in Serbia may well disagree.

'Accidentally' bombing the Chinese embassy, wiping out TV stations etc.

United States bombing of the Chinese embassy in Belgrade - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Just the start of numerous episodes of NATO offensive interference into the governance of other countries, culminating most recently in Gaddafi - a man Nelson Mandela regarded as one of his dearest friends and a pan-African humanitarian - dying with a bayonet stuck in the last place you'd ever want one, then Libya being on fire ever since.

Clinton on Qaddafi: "We came, we saw, he died"

Secretary of State Hillary Clinton jokes with reporter after hearing initial, unconfirmed, reports of Muammar Qaddafi's death

www.cbsnews.com

Funny stuff from this renowned 'left-wing' humanitarian...meanwhile, Nelson Mandela rolls in his grave.

Bravo, NATO?

For all their totally off their own continent, regime change disasters?

Knocking off (or just trying really hard to) leaders on other continents is solely about European 'defence?'

'Peace?'

It's great for the MIC. New countries to arm. What's the problem?

 

[Zidane98]

The civilians who died while they quite deliberately bombed civilian infrastructure in Serbia may well disagree.

'Accidentally' bombing the Chinese embassy, wiping out TV stations etc.

United States bombing of the Chinese embassy in Belgrade - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Just the start of numerous episodes of NATO offensive interference into the governance of other countries, culminating most recently in Gaddafi - a man Nelson Mandela regarded as one of his dearest friends and a pan-African humanitarian - dying with a bayonet stuck in the last place you'd ever want one, then Libya being on fire ever since.

Clinton on Qaddafi: "We came, we saw, he died"

Secretary of State Hillary Clinton jokes with reporter after hearing initial, unconfirmed, reports of Muammar Qaddafi's death

www.cbsnews.com

Funny stuff from this renowned 'left-wing' humanitarian...meanwhile, Nelson Mandela rolls in his grave.

Bravo, NATO?

For all their totally off their own continent, regime change disasters?

Knocking off (or just trying really hard to) leaders on other continents is solely about European 'defence?'

'Peace?'

Bingo tovarisch. Knew you'd come up with this response like the good tankie you are.

I have some news for you Vladimir

Security Council Approves ‘No-Fly Zone’ over Libya, Authorizing ‘All Necessary Measures’ to Protect Civilians, by Vote of 10 in Favour with 5 Abstentions | Meetings Coverage and Press Releases

Demanding an immediate ceasefire in Libya, including an end to the current attacks against civilians, which it said might constitute “crimes against humanity”, the Security Council this evening imposed a ban on all flights in the country’s airspace — a no-fly zone — and tightened sanctions on...

press.un.org

Russia did not veto this action.


As for Sebia - the genocide campaign initiated by Serbia was ceased pretty quickly after the NATO bombing campaign saving hundreds of thousands of lives.

But I can see why Putin would not want that sort of behaviour being stopped in Ukraine so I understand his concerns.

 

[Zidane98]

Its 33% further in distance.



Not now it isn't, can you confidently say that'll be the case in a decade. The US has never been so unstable or divided, ever since Obama, who was basically a black George Bush in terms of foreign policy and support for wall St.

The US is not firing a nuke at any country. It's a ridiculous claim and you know it.

 

[Zidane98]

If Russian people were truly worried about nukes they would not be supporting Putin & co who regularly make nuclear threats to the point where everyone just rolls their eyes at them these days.

 

[Zidane98]

Also if nukes are a true concern for Russian people China with nukes right on Russia's border would be considered a massive threat.

 

[Rayzorwire]

Bingo tovarisch. Knew you'd come up with this response like the good tankie you are.

Feeling the love!

I have some news for you Vladimir

Security Council Approves ‘No-Fly Zone’ over Libya, Authorizing ‘All Necessary Measures’ to Protect Civilians, by Vote of 10 in Favour with 5 Abstentions | Meetings Coverage and Press Releases

Demanding an immediate ceasefire in Libya, including an end to the current attacks against civilians, which it said might constitute “crimes against humanity”, the Security Council this evening imposed a ban on all flights in the country’s airspace — a no-fly zone — and tightened sanctions on...

press.un.org

Russia did not veto this action.

They did explain their reasoning, seems pretty sound (while entirely in their own self-interest) to me:

Russia’s main state-owned television station aired a critical report describing the military campaign as “aggression by the great world powers against a sovereign country.” The Ministry of Foreign Affairs stated that “our position on this matter is well-known—we are for the inadmissibility of force both in Libya and in other countries, and for the situation’s return to the political level.”

Yet Russia abstained from the United Nations Security Council vote on Resolution 1973 authorizing intervention for humanitarian purposes in Libya. This was a critical move that gave international legal legitimacy to the military action. Russia would never have delivered such an abstention prior to the “reset.”

But the negative talk behind this positive policy decision stems from concrete Russian concerns the United States should keep in mind when framing policy. This will help the United States find ways of working with Moscow on Libya and the upheavals throughout the broader region.

President Dmitri Medvedev explained that Russia did not use its veto power to strike down Resolution 1973 “for the simple reason that [he does] not consider the resolution in question wrong.” Rather the resolution “reflects [Russia’s] understanding of events in Libya too, but not completely.”

This “not completely” is code for three issues: concern for Russian economic interests in Libya, fear of the implication Middle East unrest will have for the Russian North Caucasus, and worries about the unclear line between humanitarian intervention and regime change.

First, Russia’s significant commercial interests in Libya range from oil-and-gas contracts to railway construction. No one wants instability where they have economic interests at stake, and Russia is no exception. International military intervention clearly puts these interests at risk.

Second, there is the issue of potential impact on instability in the North Caucasus region in the southwest of Russia that includes Chechnya. Speaking in the North Caucasus in February, President Medvedev warned that the situation in the Middle East could cause some “densely populated states” to “split into small pieces” and lead to the “further spread of [Islamic] extremism.”

This seems a thinly veiled reference to the increasingly volatile situation spreading through the predominately Muslim North Caucasus region. Foreign Minister Sergey Lavrov stated things more bluntly in early March, saying that “the more the Middle East becomes unstable, the higher is the risk of people with malicious intentions causing us trouble…regardless of who comes to power in these countries, even if they will not be radical Islamists, still, the situation will be destabilized, creating some sort of a ‘Brownian motion.’”

The thinking is that the popular unrest in the Middle East will exacerbate the existing unrest in the North Caucasus, whose populations have grievances similar to those voiced by populations in the Middle East.

Lastly is the lack of clarity about the West’s reasons for military action in Libya. The Security Council resolution authorizes military intervention exclusively for humanitarian purposes. Yet President Barack Obama has said that Moammar Qaddafi is a leader who has lost legitimacy and must go.

Understanding the Russian Response to the Intervention in Libya

Hannah VanHoose deciphers the contradiction between Moscow’s statements and actions regarding military intervention in Libya and what they mean for U.S.-Russia relations.

www.americanprogress.org

 

[Rayzorwire]

It's great for the MIC. New countries to arm. What's the problem?

Indeed.

 

[CD Xbow]

Nice to see the Russians getting hacked for a change.

Ukraine's 'Blackjack' hackers breached 500 Russian military sites and caused chaos, says military intelligence

"Blackjack," a Ukrainian hacking group linked to the country's Security Service, mined data on top Russian military sites, military intelligence said.

www.businessinsider.com

This thread seems to be getting a miles off track. If posters want to discuss the history of US-Russian relations they can set up their own thread to continue it. This thread is about the Russian invasion of Ukraine and should be limited to this.

 

[Mobbs]

So much gallop to get through.

... when you only use the most biased Ukrainian media available.

Which do you claim is the most biased Ukrainian media available? Insider? Mediazona? Novaya Gazeta? Dozhd? ASTRA? DOXA? OVD Info?
If you want biased Ukrainian media, KyivPost is very one-sided and Kuleba is a beast at ruffling western feathers by saying things just the right way. Some UKR TG channels are clearly pro-Ukraine (some are run by battalions of their military) so I'll quote the information with caveats if unsure of veracity. Russian milbloggers are a great source of real info, but they can be wrong, too.

You're applauding the closure of churches by Zelenskyy, calling it "phantonism" when the Eastern Orthodox Church is one of the oldest and most sacred in Ukraine, existed for centuries and now banned. Because you say, they (and the three TV stations) were Russian plants. This is the second largest Christian church with 220 million baptised followers world wide. They had Russian affiliations but how many hundreds of years do you have to exist in Ukraine to be Ukrainian?

Yes. Glad you understand. Installed bastions of the enemy need to be eradicated. Difficult to question.

Now, not only did Zelensky do all this after Russia invaded -- he did it before, the 2021 report from the State Department showed that -- he also, in 2021, a year before Russia invaded, shut down three opposition television stations. Imagine if Putin did that.

Do you have a time machine? How can Zelenskyy do this BEFORE Russia invaded ... in 2021? Remember 2022 is just a new wave.

Imagine if Putin did that.

You repeated it again! Dozhd. Echo. Novaya Gazeta. Mediazone/Medusa. Memorial. Vesna. Almost every opposing politcal party, ever. Countless additional Russian media services (basically anything not toeing a United Russia line). Muratov got zelyonka'd (though I think the colour was different so maybe siniy'd in this case). Makarevich of Mashina Vremeni performed for displaced children in the Donbas and was then called a traitor. Putin has made any dissenting or even questioning media illegal in Russia. Have you heard of the term 'foreign agent'? Imagine if Putin did that!

I actually can not believe you have written and believe this! "the oldest and boldest lies - that Stepan Bandera was a nazi or colluded." This is on the same level as being a holocoust denier and shows how far gone you and your like minded are in here.

But we know its not true, no matter how much propaganda claims the opposite. There was collaboration with the nazi regime but not from Bandera - Galicia is a good starting point. Bandera was in a nazi camp at the time. There were indeed Ukrainian atrocities committed against Polish people, again we're still waiting for how to attach Bandera to it. Useful idiots continue to use the photo of Gehlen standing with other nazis, pretending that Gehlen is Bandera. You CAN make this stuff up, but I dunno how you can still point at it after its proven to be a lie.

... main reason for the essay was to show manufactured media consent ...

Don't disagree. But I think you're talking about western media which I have less experience with. Most institutionalised media is subject to taint, most independent media is subject to personal bias.

As Orwell ...

Can you explain what the comparisons are with 1984 instead of just quoting the premise? Getting an Orwell version of Godwin's Law vibe here. Orwell wrote extensively about the system lying to the proles and the fearmongering and threats based around anyone ever trying to ark up against the system. Everybody in Russia who has spoken up against Russia's imperialistic invasion, is now in jail. Everyone from major political figures like Kara-Murza to simple protesters like Skochilenko. So the 1984 references describe the RF quite well, which is why Russian protesters tried to hand the book out, and got arrested for it.

{Something about Iran and Iraq and Libya}

Sounds like an American political talking point to me. Ukraine went through what's now Bulgaria like a bad curry once many 100s of years ago, but where's the relevance? Have your American political talking points sure but I dunno the relevance to the thread about Russia invading Ukraine.

There's another thread around here about the "Backdrop to the war in Ukraine" which this is probably more relevant to. I'm more about wanting Ukrainian people to stop being massacred by a Russian nation (and Russian people being hurt by the same thing). Claiming that Russia are not capable of deciding to launch an invasion - or that Ukraine are not capable of deciding to resist one - and that its all the result of western scheming ... well that's just an insult to both.

 

[Visions]

Is this a record highest number of vatniks at once?

Our equivalent of Geroman, Zoka and Trollstoy. Just need Simp to join the flock now to collect the quaddie.

 

[ferball]

*wits is a good description. Let's have a confrontation between nuclear powers. Great idea.

Unfortunately its bound to happen sooner or later. I'm moving to Tassie in 10 days so i hope it doesn't start before then.

I don't really care for either side in this conflict, or most of the simplistic analysis and cheer leading in this thread. One branch of my family left that part of Europe over 150 years ago to get away from the anti Roma pogroms. But i've followed Ukraine as a place since the Orange revolution (and got more cynical about colour revolutions over that time.)

Its a complicated mess and no one is innocent but if you think the US hasn't been spooking away in the background for decades you're deluded or a cheerleader. (Not specifically you sdfc btw)

 

[ferball]

The US is not firing a nuke at any country. It's a ridiculous claim and you know it.

They're the only country in the world to have done it and they did so specifically to send a message to the USSR.

 

[Rayzorwire]

US General Wesley Clark explains very clearly how all these NATO 'mission creep' adventures were down to a handful of insane weeks when these sociopaths...

...were running the world.

In that time they went from deciding to invade Afghanistan, to adding another half a dozen countries to their 'hit-list.'

The only one of those half dozen countries they haven't utterly ruined is Iran - and only then because they know Iran can shut down the Strait of Hormuz and collapse the global economy using the same kind of minimal effort the Houthi's are doing in the Red Sea.





Fit what Gen Clark is saying with what NATO's been up to over the same two decades and join the dots.

 

[Nothing]

So much gallop to get through.


Which do you claim is the most biased Ukrainian media available? Insider? Mediazona? Novaya Gazeta? Dozhd? ASTRA? DOXA? OVD Info?
If you want biased Ukrainian media, KyivPost is very one-sided and Kuleba is a beast at ruffling western feathers by saying things just the right way. Some UKR TG channels are clearly pro-Ukraine (some are run by battalions of their military) so I'll quote the information with caveats if unsure of veracity. Russian milbloggers are a great source of real info, but they can be wrong, too.


Yes. Glad you understand. Installed bastions of the enemy need to be eradicated. Difficult to question.


Do you have a time machine? How can Zelenskyy do this BEFORE Russia invaded ... in 2021? Remember 2022 is just a new wave.


You repeated it again! Dozhd. Echo. Novaya Gazeta. Mediazone/Medusa. Memorial. Vesna. Almost every opposing politcal party, ever. Countless additional Russian media services (basically anything not toeing a United Russia line). Muratov got zelyonka'd (though I think the colour was different so maybe siniy'd in this case). Makarevich of Mashina Vremeni performed for displaced children in the Donbas and was then called a traitor. Putin has made any dissenting or even questioning media illegal in Russia. Have you heard of the term 'foreign agent'? Imagine if Putin did that!


But we know its not true, no matter how much propaganda claims the opposite. There was collaboration with the nazi regime but not from Bandera - Galicia is a good starting point. Bandera was in a nazi camp at the time. There were indeed Ukrainian atrocities committed against Polish people, again we're still waiting for how to attach Bandera to it. Useful idiots continue to use the photo of Gehlen standing with other nazis, pretending that Gehlen is Bandera. You CAN make this stuff up, but I dunno how you can still point at it after its proven to be a lie.


Don't disagree. But I think you're talking about western media which I have less experience with. Most institutionalised media is subject to taint, most independent media is subject to personal bias.


Can you explain what the comparisons are with 1984 instead of just quoting the premise? Getting an Orwell version of Godwin's Law vibe here. Orwell wrote extensively about the system lying to the proles and the fearmongering and threats based around anyone ever trying to ark up against the system. Everybody in Russia who has spoken up against Russia's imperialistic invasion, is now in jail. Everyone from major political figures like Kara-Murza to simple protesters like Skochilenko. So the 1984 references describe the RF quite well, which is why Russian protesters tried to hand the book out, and got arrested for it.


Sounds like an American political talking point to me. Ukraine went through what's now Bulgaria like a bad curry once many 100s of years ago, but where's the relevance? Have your American political talking points sure but I dunno the relevance to the thread about Russia invading Ukraine.

There's another thread around here about the "Backdrop to the war in Ukraine" which this is probably more relevant to. I'm more about wanting Ukrainian people to stop being massacred by a Russian nation (and Russian people being hurt by the same thing). Claiming that Russia are not capable of deciding to launch an invasion - or that Ukraine are not capable of deciding to resist one - and that its all the result of western scheming ... well that's just an insult to both.

I haven't posted much recently but please post more. You're the reason I read this thread.

 

[Zidane98]

They're the only country in the world to have done it and they did so specifically to send a message to the USSR.

There was no other nukes at the time and empirical Japan was not stopping killing millions.

They wouldn't have fired one if Japan had one.

 

[Zidane98]

I haven't posted much recently but please post more. You're the reason I read this thread.

Second this.

Mobbs delivers.

 

[sdfc]

Unfortunately its bound to happen sooner or later. I'm moving to Tassie in 10 days so i hope it doesn't start before then.

I don't really care for either side in this conflict, or most of the simplistic analysis and cheer leading in this thread. One branch of my family left that part of Europe over 150 years ago to get away from the anti Roma pogroms. But i've followed Ukraine as a place since the Orange revolution (and got more cynical about colour revolutions over that time.)

Its a complicated mess and no one is innocent but if you think the US hasn't been spooking away in the background for decades you're deluded or a cheerleader. (Not specifically you sdfc btw)

I just want peace. I don't think it will be achieved by Ukraine rolling back the Russians so diplomacy seems the best way to bring it to an end.

I reckon a nuclear confrontation is unlikely but I'd prefer it was off the table, History is littered with bad decisions.

 

[Mobbs]

View attachment 1890009

I learnt an interesting tidbit the other day! it's not an argument, it's just trivia.

The term "ruble" (Russia) is actually derived from pieces of "hrvnia" (Ukraine). The word ruble comes from "cut" and referred to a monetary unit which came from cutting hrvnia into pieces.

Just an oddity. Saw it mentioned, went googling and confirmed it. Mentioned it to a Ukrainian friend and she said she didn't know this either!

Which makes me wonder where the hell kopecks came from! Kopecks these days are about 100th of a ruble (or hrvnia for that matter).

(and don't get me started on the Beard Tax!)

 

[Rayzorwire]

I'm more about wanting Ukrainian people to stop being massacred by a Russian nation (and Russian people being hurt by the same thing).

So well said.

Claiming that Russia are not capable of deciding to launch an invasion - or that Ukraine are not capable of deciding to resist one - and that its all the result of western scheming ... well that's just an insult to both.

Feel free to ignore if you don't have time, Mobbs, but I'd be really interested to hear your opinion on the discrepancy between Zelensky's really bad approval ratings in the months leading up to 2022, versus how very strongly united Ukranian people have been behind him after war broke out.

Would this be because his ratings had little to do with a failure to bring peace in Donbass (a core election promise), more to do with perhaps not getting far tackling corruption (the other core election promise), the Panama Papers stuff on a personal level, or a range of other unrelated domestic factors which when combined added up to something significant?

My read is that if his ratings were about Donbass, more people would have blamed him for not resolving things and perhaps even for letting it grow into a wider conflict.

As someone who has seen how fractured and complex Ukranian politics can get, I've been fairly surprised that no other political or military factions have emerged through the war, not even vague rumours of them.

And fair enough, I know there's a case to say Zelensky's cracked down really hard on opposition, but still, to me it seems more about the Ukranian people seeing a lot more in him as a leader than they did pre-war.

Fair assessment?

 

[Mobbs]

So well said.




Feel free to ignore if you don't have time, Mobbs, but I'd be really interested to hear your opinion on the discrepancy between Zelensky's really bad approval ratings in the months leading up to 2022, versus how very strongly united Ukranian people have been behind him after war broke out.

Would this be because his ratings had little to do with a failure to bring peace in Donbass (a core election promise), more to do with perhaps not getting far tackling corruption (the other core election promise), the Panama Papers stuff on a personal level, or a range of other unrelated domestic factors which when combined added up to something significant?

My read is that if his ratings were about Donbass, more people would have blamed him for not resolving things and perhaps even for letting it grow into a wider conflict.

As someone who has seen how fractured and complex Ukranian politics can get, I've been fairly surprised that no other political or military factions have emerged through the war, not even vague rumours of them.

And fair enough, I know there's a case to say Zelensky's cracked down really hard on opposition, but still, to me it seems more about the Ukranian people seeing a lot more in him as a leader than they did pre-war.

Fair assessment?

Probably agreeing with you here. I think the 2014 events and the 2022 events are very different from a local's perspective - if I was a Ukrainian in Ukraine I'd find the activities in 2022 much more threatening than those in 2014 (unless if I was in Luhansk). And Zelenskyy I guess just does what he does - he's a politician now. But he's knocked shoulders with the western world much more, got piping hot writers who come up with stuff like "i don't need a ride, i need ammunition". And he's seen visiting the frontline. And I think Ukraine under his leadership have been stronger this time around. Prominently, the world has noticed the conflict much more after 2022, and Ukrainians probably feel a little more secure because of western support (regardless argument about reasons, sufficiency etc). Ukrainians are more nationalist now (meaning pro-sovereignty, not meaning fascist), and I think any leader who was saying what Zelenskyy is saying, would get the same generally high support.

Re his own graft and corruption, I think it seems (at least on the surface) dealt with. Nobody seems to be saying "and he's STILL doing it, the hypocrite". But I dunno - he's a politician after all.

And come on, the guy is a ****ing meme of alpha these days. This for example, on his sleeve:

One way or another, he's made himself into something cool and respectable.

Conscription / mobilisation will be a test tho. There's no way to make that palatable to everyone, and yet it's probably a necessity.

 

[Mobbs]

Yesterday was the day in Russia where memory of those activists / human rights defenders , assassinated by the state , are observed.

In memory of lawyer Stanislav Markelov and Novaya Gazeta journalist Anastasia Baburova, who died 15 years ago, flowers were also left at the eternal flame on the Champ de Mars. The activists, who wished to remain anonymous, laid out the names of the victims of the neo-Nazi in candy.



Markelov was a human rights lawyer who was assassinated half a mile from the Kremlin in 2009. At the same time, Novaya Gazeta journalist Anastasia Buburov was also shot dead.

Markelov was known for defending those persecuted politically and also for activism on behalf of people affected by terrorist attacks. He had defended Anna Politkovskaya - a journalist on the Chechen war, and who was also gunned down a few years prior to the death of Markelov.

Reported by MR7 Telegram [post 1] [post 2] Photo is from the 2nd link.

 

[Mobbs]

There's been so much reporting on the Bashkortostan crisis that I don't know where to start. Fail Alsyonov's arrest has led to demonstrations throughout the region, reaching the major population centre of Ufa. I've just extracted one, it's fairly generic to all reporting at this time.

In Ufa, at a rally in support of activist and one of the leaders of the nationalist organization “Kuk Bure” Fail Alsynov, sentenced to 4 years in prison, arrests began .

As our correspondent reports from the scene, the police tried to detain a girl who was wearing a “Kara Halyk”* poster on her back (in the video she is wearing a pink jacket), but the crowd of those gathered managed to win back the girl. The security forces, however, detained another person.

* Kara halyk - Turkic, literal meaning - black people. This is how the population of lands feudally dependent on the Golden Horde was called in the Turkic language. It was for using this phrase during a speech at a citizens’ gathering in April 2023 that Fail Alsynov was sentenced to four years in prison under the article of inciting hatred or enmity. At the same time, he himself claims that he did not mean “black people”, but “ordinary people”; both the defense and the activist’s support group insist that his words were incorrectly translated.

According to RTVI, the exact phrase uttered by Alsynov, translated, sounded like this: “Armenians will go to their homeland, Kara Halyk - to themselves, Russians - to their Ryazan, Tatars - to their Tatarstan. We won’t be able to move, we don’t have another home, our home is here!” In the same speech, Alsynov also spoke about the war in Ukraine and the centuries-old oppression of the Bashkir people.

[SOTA Project TG]

 

[Baldur]

I just want peace. I don't think it will be achieved by Ukraine rolling back the Russians so diplomacy seems the best way to bring it to an end.

I reckon a nuclear confrontation is unlikely but I'd prefer it was off the table, History is littered with bad decisions.

Appeasement - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Cuban Missile Crisis - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

France and Britian were desperate to avoid another world war, but by their policy of making diplomatic concessions in fact made war certain. I regard this war as this era's Abyssinia crisis. Zelenskyy might as well say "today it is us, tomorrow it will be you".

Should we be so silly as to attempt to appease Putin, we will only confirm in his and Xi Jinping’s minds that they can get away with whatever they wish. The result, they keep pushing and making nuclear threats, sure in their belief that the west will always in the end buckle. Until there is a miscalculation, a red line ignored that was not an Obama bluff. The last time this happened was in Oct 1962.

History is indeed littered with bad decisions and allowing Russia to gain any sort of victory would be one of the worst. But of course fools will still cry out demanding “Peace for our time”.

 

[Mobbs]

And wives/mothers of those mobilised held protests in SPb and Msk:

В Петербурге и Москве прошли акции жен и матерей мобилизованных

В Москве и Петербурге прошли акции жен и матерей мобилизованных. Они требуют от Владимира Путина подписать указ о демобилизации своих мужей и верну...

nsvvhrmr---ei3mgr4e-bsccljbcrq-ez.a.run.app

Protests by the wives and mothers of those mobilized took place in Moscow and St. Petersburg. They demand that Vladimir Putin sign a decree on the demobilization of their husbands and return them from the territory of hostilities. During the action in St. Petersburg, women laid flowers at the eternal flame on the Champ de Mars, and in Moscow they went to Putin’s election headquarters, where they asked questions to the reception staff.

While covering the action, security forces checked the documents of four journalists:k. In the end, everyone was released. In addition, in Moscow, the action was attended by employees of the “E” center, as well as members of the pro-government organization “Volunteer Company,” which is associated with attacks on independent journalists and human rights activists.

 

[Aussie in exile]

Yep and honestly there are probably a couple sitting a few kms offshore of sebastapol rotating every couple of weeks. But no Russian leader is gonna let Ukraine join NATO if they don't want a bullet in the head.

Or fall out of a window or have a fatal car crash.
The problem Putin has is that he didn't think the West would respond they they did, but he cant back down now, and will continue to sent conscripts to the front line, but not any male members of his or Lavrov's family.