Europe War in Ukraine - Thread 4 - thread rules updated

[Gethelred]

This is the thread for discussing the War in Ukraine. Should you want to discuss the geopolitics, the history, or an interesting tangent, head over here:

Europe - Backdrop to the war in Ukraine

This is the thread for the geopolitics, history and framework around the Russia-Ukraine conflict. If you want to discuss the events of the war, head over to this thread: https://www.bigfooty.com/forum/threads/war-in-ukraine-thread-4-thread-rules-updated.1376293/page-146

www.bigfooty.com

If a post isn't directly concerning the events of the war or starts to derail the thread, report the post to us and we'll move it over there.

Seeing as multiple people seem to have forgotten, abuse is against the rules of BF. Continuous, page long attacks directed at a single poster in this thread will result in threadbans for a week from this point; doing so again once you have returned will make the bans permanent and will be escalated to infractions.

This thread still has misinformation rules, and occasionally you will be asked to demonstrate a claim you have made by moderation. If you cannot, you will be offered the opportunity to amend the post to reflect that it's opinion, to remove the post, or you will be threadbanned and infracted for sharing misinformation.

Addendum: from this point, use of any variant of the word 'orc' to describe combatants, politicians or russians in general will be deleted and the poster will receive a warning. If the behaviour continues, it will be escalated. Consider this fair warning.

Finally: If I see the word Nazi or Hitler being flung around, there had better have a good faith basis as to how it's applicable to the Russian invasion - as in, video/photographic evidence of POW camps designed to remove another ethnic group - or to the current Ukrainian army. If this does not occur, you will be threadbanned for posting off topic

This is a sensitive area, and I understand that this makes for fairly incensed conversation sometimes. This does not mean the rules do not apply, whether to a poster positing a Pro-Ukraine stance or a poster positing an alternative view.

Behave, people.

 

[ferball]

And the occupied Kurils

**** yeah. How dare those Russians chase the Japanese out of China and then claim Japanese territory after ww2. After all what did the Japanese do wrong?

Do you think Israel should return the Golan Heights?

 

[ferball]

The crimea issue is complicated in that when Ukraine became a country crimea was agreed by all parties to be part of Ukraine though. So my no backsies statement still applies and certainly to my view conquest is no longer an acceptable reason for regimes change or border change. When have modern western leaders invaded for territorial expansion? Regime change yes but we have also learned that it doesn’t work.

If you did care to check back through my earlier posts though I do have equipoise about where crimea does end up and would not bleat too much if crimea returned to Russia as part of a permanent peace (Ukraine joins nato and Russia pays financial reparations for damage caused and cost of clearing minefields - or can clear by force marching wagnerites through the fields whatever

Except Crimea, who voted for independence in 1992 and were threatened by Ukraine in response.

 

[BlueE]

I searched and found a post of yours, but no videos to see what he said in there and nothing that could qualify other than he was exercising his right for free speech and expressed opinions different to the official Ukrainian narrative codified in the dictatorial terms of "justifying Russian aggression against Ukraine"

I can't properly quote reply while out on a phone. BlueE you can read more on Gonzalo Lira by searching this thread we are in for his name.

On SM-A146P using BigFooty.com mobile app

The Center for Strategic Communication and Information Security explains why Gonzalo Lira was detained in Ukraine and why he will be tried.

Firstly, in Ukraine, even under martial law, freedom of speech is respected, and there is no and cannot be any criminal liability for criticizing the president. Therefore, the accusation that Lira or someone else was “jailed for criticizing Zelensky” is an outright manipulation.

Secondly, Gonzalo Lira is accused not of “criticizing Zelensky,” but of justifying Russian aggression against Ukraine (Article 436-2 of the Criminal Code of Ukraine). The investigation found that Lira:

● publicly justified the Russian invasion by claiming that a 'neo-Nazi regime' had allegedly been set up in Ukraine;

● denied the facts of Russian missile strikes on Ukrainian cities, massacres of civilian Ukrainians by Russian invaders in Bucha and other cities;

● in spring 2022, Lira personally filmed the Ukrainian military, tried to expose their faces, and insulted the soldiers. He published the video on YouTube, Telegram, and the-then Twitter.


I haven't found any videos of him committing the crimes he has been accused of and would like to listen to what he said.

However,

1. It was very clear in the screen shots I posted of a sample of 25 main stream media reports before Feb 2022, warning of the "Neo-Nazi threats in Ukraine was very real and part of the Orwellian effort of the media to "erase the past". The 7th Jan 2021 Time magazine article I also linked was a detailed warning of the dangers of Ukrainian Neo Nazi fighters and their influence world wide, including the perpetrator of the Christchurch mosque massacre who visited Ukraine to train with them.

2. Ukrainian missile hit Poland which, Zelensky immediately blamed Russia for and it is only with independent journalists that propaganda on both sides can be called out. Bucha needs to be properly investigated. The Mayor of Bucha made the first ideo statements the day after the Russians left and there were no dead bodies. Then the Botsman Boys arrived with video and texts, posted online showed Ukrainian citizens with white armbands dead. White meaning they've collaborated with Russian troops in some way, like swapping fresh food for rations.

3. Please post that.

He did detail how Ukrainian oligarch Ihor Kolomoisky owned Hunter Biden's Burisma, financed the political rise of Zelensky, and funded the Azov Battalion and Tucker Carlson says "Gonzalo Lira was an American citizen, but the Biden administration clearly supported his imprisonment and torture."



"Russia in not losing, it is winning the war."

"Russian economy is fine, but US is not"

Arrested and let out and tried to leave Ukraine over the Hungarian border to ask for political asylum, because he was scared of being sent to a prison camp where he most certainly will die. And he did.

 

[Smeg Head]

Independent organisations have investigated in Bucha and its your mate Putin and his facists that massacred people, what a pile of absolute cooker nonsense.

https://www.ohchr.org/en/press-releases/2022/12/un-report-details-summary-executions-civilians-russian-troops-northern

 

[BlueE]

I don't think you need to manufacture consent, if you or a democratic ally (even with some flaws) are the ones being invaded unprovoked by an authoritarian regime. You may need to show a war weary public what that regime is doing to remind them, especially as some without moral compasses are downplaying the clear distinction between the warring parties.

Greenwald, despite having been a principled journalist in days long past, fell victim to the simple-minded "America bad" view of foreign policy that some "on the left" can't escape (and I'm on the left), which then informs every perspective. He would have some insight into media propaganda true, but nowadays he's personally involved in it, rather than holding it to account consistently.

Greenwald himself predicted his future self in 2005:

"If "anti-American" means anything, I'd say it means an inclination to blame America for every world problem, and to vigilantly search for America's guilt while downplaying, ignoring, or excusing the guilt of its enemies."

"And therein lies the embodiment and definition of “anti-Americanism”: the parmaount [sic] desire to find fault and evil with the U.S. and thereby adopting that goal as the first and only real principle, from which everything else follows. That goal is then fulfilled by selectively and endlessly highlighting and exaggerating America’s faults and downplaying, ignoring and even defending far worse flaws in others. In its most virulent (and quite common) form, this extends to making common cause with the most abusive and genuinely evil regimes and movements around the world, whose only virtue –- the only one the European Left needs -- is that they are opposed by the U.S."

He was probably being kind to US Foreign Policy back then, but the sentiment remains true.

The true character of the European Left

My recent reference to Rep. Cynthia McKinney as a genuine “hater of America” sparked a dispute in my Comments section -- as well as on the...

glenngreenwald.blogspot.com

Greenwald is one of a few journalists that has kept his principles and resigned rather that write what owners of papers he was writing for wanted him to say if it was incorrect and with his background as a qualified lawyer and substantial experience, properly investigates information before printing.

If you still think this conflict was unprovoked, you are consumed by the propaganda and willfully ignored known facts.

Do you think the same with Palestine and Israel?

It's actually Greenwald who has a far better understanding of world politics and been at the cutting edge of many award winning reports. He has apologised for believing the Saddam Hussein lies of "weapons of mass destruction" and has called out propaganda and manufacturing media consent consistently.

That doesn't mean he's anti-American, despite being called a "Putin puppet", "traitor", or "Kremlin puppet" for questioning "unverified and subsequently debunked useful or pleasing information about the war."

There is no propaganda as potent or powerful as war propaganda. It seems that one must have lived through it at least once, as an engaged adult, to understand how it functions, how it manipulates and distorts, and how one can resist being consumed by it.​

War propaganda stimulates the most powerful aspects of our psyche, our subconscious, our instinctive drives. It causes us, by design, to abandon reason. It provokes a surge in tribalism, jingoism, moral righteousness and emotionalism: all powerful drives embedded through millennia of evolution.

The more unity that emerges in support of an overarching moral narrative, the more difficult it becomes for anyone to critically evaluate it. The more closed the propaganda system is — either because any dissent from it is excluded by brute censorship or so effectively demonized through accusations of treason and disloyalty — the more difficult it is for anyone, all of us, even to recognize one is in the middle of it.

When critical faculties are deliberately turned off based on a belief that absolute moral certainty has been attained, the parts of our brain armed with the capacity of reason are disabled. That is why the leading anti-Russia hawks such as former Obama Ambassador Michael McFaul and others are demanding that no “Putin propagandists” (meaning anyone who diverges from his views of the conflict) even be permitted a platform

 

[Chief]

Greenwald is one of a few journalists that has kept his principles

Oh come off it.

 

[ferball]

For those who insist NATO had no intention of trying to use Ukraine for the sake of weakening/balkanising Russia/causing regime change, what do they make of Democrat Adam Schiff saying this - from all the way back in 2019?




Hard not to call this 'America's proxy war' when they themselves once happily insisted it was?

Interesting source too...

View attachment 1890908


...but of course, that's how many in the 'Global South' feel.

This is a Rand Corp/reverse vampires briefing paper from 2019 about how the US can **** with Russia, commissioned by the US Army iirc. Page 96 Providing Lethal Aid to Ukraine fits is interesting given the war. This is a copy the table from pg 135

https://www.rand.org/content/dam/rand/pubs/research_reports/RR3000/RR3063/RAND_RR3063.pdf

Measure Benefits Costs and Risk Likelihood of Success
Provide lethal aid to Ukraine High High* Medium
Increase support to the Syrian rebels Medium High Low
Promote regime change in Belarus High High Low
Exploit tensions in the South Caucasus Low Medium Low
Reduce Russian influence in Central Asia Low Medium Low
Challenge Russian presence in Moldova Low Medium Low


Lucky for Ukraine that Russia had nothing to fear from the US.


* One of these risks was the chance of war according to the paper and if it came to war it would be costly.

 

[ferball]

Ha. I ****ed around for five minutes trying to make that table look neat and failed miserably.

 

[BlueE]

Independent organisations have investigated in Bucha and its your mate Putin and his facists that massacred people, what a pile of absolute cooker nonsense.

https://www.ohchr.org/en/press-releases/2022/12/un-report-details-summary-executions-civilians-russian-troops-northern

In the town of Bucha near Kyiv, which was under the control of Russian troops from 5 to 30 March, the Mission documented the killing of 73 civilians (54 men, 16 women, 2 boys and 1 girl) and is in the process of corroborating an additional 105 alleged killings.

Yes the Russians were there and left, when the Mayor of Bucha posted the first videos which did not have any dead bodies.

Then the Botsman Boys posted their videos and texts.

This needs to be properly investigated in a Court of Law with both sides presenting evidence.

 

[Crankyhawk]

Except Crimea, who voted for independence in 1992 and were threatened by Ukraine in response.

There is a limit to many fricking independent countries we have. And this was only 12 months after being agreeable to be part of Ukraine. I’d like to see the data on that poll as well (in terms of free and fair or was it a nebulous “independence “ without things like a budget/ structure/ viability)

 

[Crankyhawk]

This is a Rand Corp/reverse vampires briefing paper from 2019 about how the US can * with Russia, commissioned by the US Army iirc. Page 96 Providing Lethal Aid to Ukraine fits is interesting given the war. This is a copy the table from pg 135

https://www.rand.org/content/dam/rand/pubs/research_reports/RR3000/RR3063/RAND_RR3063.pdf

Measure Benefits Costs and Risk Likelihood of Success
Provide lethal aid to Ukraine High High* Medium
Increase support to the Syrian rebels Medium High Low
Promote regime change in Belarus High High Low
Exploit tensions in the South Caucasus Low Medium Low
Reduce Russian influence in Central Asia Low Medium Low
Challenge Russian presence in Moldova Low Medium Low


Lucky for Ukraine that Russia had nothing to fear from the US.


* One of these risks was the chance of war according to the paper and if it came to war it would be costly.

Oh, after Russia had already started to invade 5 years before?

 

[Mobbs]

I searched and found a post of yours, but no videos to see what he said in there and nothing that could qualify other than he was exercising his right for free speech and expressed opinions different to the official Ukrainian narrative codified in the dictatorial terms of "justifying Russian aggression against Ukraine"

The Center for Strategic Communication and Information Security explains why Gonzalo Lira was detained in Ukraine and why he will be tried.

Firstly, in Ukraine, even under martial law, freedom of speech is respected, and there is no and cannot be any criminal liability for criticizing the president. Therefore, the accusation that Lira or someone else was “jailed for criticizing Zelensky” is an outright manipulation.

Secondly, Gonzalo Lira is accused not of “criticizing Zelensky,” but of justifying Russian aggression against Ukraine (Article 436-2 of the Criminal Code of Ukraine). The investigation found that Lira:

● publicly justified the Russian invasion by claiming that a 'neo-Nazi regime' had allegedly been set up in Ukraine;

● denied the facts of Russian missile strikes on Ukrainian cities, massacres of civilian Ukrainians by Russian invaders in Bucha and other cities;

● in spring 2022, Lira personally filmed the Ukrainian military, tried to expose their faces, and insulted the soldiers. He published the video on YouTube, Telegram, and the-then Twitter.


I haven't found any videos of him committing the crimes he has been accused of and would like to listen to what he said.

However,

1. It was very clear in the screen shots I posted of a sample of 25 main stream media reports before Feb 2022, warning of the "Neo-Nazi threats in Ukraine was very real and part of the Orwellian effort of the media to "erase the past". The 7th Jan 2021 Time magazine article I also linked was a detailed warning of the dangers of Ukrainian Neo Nazi fighters and their influence world wide, including the perpetrator of the Christchurch mosque massacre who visited Ukraine to train with them.

2. Ukrainian missile hit Poland which, Zelensky immediately blamed Russia for and it is only with independent journalists that propaganda on both sides can be called out. Bucha needs to be properly investigated. The Mayor of Bucha made the first ideo statements the day after the Russians left and there were no dead bodies. Then the Botsman Boys arrived with video and texts, posted online showed Ukrainian citizens with white armbands dead. White meaning they've collaborated with Russian troops in some way, like swapping fresh food for rations.

3. Please post that.

He did detail how Ukrainian oligarch Ihor Kolomoisky owned Hunter Biden's Burisma, financed the political rise of Zelensky, and funded the Azov Battalion and Tucker Carlson says "Gonzalo Lira was an American citizen, but the Biden administration clearly supported his imprisonment and torture."



"Russia in not losing, it is winning the war."

"Russian economy is fine, but US is not"

Arrested and let out and tried to leave Ukraine over the Hungarian border to ask for political asylum, because he was scared of being sent to a prison camp where he most certainly will die. And he did.

Holy shit, did this guy just regurgitate Lavrovian Bucha equivocation ...

Well congratulations. Your attempts to derail the discussion with so many long-debunked claims that nobody can be arsed looking for the debunks in these threads to repost, has been effective. That Bucha one was a bit of a sharky tho, wasn't it? I'm not prepared to believe you could be literally that much of a murder-fan and hate-monger, so I'll put it down to just partisan barracking or contrarianism.

 

[Smeg Head]

Holy s**t, did this guy just regurgitate Lavrovian Bucha equivocation ...

Well congratulations. Your attempts to derail the discussion with so many long-debunked claims that nobody can be arsed looking for the debunks in these threads to repost, has been effective. That Bucha one was a bit of a sharky tho, wasn't it? I'm not prepared to believe you could be literally that much of a murder-fan and hate-monger, so I'll put it down to just partisan barracking or contrarianism.

Should just change that 'E' to a 'Z' to make it perfectly clear.

 

[Visions]

Ukrainian military deny role in deadly strike on market in Russian-occupied Donetsk - Euromaidan Press

28 people were killed and 30 more injured in a shelling attack on a market in Russian-occupied Donetsk, according to Moscow-installed authorities.

euromaidanpress.com

Yeah sure maybe the UAF did it, but considering the Russians track record in both lying their a$$es off and recent “friendly fire” incidents, the odds suggest this is an orc attack.

Trying to gain sympathy or as l read on another forum, scaring market owners who the other week complained to convicted criminal Pushilin about conditions in Donetsk.

 

[Baldur]

Holy s**t, did this guy just regurgitate Lavrovian Bucha equivocation ...

Well congratulations. Your attempts to derail the discussion with so many long-debunked claims that nobody can be arsed looking for the debunks in these threads to repost, has been effective. That Bucha one was a bit of a sharky tho, wasn't it? I'm not prepared to believe you could be literally that much of a murder-fan and hate-monger, so I'll put it down to just partisan barracking or contrarianism.

I have a saying "evil is as evil does", if somebody acts as a murder-fan & hate-monger, that is what they are. If somebody defends war crimes or trys to off load the proven guilt onto the innocent, than that is the kind of person they are.

 

[BlueE]

Holy s**t, did this guy just regurgitate Lavrovian Bucha equivocation ...

Well congratulations. Your attempts to derail the discussion with so many long-debunked claims that nobody can be arsed looking for the debunks in these threads to repost, has been effective. That Bucha one was a bit of a sharky tho, wasn't it? I'm not prepared to believe you could be literally that much of a murder-fan and hate-monger, so I'll put it down to just partisan barracking or contrarianism.

You are the person loudly proclaiming a not only debunked but disgraceful lie about Bandera, and are so biased that you ignore anything that doesn't support your view.

The Ministry of Foreign Affairs claimed in its Telegram statement that Russian forces pulled out of Bucha on March 30.



Ukrainian Territorial Defence forces "Botsman" boys entered Bucha on March 31st, posted on April 1 "Actually there is nothing to do there. Just mountains of burnt equipment and houses."

2nd April Ukraine army documented in video wrecked cars, broken tanks, destroyed buildings and disarray but no bodies.

The Ukrainian Territorial Defence "Botsman" boys and their leader Sergei Korotkikh are implicated in their own video they posted of them giving the green light to shoot anyone without a blue armband showing loyalty to Ukraine?

 

[ferball]

There is a limit to many fricking independent countries we have.

I know right. Hawaii, Crimea, Palestine, Taiwan, East Timor, West Papua, Tasmania...

These campaigners need to know their place.

And this was only 12 months after being agreeable to be part of Ukraine. I’d like to see the data on that poll as well (in terms of free and fair or was it a nebulous “independence “ without things like a budget/ structure/ viability)

Look I think the horse has well and truly bolted on because its a long time ago and accurate media about how the general population really feel, who they were demographically etc might be hard to find. When I was sussing this out I came across a reference to an independence referendum or something. I think it was 90%+ in favour of independence. i can't remember the details tho and can't be arsed chasing them. I'm really only still up cos its the coolest its been around here for about a week.

I've also seen links between Tartars and Ukraine referred to. So its not unreasonable the Crimeans may have wanted to be part of Ukraine. I dunno tho. At some point in the 90s i think Ukraine dissolved Crimea's parliament and constitution unilaterally. If I get the chance I'll chase it up over the next day or two. No promises tho.

 

[Bloods86]

If you still think this conflict was unprovoked, you are consumed by the propaganda and willfully ignored known facts.

Do you think the same with Palestine and Israel?

You're yet to explain how it was provoked, but I understand your need, like Greenwald's, to downplay Russia's unnecessary aggression and blame the US/West.

This isn't the Israel and Palestine thread, but there are some similarities in Hamas and Israel's unjustified actions and terror tactics, with those of Russia's.

That doesn't mean he's anti-American

His words. It's not my fault if he's adopted the same narrow-minded focus that he lambasted years ago.

 

[BlueE]

You're yet to explain how it was provoked, but I understand your need, like Greenwald's, to downplay Russia's unnecessary aggression and blame the US/West.

This isn't the Israel and Palestine thread, but there are some similarities in Hamas and Israel's unjustified actions and terror tactics, with those of Russia's.


His words. It's not my fault if he's adopted the same narrow-minded focus that he lambasted years ago.

Yes I've explained with evidence from declassified security documents and expert analysis, but like a many in here facts are not what you want to hear.

War propaganda is war propaganda, some people are waking up to that fact.

 

[Bloods86]

Yes I've explained with evidence from declassified security documents and expert analysis, but like a many in here facts are not what you want to hear.

War propaganda is war propaganda, some people are waking up to that fact.

You've provided what has convinced you, that doesn't mean the rest of us are going to imagine and assume the same missing links, or ignore the actions and statements from Russian leadership that contradict their war propaganda for the gullible.

 

[Mobbs]

You are the person loudly proclaiming a not only debunked but disgraceful lie about Bandera, and are so biased that you ignore anything that doesn't support your view.

The Ministry of Foreign Affairs claimed in its Telegram statement that Russian forces pulled out of Bucha on March 30.



Ukrainian Territorial Defence forces "Botsman" boys entered Bucha on March 31st, posted on April 1 "Actually there is nothing to do there. Just mountains of burnt equipment and houses."

2nd April Ukraine army documented in video wrecked cars, broken tanks, destroyed buildings and disarray but no bodies.

The Ukrainian Territorial Defence "Botsman" boys and their leader Sergei Korotkikh are implicated in their own video they posted of them giving the green light to shoot anyone without a blue armband showing loyalty to Ukraine?

Oh yeah I remember when that propaganda was launched long ago and was shortly after shown to be false. The RF propaganda machine were also making ludicrous claims about bodies moving as though they were staged actors. I didn't think even Russia continued to push these fakes. Maybe they don't, maybe only their useful idiots do.

Massacre in Bucha Meduza reconstructs the Russian occupation of Bucha — and debunks Kremlin lies about crimes against civilians — Meduza

On April 2, international journalists and Ukrainian military units entered Bucha, a suburb of Kyiv. The previous evening, videos showing the bodies of civilians lying on Yablonska Street had begun surfacing on Telegram, shocking people around the world. Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky...

meduza.io

 

[Mobbs]

So, on topic, there are not any major changes in the territory gained or recovered along the front. Apologies but I don't have all the links handy right now as there's been a lot of jaw-dropping distraction.


- There is a small village somewhere in the Kupyansk region which it seems the RF have been able to take. Not Synkivka, but kind of on the way to Synkivka. Excuse spelling.


- The Ukrainian Defence have begun building a substantial multi-row lines of defences behind the front, in essence a bit of a mirror to the Sirovikin Line. Link is Meduza but they are reposting a Telegraph article.

500: Internal Server Error

- There was an altercation between Akhmat soldiers and local occupying troops in Melitopol (or some village near to it). I'll try to find video.


- Friction continues in Bashkortostan, more arrests are made.


- The fire in the port out east of SPb in Leningrad Oblast (forgot town name) was controlled reasonably quickly. Ships sailed out of port for safety. There was damage at the port, unsure tho if it was very much.

 

[BlueE]

Oh yeah I remember when that propaganda was launched long ago and was shortly after shown to be false. The RF propaganda machine were also making ludicrous claims about bodies moving as though they were staged actors. I didn't think even Russia continued to push these fakes. Maybe they don't, maybe only their useful idiots do.

Massacre in Bucha Meduza reconstructs the Russian occupation of Bucha — and debunks Kremlin lies about crimes against civilians — Meduza

On April 2, international journalists and Ukrainian military units entered Bucha, a suburb of Kyiv. The previous evening, videos showing the bodies of civilians lying on Yablonska Street had begun surfacing on Telegram, shocking people around the world. Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky...

meduza.io

Confirmed by Min. of Defence and independent advisors, Russians gone on 30th.

Mayor video on 31st confirming date, Russians gone and no bodies in streets.

Text from Botsman on 1st "Actually there is nothing to do there. Just mountains of burnt equipment and houses."

Video posted on Telegram channel “Botsman” that shows members of his combat group walking around Bucha and discussing whether to shoot people without blue armbands (which Ukrainian soldiers wear to distinguish themselves).

It’s true that Korotkykh’s group was in Bucha after Russian troops left.

Members of the group filmed the video on Vokzalna Street, where Russian military vehicles that were destroyed by Ukrainian artillery fire in early March are still standing. The area where the bodies lay on Yablonska Street is less than 500 meters away.

However, Sergey Korotkykh himself told Meduza that the video was filmed on April 2, when Ukrainian police officers and journalists had already entered the city.

So there a discrepancy in the time posted was before it was taken and it's a coincidence that all the bodies were found with white armbands or white cloth, indicating Russian sympathiser?

On the word of one of the most vicious neo Nazi criminals, who said he wasn't even there?

I'm sure you've given everyone a run down of "call sign Botsman" and his "boys". Have you?

I've said from the start, this is a war crime that needs to be properly investigated with evidence judged by a Criminal Court.

I don't know what the US citizen Lira said to justify the "charges" against him and still waiting for the video, but I have seen videos of him criticising Zelenskyy and exposing the millions he was given by corrupt oligarch Kolomoisky.

 

[Profop]

Confirmed by Min. of Defence and independent advisors, Russians gone on 30th.

Mayor video on 31st confirming date, Russians gone and no bodies in streets.

Text from Botsman on 1st "Actually there is nothing to do there. Just mountains of burnt equipment and houses."

Video posted on Telegram channel “Botsman” that shows members of his combat group walking around Bucha and discussing whether to shoot people without blue armbands (which Ukrainian soldiers wear to distinguish themselves).

It’s true that Korotkykh’s group was in Bucha after Russian troops left.

Members of the group filmed the video on Vokzalna Street, where Russian military vehicles that were destroyed by Ukrainian artillery fire in early March are still standing. The area where the bodies lay on Yablonska Street is less than 500 meters away.

However, Sergey Korotkykh himself told Meduza that the video was filmed on April 2, when Ukrainian police officers and journalists had already entered the city.

So there a discrepancy in the time posted was before it was taken and it's a coincidence that all the bodies were found with white armbands or white cloth, indicating Russian sympathiser?

On the word of one of the most vicious neo Nazi criminals, who said he wasn't even there?

I'm sure you've given everyone a run down of "call sign Botsman" and his "boys". Have you?

I've said from the start, this is a war crime that needs to be properly investigated with evidence judged by a Criminal Court.

I don't know what the US citizen Lira said to justify the "charges" against him and still waiting for the video, but I have seen videos of him criticising Zelenskyy and exposing the millions he was given by corrupt oligarch Kolomoisky.

So clearly you’re fully cooked (I remember you from the COVID thread) but I am interested in how this comes about

What is the forum that you go to where people discuss all these theories?

 

[BlueE]

You've provided what has convinced you, that doesn't mean the rest of us are going to imagine and assume the same missing links, or ignore the actions and statements from Russian leadership that contradict their war propaganda for the gullible.

I have no expectations that the declassified security documents that convinced the panel of independent researchers and anyone else who read them, will convince you or most of "the rest of us" in this thread.

Lol. It is not me, or a couple of others, ignoring or not being able to recognise propaganda from either side.