Europe War in Ukraine - Thread 4 - thread rules updated

[Gethelred]

This is the thread for discussing the War in Ukraine. Should you want to discuss the geopolitics, the history, or an interesting tangent, head over here:

Europe - Backdrop to the war in Ukraine

This is the thread for the geopolitics, history and framework around the Russia-Ukraine conflict. If you want to discuss the events of the war, head over to this thread: https://www.bigfooty.com/forum/threads/war-in-ukraine-thread-4-thread-rules-updated.1376293/page-146

www.bigfooty.com

If a post isn't directly concerning the events of the war or starts to derail the thread, report the post to us and we'll move it over there.

Seeing as multiple people seem to have forgotten, abuse is against the rules of BF. Continuous, page long attacks directed at a single poster in this thread will result in threadbans for a week from this point; doing so again once you have returned will make the bans permanent and will be escalated to infractions.

This thread still has misinformation rules, and occasionally you will be asked to demonstrate a claim you have made by moderation. If you cannot, you will be offered the opportunity to amend the post to reflect that it's opinion, to remove the post, or you will be threadbanned and infracted for sharing misinformation.

Addendum: from this point, use of any variant of the word 'orc' to describe combatants, politicians or russians in general will be deleted and the poster will receive a warning. If the behaviour continues, it will be escalated. Consider this fair warning.

Finally: If I see the word Nazi or Hitler being flung around, there had better have a good faith basis as to how it's applicable to the Russian invasion - as in, video/photographic evidence of POW camps designed to remove another ethnic group - or to the current Ukrainian army. If this does not occur, you will be threadbanned for posting off topic

This is a sensitive area, and I understand that this makes for fairly incensed conversation sometimes. This does not mean the rules do not apply, whether to a poster positing a Pro-Ukraine stance or a poster positing an alternative view.

Behave, people.

 

[PeterSalt]

I don’t know if he’s credible, but it does seem his comments about the issues with Ukraine’s training, tactics and equipment are coming to fruition. Is it any worse than the “experts” who guaranteed that Ukraine would easily roll the Russians and be lounging on Crimean beaches by last July?



No, as I’ve said before I’m a supporter of Ukraine’s democracy over Russia’s dictatorship 100%. But it seems to me as if Ukraine is now losing. Incrementally now, but when the effect of the US funding cuts haven’t shown up yet.

I just can’t see how Ukraine can break through the lines now. When they had full US support and weaponry, multiple mechanised brigades trained by NATO and Russian its weakest position of the war they couldn’t make a dent in the frontline. Ukraine is in a weaker position now how can they ever retake the lost territory?

I don’t know if Russia has the manpower, equipment and weaponry to drive all the way to Kyiv, but that now seems to be the more likely outcome vs Ukraine retaking all of their lost territory including Crimea

The experts weren't listening to Ukraine and their need for air support. There is no way the US or NATO, or any western military would've attempted an offensive without air support like Ukraine did. And to some degree the Ukrainians were pushed into it.

Ukrainian sanity seemed to prevail and they moved into more defensive action.


Most of the experts now believe the result will depend on economics

The ability of russia to out manufacture the west

russia is now pouring around 30% of its GDP in the war. If Europe and the west can't out produce russia, we're all f*cked

The antics going on right now in the US isn't helping. German refusal to supply Taurus missiles is absurd.

Russia is no longer trying to take all of Ukraine. They're trying to force a stalemate and degrade western support of Ukraine. And with that some sort ceasefire or negotiations.

It's worth remembering putin, lavrov and others have repeated said they'd be open to negotiations. The quite part is they they won't consider negotiations without Ukraine giving up additional lands to russia that they haven't occupied in this war.

And historically, russia uses ceasefires and peace negotiations to lick their wounds, build up their military and and attack again


At current prodution vs destruction rates, russia won't have any tanks in 12 months time.

They are now having to spread their air defence as Ukraine destroy them or continues to hit high value targets like oil refinery's. They simply don't have enough.

And with russian reliance on oil income, the latest hits are going to hurt economically.

Cutting off Kerch Bridge would a hugh boon for Ukraine as most of the southern forces are supplied through Crimea. Sure, they can still use ferries, but volume will diminish.


I wouldn't be close to dooming right now

 

[Mobbs]

Cutting off Kerch Bridge would a hugh boon for Ukraine as most of the southern forces are supplied through Crimea. Sure, they can still use ferries, but volume will diminish.

There was work underway to build a new rail line which would connext Donetsk (or Rostov, or both) through to the Kherson oblast, tracking much closer to the coast of the Azov (Mariupol, Berdyansk etc.) This is of course because current rail connection from RF directly to southern Zaporizhzhe and easter Kherson oblasts wanders far too close to the current frontline where Ukraine can just pick off any transport vehicles (same with road transport). These rumours are some months old and I've heard nothing new about it since, so I have no idea about the progress, or if its even still a project underway. So Kerch (and the twin bottlenecks of Armiansk and Chonhar) are still just as large a target as ever. Currently its those options, and ferries as you say.

 

[PeterSalt]

There was work underway to build a new rail line which would connext Donetsk (or Rostov, or both) through to the Kherson oblast, tracking much closer to the coast of the Azov (Mariupol, Berdyansk etc.) This is of course because current rail connection from RF directly to southern Zaporizhzhe and easter Kherson oblasts wanders far too close to the current frontline where Ukraine can just pick off any transport vehicles (same with road transport). These rumours are some months old and I've heard nothing new about it since, so I have no idea about the progress, or if its even still a project underway. So Kerch (and the twin bottlenecks of Armiansk and Chonhar) are still just as large a target as ever. Currently its those options, and ferries as you say.

Yeah, you're right. Haven't heard much about that new railway for a while either. It'll still be in range of Scalp and Storm Shadow missiles though.

I get irritated with the type of analysis in the video. It just plays into a russian narrative

It was dooming over some aspects of Ukrainian defence. Yet overlooks the facts like the russians have moved their fleet back to mainland ports and that the shipping corridor has been opened up

Doesn't take into account the complete lack of training the russians are getting

Doesn't take into account russia advances, since there initial invasion, have all been through massive indiscriminate use of artillery. russia simply doesn't have have the shells left to carry out that style of offensive now. They're begging DPRK for artillery shells. And the DPKR shells are so often so far out of spec there causing catastrophic barrel failures

Sure, russia claimed a week or so back that they'd domestically produce 1.2M of their own shells this year. But European producers are forecasting the same production for 2024

russian advances have all involved a 3 or 4:1 advantage in shell consumption. It's hard to see how they'll make any progress if artillery is near parity when Ukraine will have a massive advantage in range and accuracy

And if the F-16's finally make an appearance in spring, they're going to push russian aircraft a lot further back from the front

 

[jatz14]

I don’t know if he’s credible, but it does seem his comments about the issues with Ukraine’s training, tactics and equipment are coming to fruition. Is it any worse than the “experts” who guaranteed that Ukraine would easily roll the Russians and be lounging on Crimean beaches by last July?



No, as I’ve said before I’m a supporter of Ukraine’s democracy over Russia’s dictatorship 100%. But it seems to me as if Ukraine is now losing. Incrementally now, but when the effect of the US funding cuts haven’t shown up yet.

I just can’t see how Ukraine can break through the lines now. When they had full US support and weaponry, multiple mechanised brigades trained by NATO and Russian its weakest position of the war they couldn’t make a dent in the frontline. Ukraine is in a weaker position now how can they ever retake the lost territory?

I don’t know if Russia has the manpower, equipment and weaponry to drive all the way to Kyiv, but that now seems to be the more likely outcome vs Ukraine retaking all of their lost territory including Crimea

People keep missing what a Ukrainian win will look like.

Like Vietnam beating the US without winning a major battle, and with Afghanistan winning against the Soviet Union, without physically pushing the Soviet army out of Afghanistan.

The Russian army is in Ukraine, but if they aren't advancing, they're losing.

If Ukraine isn't going backwards, or falling apart, they are winning.

At some point, the cost in materials, and money, and men, and prestige, and sanctions, of keeping an army in a hostile country, becomes greater than the benefits they can get.

Russia was hoping to overwhelm them, fighting stops, hurrah, they win. But that didn't happen.

Then they tried to grind them back and wear them out until they couldn't fight anymore, hurrah, victory. But that didn't happen either.

Now they are just trying to outlast them, and the limits of Western willingness to support them, so Ukraine goes, we need to stop fighting, we will give you what you want. Hurrah, victory, sort of. But that isn't happening either.

Here is how Ukraine wins.

Russia says, this is what we want to end fighting. Ukraine says no.
Repeat.
Repeat.
This year, if necessary, next year, and the year after. No.

One day, Russia will ask, what do you want for the war to end?
And that's the day the negotiations that will end the war on Ukrainian terms will begin.

Who takes this or that town, who advances 100 m, or a km here or there doesn't matter anymore, and it will not matter for the remainder of the war.

On SM-X200 using BigFooty.com mobile app

 

[PeterSalt]

People keep missing what a Ukrainian win will look like.

Like Vietnam beating the US without winning a major battle, and with Afghanistan winning against the Soviet Union, without physically pushing the Soviet army out of Afghanistan.

The Russian army is in Ukraine, but if they aren't advancing, they're losing.

If Ukraine isn't going backwards, or falling apart, they are winning.

At some point, the cost in materials, and money, and men, and prestige, and sanctions, of keeping an army in a hostile country, becomes greater than the benefits they can get.

Russia was hoping to overwhelm them, fighting stops, hurrah, they win. But that didn't happen.

Then they tried to grind them back and wear them out until they couldn't fight anymore, hurrah, victory. But that didn't happen either.

Now they are just trying to outlast them, and the limits of Western willingness to support them, so Ukraine goes, we need to stop fighting, we will give you what you want. Hurrah, victory, sort of. But that isn't happening either.

Here is how Ukraine wins.

Russia says, this is what we want to end fighting. Ukraine says no.
Repeat.
Repeat.
This year, if necessary, next year, and the year after. No.

One day, Russia will ask, what do you want for the war to end?
And that's the day the negotiations that will end the war on Ukrainian terms will begin.

Who takes this or that town, who advances 100 m, or a km here or there doesn't matter anymore, and it will not matter for the remainder of the war.

On SM-X200 using BigFooty.com mobile app

I think this is important

People keep excluding Ukraine from the conversation of ending the war

They won't stop unless they're completely exhausted, with or without western aid

The only way they'll stop prior to that is if russia leaves or is expelled from all of the territories based on 1991 borders

 

[Rayzorwire]

I can speak enough that russians compliment me on it in a patting my head "aww how cute a guy from a country that can barely speak english knows a little russian" kind of way! But it's just a number of basic terms and I am still stuck quickly when trying to understand russian language spoken back to me.

LMAO, yep, exactly the same!

I cant answer your comment on media freedom as I only know what russians say about it. I have no idea what westerners are told. By comparison TO western freedoms, its a no-contest (can debate this if required). By comparison to western percerption of it, I can't comment.

Cheers mate.

 

[Rayzorwire]

Orban now controls over 80% of Hungary's media.

Hungary has close has the highest level of corruption of any EU countries according the Transparency Int

Seems odd that Orban, members of his family and close friends and associates have become incredibly wealthy in a very short space of time under his leadership

He's not looking after Hungary's interests

2022 Corruption Perceptions Index: Explore the results

How does your country measure up in the 2022 Corruption Perceptions Index?

www.transparency.org

Coming from very much the opposite end of the political spectrum, I'm hardly going to argue that Orban is some kind of wonderful leader (sure, the man's a rather autocratic, right-wing, bullying power broker who sets up his mates at every opportunity) however, that was clearly not a point I was making.

Using their method of 'financial nationalisation', Hungary has done considerably better under Orban's stewardship than it would have if it was still at the mercy of the EU central bankers. They've become an example to others by doing so, leaving the vast majority of EU members in their dust for consistent growth.

In the end, perhaps Hungarians have decided would rather be robbed of considerably less by Hungarians (Orban and his cronies), instead of the alternative - robbed of way more by foreigners?

Certainly seems they're voting that way, which was my point.

How you - or the many other foreigners weighing in - feel about him is probably not that important to Hungarians.

 

[Cap]

Coming from very much the opposite end of the political spectrum, I'm hardly going to argue that Orban is some kind of wonderful leader (sure, the man's a rather autocratic, right-wing, bullying power broker who sets up his mates at every opportunity) however, that was clearly not a point I was making.

Using their method of 'financial nationalisation', Hungary has done considerably better under Orban's stewardship than it would have if it was still at the mercy of the EU central bankers. They've become an example to others by doing so, leaving the vast majority of EU members in their dust for consistent growth.

In the end, perhaps Hungarians have decided would rather be robbed of considerably less by Hungarians (Orban and his cronies), instead of the alternative - robbed of way more by foreigners?

Certainly seems they're voting that way, which was my point.

How you - or the many other foreigners weighing in - feel about him is probably not that important to Hungarians.

And that's fine.

Kick them out of nato and the EU and see how they go against the 'peaceful' Russia

How long do you give them?

 

[PeterSalt]

Seriously .. this is the nonsense that is posted daily from a wide variety of russian sources

Some western media just run with it, without doing and semblance of fact checking

And we get people in the west then using this garbage and the source to legitmise their articles, posts and opinions

It's nothing short of a joke

 

[Cap]

People keep missing what a Ukrainian win will look like.

Like Vietnam beating the US without winning a major battle, and with Afghanistan winning against the Soviet Union, without physically pushing the Soviet army out of Afghanistan.

The Russian army is in Ukraine, but if they aren't advancing, they're losing.

If Ukraine isn't going backwards, or falling apart, they are winning.

At some point, the cost in materials, and money, and men, and prestige, and sanctions, of keeping an army in a hostile country, becomes greater than the benefits they can get.

Russia was hoping to overwhelm them, fighting stops, hurrah, they win. But that didn't happen.

Then they tried to grind them back and wear them out until they couldn't fight anymore, hurrah, victory. But that didn't happen either.

Now they are just trying to outlast them, and the limits of Western willingness to support them, so Ukraine goes, we need to stop fighting, we will give you what you want. Hurrah, victory, sort of. But that isn't happening either.

Here is how Ukraine wins.

Russia says, this is what we want to end fighting. Ukraine says no.
Repeat.
Repeat.
This year, if necessary, next year, and the year after. No.

One day, Russia will ask, what do you want for the war to end?
And that's the day the negotiations that will end the war on Ukrainian terms will begin.

Who takes this or that town, who advances 100 m, or a km here or there doesn't matter anymore, and it will not matter for the remainder of the war.

On SM-X200 using BigFooty.com mobile app

It's the Bridge.

Once they blow that bridge it's game on.

 

[PeterSalt]

Coming from very much the opposite end of the political spectrum, I'm hardly going to argue that Orban is some kind of wonderful leader (sure, the man's a rather autocratic, right-wing, bullying power broker who sets up his mates at every opportunity) however, that was clearly not a point I was making.

Using their method of 'financial nationalisation', Hungary has done considerably better under Orban's stewardship than it would have if it was still at the mercy of the EU central bankers. They've become an example to others by doing so, leaving the vast majority of EU members in their dust for consistent growth.

In the end, perhaps Hungarians have decided would rather be robbed of considerably less by Hungarians (Orban and his cronies), instead of the alternative - robbed of way more by foreigners?

Certainly seems they're voting that way, which was my point.

How you - or the many other foreigners weighing in - feel about him is probably not that important to Hungarians.

Interesting .. you claim Hungarians are happier

Are they? Pretty easy to control and suppress the population when you have the power and control the media

Also interesting is that Orban continues to claim parts of western Ukraine as Hungarian territories. He's also gone down the same path as russia as claiming Ukraine is suppressing Hungarian language (among other things) as a reason Hungary should reclaim these lands

Weirdly though, the people who live there want nothing to do with Hungary. Want to remain as a part of Ukraine and continue to to dispute his claims on language and cultural suppression

 

[Rayzorwire]

If Russians are exposed to frequent government criticism and balanced reporting on world affairs, and in fact can distinguish between propaganda and reality, then this speaks poorly of Russians. Given Putin's popularity in the face of his barbarity in Ukraine and other places,

I suspect that's not what the Russian people see - why would they when you put yourself in their shoes?

They watched 8yrs of the Donbass being shelled and civilians being killed. That war was NEVER on our TV's, for Russians it was every night for the best part of a decade. We think this 2yrs in now is a long conflict, but for them it's simply 20% of the total.

If the civilian death toll from Ukraine is so far somewhere in the 5-10,000 range (happy to accept any other sourced figures), and Russian military experts are clearly explaining (as I'm sure they are) that every time Ukraine successfully 'shoots down' a Russian missile or drone with a defensive missile, it doesn't just disappear in a puff of smoke, bits of shrapnel go literally everywhere, while the hundreds of defensive missiles that miss end up...where?

Certainly not in Russia, they land in Ukraine. Sometimes, no doubt, to everybody's shame, on civilians.

That is the reality of missile warfare and I'm sure Russian TV explains this reality to the Russian people.

No doubt they will also explain that such incidents - regardless of how immoral and repulsive ordinary people may find this - are not regarded as 'war crimes' under international law.

Does our TV news explain the reality of Russia's missile warfare in this way? I would argue it does not.

So when Russian people compare and contrast the "barbarity" you claim Russia has displayed in Ukraine (in what they feel is an existential war), with the barbarity of Iraq (for what?), or the barbarity of Libya (for what?), or the barbarity of 20,000 Palestinian civilians being killed in a month by bombs clearly meant to land on them (i.e. not a deflection or miss from defensive missile systems - Palestine has none), all largely sanctioned by the West, do you reckon they think their leader has displayed more, or less barbarity than the leaders - Democrat or Republican - of the US over the same period?

Maybe they feel US leaders are being easily proven massive hypocrites to point fingers?

his repression of minorities and political opponents.

Has his opponents arrested?

From which shining democracy did I hear a story about that kind of thing recently...

It would be morally reprehensible to actually understand the truth and still support it

Their truth and your truth are clearly different.

 

[Rayzorwire]

This quite possibly the biggest load codswallop I've read for while

This was my clear contender, a long way out in front of the pack:




Lead journalists at the New York Times are on Putin's payroll?

I resisted the temptation to quote that as quite possibly the silliest thing I've ever read earlier in the week, decided it was a bit rude to someone I'd never conversed with before.

Now? Well...

Interesting .. you claim Hungarians are happier

Are they? Pretty easy to control and suppress the population when you have the power and control the media

Again, what's different to other countries? Bought and paid for by corporations and/or governments media designed to shape our opinions dominates globally.

There's been endless months of protests about cost of living right across Europe for a long while now, but good luck finding reports of it happening in Europe's MSM.

Also interesting is that Orban continues to claim parts of western Ukraine as Hungarian territories.

You'll find no shortage of people in Poland and Romania who feel they also have claims.

Quite the list of grievances when Ukraine's Soviet borders were finalised.

 

[PeterSalt]

This was my clear contender, a long way out in front of the pack:

View attachment 1893152


Lead journalists at the New York Times are on Putin's payroll?

I resisted the temptation to quote that as quite possibly the silliest thing I've ever read earlier in the week, decided it was a bit rude to someone I'd never conversed with before.

Now? Well...





Again, what's different to other countries? Bought and paid for by corporations and/or governments media designed to shape our opinions dominates globally.

There's been endless months of protests about cost of living right across Europe for a long while now, but good luck finding reports of it happening in Europe's MSM.





You'll find no shortage of people in Poland and Romania who feel they also have claims.

Quite the list of grievances when Ukraine's Soviet borders were finalised.

Are you now playing the man? Do you feel aggrieved?

I don't think I ever stated NYT journo's are on putin's payroll. I did suggest they have a history of publishing narratives favourable to russia

It's actually quite a common theme throughout western media right now. The BBC has also been appalling

Sorry, you're Hungarian and don't like facing a few home truths. Again, sorry .. not sorry

Can you explain why Hungary's foreign minister was in moscow a few weeks ago? Why orban is still singing putin's tune?

The only other dignatories that have been to moscow of late are Hamas, Houthis, Iriaians and the North Koreans .. how would you like to explain that .. oh, and I missed the Taliban

It's ok to admit you support terrorists and dictators, just be honest about it

 

[Bloods86]

I suspect that's not what the Russian people see

Yes, the state media narratives, internet censorship, punishment or death of those who speak the truth about what Russia has been doing to Ukraine, both as a nation militarily and deliberate acts against civilians, have already been noted, so it's no surprise if many Russians can't see what is going on.

They watched 8yrs of the Donbass being shelled and civilians being killed. That war was NEVER on our TV's, for Russians it was every night for the best part of a decade.

Yes, in a conflict that Russia stoked, backed and was both indirectly and directly involved in. I suspect many Russian citizens have only been exposed to and bought the state propaganda that Russia was simply supporting a legitimate independence struggle.

If the civilian death toll from Ukraine is so far somewhere in the 5-10,000 range (happy to accept any other sourced figures), and Russian military experts are clearly explaining (as I'm sure they are) that every time Ukraine successfully 'shoots down' a Russian missile or drone with a defensive missile, it doesn't just disappear in a puff of smoke, bits of shrapnel go literally everywhere, while the hundreds of defensive missiles that miss end up...where?

Certainly not in Russia, they land in Ukraine. Sometimes, no doubt, to everybody's shame, on civilians.

That is the reality of missile warfare and I'm sure Russian TV explains this reality to the Russian people.

No doubt they will also explain that such incidents - regardless of how immoral and repulsive ordinary people may find this - are not regarded as 'war crimes' under international law.

Does our TV news explain the reality of Russia's missile warfare in this way? I would argue it does not.

If this is your view and Russian state media's summation of Russian actions in Ukraine, then a) you're both liars, and b) seemingly fine with the unprovoked, deliberate targeting of civilians. Which is disgusting.

So when Russian people compare and contrast the "barbarity" you claim Russia has displayed in Ukraine (in what they feel is an existential war), with the barbarity of Iraq (for what?), or the barbarity of Libya (for what?), or the barbarity of 20,000 Palestinian civilians being killed in a month by bombs clearly meant to land on them (i.e. not a deflection or miss from defensive missile systems - Palestine has none), all largely sanctioned by the West, do you reckon they think their leader has displayed more, or less barbarity than the leaders - Democrat or Republican - of the US over the same period?

Maybe they feel US leaders are being easily proven massive hypocrites to point fingers?

Has his opponents arrested?

From which shining democracy did I hear a story about that kind of thing recently...

If you wish to discuss unrelated topics/conflicts, there's threads for most of these. We would probably agree on quite a bit re: Iraq, Palestine etc.

 

[Baldur]

People keep missing what a Ukrainian win will look like.

Like Vietnam beating the US without winning a major battle, and with Afghanistan winning against the Soviet Union, without physically pushing the Soviet army out of Afghanistan.

The Russian army is in Ukraine, but if they aren't advancing, they're losing.

If Ukraine isn't going backwards, or falling apart, they are winning.

At some point, the cost in materials, and money, and men, and prestige, and sanctions, of keeping an army in a hostile country, becomes greater than the benefits they can get.

Russia was hoping to overwhelm them, fighting stops, hurrah, they win. But that didn't happen.

Then they tried to grind them back and wear them out until they couldn't fight anymore, hurrah, victory. But that didn't happen either.

Now they are just trying to outlast them, and the limits of Western willingness to support them, so Ukraine goes, we need to stop fighting, we will give you what you want. Hurrah, victory, sort of. But that isn't happening either.

Here is how Ukraine wins.

Russia says, this is what we want to end fighting. Ukraine says no.
Repeat.
Repeat.
This year, if necessary, next year, and the year after. No.

One day, Russia will ask, what do you want for the war to end?
And that's the day the negotiations that will end the war on Ukrainian terms will begin.

Who takes this or that town, who advances 100 m, or a km here or there doesn't matter anymore, and it will not matter for the remainder of the war.

On SM-X200 using BigFooty.com mobile app

My take is Ukraine cannot lose and therefore will win at some time if the west continues to supply them. But I simply do not trust the leaders of the west, so who knows what the result will be.

Fools keep saying the war is at a stalemate, no it is not. Russia continues to expend masses of kit and men to take tiny parcels of land and damage apartment buildings. Ukraine sits in defence, killing at a ratio Russia cannot afford, while damaging industry and military infrastructure. For instance, without a fleet, they have driven the Black Sea fleet from their forward ports.

Ukraine is winning, not in the same dramatic fashion they did in late 2022, but they are winning.

 

[PeterSalt]

This was my clear contender, a long way out in front of the pack:

View attachment 1893152


Lead journalists at the New York Times are on Putin's payroll?

I resisted the temptation to quote that as quite possibly the silliest thing I've ever read earlier in the week, decided it was a bit rude to someone I'd never conversed with before.

Now? Well...





Again, what's different to other countries? Bought and paid for by corporations and/or governments media designed to shape our opinions dominates globally.

There's been endless months of protests about cost of living right across Europe for a long while now, but good luck finding reports of it happening in Europe's MSM.





You'll find no shortage of people in Poland and Romania who feel they also have claims.

Quite the list of grievances when Ukraine's Soviet borders were finalised.

You strike me as the sort of bloke who'll start repeating this nonsense as the truth

Yet the bloke who was convicted of shooting down MH-17 was russian and convicted in absentia at The Hague for his crime, has admitted multiple times on the record of his involvement

Weirdly, he's also just been convicted to spend 4 years in prison in russia. There was post a few days ago highlighting this

When are people going to understand and accept russians are pathological liars

 

[Baldur]

You strike me as the sort of bloke who'll start repeating this nonsense as the truth

Yet the bloke who was convicted of shooting down MH-17 was russian and convicted in absentia at The Hague for his crime, has admitted multiple times on the record of his involvement

Weirdly, he's also just been convicted to spend 4 years in prison in russia. There was post a few days ago highlighting this

When are people going to understand and accept russians are pathological liars

“We know they are lying, they know they are lying, they know we know they are lying, we know they know we know they are lying, but they are still lying.”

 

[PeterSalt]

“We know they are lying, they know they are lying, they know we know they are lying, we know they know we know they are lying, but they are still lying.”

Yet the unsuspecting gobble up their garbage

FB and Tik Tok have a lot to answer for

 

[Cap]

Yet the unsuspecting gobble up their garbage

FB and Tik Tok have a lot to answer for

Let's not forget Twitter

 

[Baldur]

Yet the unsuspecting gobble up their garbage

FB and Tik Tok have a lot to answer for

Fools gotta Fool.

Basically, there is an entire group of people to whom the belief that they are the only ones in their society to see the "truth" underpins their self-esteem. Flat earthers, young earth creationists, conspiracy nutters and Putin tankers are fundamentally the same.

Talking to them is a waste of time, their belief is not rational. What FB, Tik Tok and X do is allow them to talk to each other, reinforcing and speading their delusions.

 

[PeterSalt]

Farken lol .. russian mfa getting community noted now

Because they're lying c*nts

 

[GhostofJimJess]

Seriously .. this is the nonsense that is posted daily from a wide variety of russian sources

Some western media just run with it, without doing and semblance of fact checking

And we get people in the west then using this garbage and the source to legitmise their articles, posts and opinions

It's nothing short of a joke

Yes. Even SBS World News ran with the 65 POWs angle on Thursday evening, and they are normally pretty savvy in what and how they present.

I was surprised they ran that narrative without any apparent skepticism.

 

[PeterSalt]

Yes. Even SBS World News ran with the 65 POWs angle on Thursday evening, and they are normally pretty savvy in what and how they present.

I was surprised they ran that narrative without any apparent skepticism.

We should be all questioning the MSN

Yet for younger folk most of their news feed comes from SM .. personally right now I think Tik Tok should be banned in Australia

 

[Baldur]