Europe War in Ukraine - Thread 4 - thread rules updated

[Gethelred]

This is the thread for discussing the War in Ukraine. Should you want to discuss the geopolitics, the history, or an interesting tangent, head over here:

Europe - Backdrop to the war in Ukraine

This is the thread for the geopolitics, history and framework around the Russia-Ukraine conflict. If you want to discuss the events of the war, head over to this thread: https://www.bigfooty.com/forum/threads/war-in-ukraine-thread-4-thread-rules-updated.1376293/page-146

www.bigfooty.com

If a post isn't directly concerning the events of the war or starts to derail the thread, report the post to us and we'll move it over there.

Seeing as multiple people seem to have forgotten, abuse is against the rules of BF. Continuous, page long attacks directed at a single poster in this thread will result in threadbans for a week from this point; doing so again once you have returned will make the bans permanent and will be escalated to infractions.

This thread still has misinformation rules, and occasionally you will be asked to demonstrate a claim you have made by moderation. If you cannot, you will be offered the opportunity to amend the post to reflect that it's opinion, to remove the post, or you will be threadbanned and infracted for sharing misinformation.

Addendum: from this point, use of any variant of the word 'orc' to describe combatants, politicians or russians in general will be deleted and the poster will receive a warning. If the behaviour continues, it will be escalated. Consider this fair warning.

Finally: If I see the word Nazi or Hitler being flung around, there had better have a good faith basis as to how it's applicable to the Russian invasion - as in, video/photographic evidence of POW camps designed to remove another ethnic group - or to the current Ukrainian army. If this does not occur, you will be threadbanned for posting off topic

This is a sensitive area, and I understand that this makes for fairly incensed conversation sometimes. This does not mean the rules do not apply, whether to a poster positing a Pro-Ukraine stance or a poster positing an alternative view.

Behave, people.

 

[peetoo]

We have to recall US/Uk were at loggerheads with europe over WMD Iraq invasion.

It’s not new tension

 

[IlovethePies]

European imperialist powers? Vance said they’re woke commies who love refugees

Do you think what Vance says is a reliable basis for forming your viewpoint?

 

[IlovethePies]

We have to recall US/Uk were at loggerheads with europe over WMD Iraq invasion.

It’s not new tension

No, precisely not. It has been covered up though by Biden's promotion of the war against Russia. He hoped to subordinate Europe to the US through this.
But Trump and the sections of the US oligarchy he represents are done with this policy.
They believe that the alliance with Europe is a liability that has to be dispensed with so that the US can regroup all its resources for the main enemy, China.

 

[peetoo]

No, precisely not. It has been covered up though by Biden's promotion of the war against Russia. He hoped to subordinate Europe to the US through this.
But Trump and the sections of the US oligarchy he represents are done with this policy.
They believe that the alliance with Europe is a liability that has to be dispensed with so that the US can regroup all its resources for the main enemy, China.

That may be the intention, but they are leaving a lot of room for Chinese soft power.

 

[IlovethePies]

What a historically disgraceful day for the USA (no doubt 50% of their population won't think that way sadly). Treating an invited guest and "ally" like that in the White House is just thuggish and horrific behaviour.

I used to think Australia and the USA were similar countries with similar values. How wrong and native i was.

The war in Ukraine has no mass base of support in the US. Trump is attempting to appeal to the anti-war sentiment in the US population by promoting himself as a "peace negotiator".

The Australia-US alliance is the cornerstone of the foreign policy of the Australian ruling elite since WW2. This is why both Albanese and Dutton refuse to openly criticise anything Trump does.

It is the governments of the US and Australia who have shared and similar values, ie the defence of imperialism.

 

[IlovethePies]

That may be the intention, but they are leaving a lot of room for Chinese soft power.

The US has reached a historic impasse. Its economy is now based on a disproportionate loading of parasitic financial capital and the industrial base is hollowed out. The Chinese economy is the dynamo of manufacturing processes, ie the production of material value. The US dominates the global financial economy due to the historic role of the $US as the global currency. But if global investment agencies start to doubt the ability of the US to honour its debt and bondholders, the US Ponzi scheme will collapse.

Hence the US is redeploying everything for the ultimate showdown with China.
Sections of the US ruling class who support Trump are done with the proxy war in Russia, which has yielded nothing tangible so far. Putin's regime remains intact, and China continues to threaten US on all economic fronts.

Expansion of Chinese "soft power" will be met increasingly by US trade war measures and ultimately military measures.

 

[Gavin Excell]

Maybe, but he’s far from tithe great deal maker in his own mind. The conflict has weakened Russia somewhat too

It would have also exposed Russia in the eyes of many as no longer a super power

 

[Johnny Bananas]

Did any single country ever benefit from the US ‘backing’ them?

South Korea and West Germany I guess, but that was when the US had a vested interest in them succeeding.

 

[peetoo]

The US has reached a historic impasse. Its economy is now based on a disproportionate loading of parasitic financial capital and the industrial base is hollowed out. The Chinese economy is the dynamo of manufacturing processes, ie the production of material value. The US dominates the global financial economy due to the historic role of the $US as the global currency. But if global investment agencies start to doubt the ability of the US to honour its debt and bondholders, the US Ponzi scheme will collapse.

Hence the US is redeploying everything for the ultimate showdown with China.
Sections of the US ruling class who support Trump are done with the proxy war in Russia, which has yielded nothing tangible so far. Putin's regime remains intact, and China continues to threaten US on all economic fronts.

Expansion of Chinese "soft power" will be met increasingly by US trade war measures and ultimately military measures.

It’s not great for us. Both happy to crack the whip. China hold the lead in manufacturing and related r&d. US hold the licensing for global platforms and a shuitload of other countries data (think ancestry and it’s dna databases etc)

Hence they can’t operate without each other, but seem to want to

Australia is now in a precarious rope bridge between the two unstable cliffs. Probably more so than any other g20 country

 

[IlovethePies]

Nah but you see Russia isn't actually imperialist according to his convoluted (pseudo)scientific Marxist analysis of their actions

Russia is not an imperialist nation due to history of world capitalism, and not for any other reason that randomly comes into your mind.

 

[IlovethePies]

This is where it is heading according to the Washington Post :Trump is about to pull the pin on all aid to Ukraine after the screaming match in the White House.

 

[IlovethePies]

"A crude and arrogant statement, but at least it is honest. This is a proxy war and the US decides when the proxy war is over, not its proxies.
- What has been done to Ukraine over the past decade is disgusting, it was used to bleed Russia and now its utility is over"
(Glenn Dieson on X

 

[Visions]

It was telling when Zelensky asked Vance if he had been to Ukraine and Vance went to lie and say he has but quickly changed to how he had 'heard' stories.

"I've watched and seen the stories..."

But the best is apparently Zelezky called him a bitch under his breath.



Also Trump saying that without US military equipment Ukraine wouldn't haven't lasted two weeks. And Zelensky replied "in 3 days, I heard it from Putin, in 3 days." lol

As Green Days singer said during tonights concert in Melbourne - **** Donald Trump!

 

[peetoo]

Do you think what Vance says is a reliable basis for forming your viewpoint?

I’m guessing their opinion carrys more weight than mine

 

[Frank Grimes]

Just thinking out load. With the US abandoning Ukraine there are two choices that Europe will have to face and one would be of escalation.

They could keep the status quo in support to Ukraine where Russia will eventually overcome Ukraine and Russia possibly regroup and continue with their expansion into other countries.

Or they could up their military aid and try to push Russia out of Ukranian territory. Including boots on ground and equipment.

If they see it as Russia's motive to increase their expansion long term and therefore an existential threat, then now would be the oppotunity to strike while they are weakened and exhausted. Allowing Russia to win will give Putin time to regroup and Europe will have to eventually face a stronger Russia.

 

[1990crow]

"I've watched and seen the stories..."

But the best is apparently Zelezky called him a bitch under his breath.



Also Trump saying that without US military equipment Ukraine wouldn't haven't lasted two weeks. And Zelensky replied "in 3 days, I heard it from Putin, in 3 days." lol

As Green Days singer said during tonights concert in Melbourne - **** Donald Trump!

What a legend.

 

[peetoo]

Leather couches bitch

 

[wannabejack]

Trump strong-arms Zelenskyy: Afghans have seen these tactics before | Lowy Institute

US talks with the Taliban during Trump 1.0 undercut the nascent Afghan democracy in favour of a “deal”.

www.lowyinstitute.org

While the contexts of Afghanistan and Ukraine are vastly different, Trump’s methods show notable similarities, offering insight into his broader vision for American foreign relations. Both his dealings with the Taliban and Russia share a foundational principle: direct engagement with adversaries, regardless of their authoritarian track records or human rights violations. Trump’s foreign policy often prioritised rapid conflict resolution and the reduction of American military involvement abroad.

These negotiations [with the Taliban] were controversial, as critics argued that direct and high-level engaging with an organisation responsible for egregious human rights abuses, particularly against women and minorities, legitimised a terrorist group.

Trump’s approach to Putin during the Ukraine crisis followed a similar pattern of cautious diplomacy, focused on engagement and de-escalation. His admiration for Putin and his desire to improve US-Russia relations are often apparent in his rhetoric, which downplayed Russia’s aggressive actions in Ukraine. His reluctance to impose severe sanctions on Russia and his frequent praise for Putin’s leadership raises concerns that Trump prioritises a personal rapport over holding Russia accountable for its actions.

Trump must be stopped from sidelining the EU and Ukraine in any negotiations with Russia. Ukraine needs to be central to peace talks.

 

[RICHOLEGEND12]

"A crude and arrogant statement, but at least it is honest. This is a proxy war and the US decides when the proxy war is over, not its proxies.
- What has been done to Ukraine over the past decade is disgusting, it was used to bleed Russia and now its utility is over"
(Glenn Dieson on X

Mate, Glenn Diesen is a known Russian Puppet. Be better.

 

[Aussie in exile]

Mate, Glenn Diesen is a known Russian Puppet. Be better.

Ilovethepies wouldn't have known that.

 

[Bloods86]

Ilovethepies wouldn't have known that.

I don't think they'd care. In fact, they'd probably admire him for it.

 

[Aussie in exile]

I don't think they'd care. In fact, they'd probably admire him for it.

I was referring to Ilovethepies quoting Putin puppets without realising that are putin's puppets.

 

[Mobbs]

From [Denys Davydov TG]:
After yesterday's events in the White House, Haltbakk Bunkers, one of Norway's largest marine fuel companies, appears to have announced that it will no longer refuel American Navy vessels. Haltbakk has called on other European companies to refuse service to American forces.


[subsequent post]
The shutdown may have already affected USS Virginia (SSN-774), which attempted to refuel in Norway today but turned around. (The Virginia class requires some marine diesel for its Caterpillar model 3512B V-12 auxiliary generator).

 

[IlovethePies]

Mate, Glenn Diesen is a known Russian Puppet. Be better.

The video speaks for itself with or without Diesen's comment.

 

[Aussie in exile]

From [Denys Davydov TG]:
After yesterday's events in the White House, Haltbakk Bunkers, one of Norway's largest marine fuel companies, appears to have announced that it will no longer refuel American Navy vessels. Haltbakk has called on other European companies to refuse service to American forces.
View attachment 2238431

[subsequent post]
The shutdown may have already affected USS Virginia (SSN-774), which attempted to refuel in Norway today but turned around. (The Virginia class requires some marine diesel for its Caterpillar model 3512B V-12 auxiliary generator).

donny and his minions just can't see that apart from putin the world is turning against them.
China is loving this.