Was it right to extend Micks contract for another year?

[MarkT]

Re: Was it right to extend Micks contract for another year

If you had read any of my posts over the past 6 years, I would hardly call me a cheerleader!

Just using some of your own sarcasm back at you.

In this instance though, we have a coach who can get us (and WCE) top 5 and do so frequently, sometimes with ordinary lists.

Great. We have a coach who can get us close. Maybe we should bring back Tommy Hafey. BTW, top 5 twice in 7 years with a 7th as next best and only finals appearance is not frequently top 5 and when interspersed with second last x 2 and third last it’s hardly something to celebrate.

What needed to be done and has been done, is to take away the bulk of the recruiting decisions from him..

I am not sure a coach can operate as required on that basis. A coach at least has to be heavily involved in decisions on who to trade out and in. I don’t think MM has been good here and I doubt he has been removed from the process but if he has it is a problem anyway.

It remains to be seen if Hine is good enough, but he's already better than 01-03 recruiting, which is what is still hurting us.

It is simplistic to blame the drafts of 01-03. There weren’t great drafts and a lot of clubs didn’t do that well with them, particularly 2002/3. We just drafted, traded, culled, recruited and did everything else list management wise poorly. All that is fundamental but ignoring it all, I still think MM’s actual coaching is average and his handling of players who might look to move is poor. He can’t resurrect relationships. I struggle to find a real strength.

Last year, Malthouse beat many "glamour boy" coaches, such as Worsfold and Roos, and did well against Craig twice despite having an inferior list.

We don’t an inferior list to Adelaide we have an inferior football department. He went 1 all with Worsefold winning when they were down a couple of important players. We actually do ok against them and IMO MM threw the WA game away with selection and tactics. (JC at CHF again FFS!).

Beat Eade convincingly once, but we had a crap return leg in the final (******** happens).

I don’t think it was convincing and they were down on strength and lost Murphy during the game. From memory we won largely because Swan had a blinder or a great 3rd Q. Dog’s were on the rise but hadn’t yet peaked. We had.

Yeh ******** happens. It happens to us all the time and we always make excuses or dismiss it as bad luck. Can you actually have 50 years of bad luck?

Poor outings against Connoley and Sheedy on all occassions.

Sheedy always smashes MM.

But really, he can match it with anyone of these mugs. He's as good as any coach in the comp.

I disagree. He is pretty good at the mental preparation as a rule and he is good when his plan works well. He is poor when he has to change track and he is very one dimensional.

And if I'm wrong, then we can afford to sack him on the spot. A nice luxury to have! But there's nothing "luxurious" about having ??'s over who's coaching next year and crap like that. It's not good for the Club. Period.

It may not be ideal but then again a bit of friction and uncertainty in a massively stable club can be a positive as well. Regardless the fundamental question is will MM win us a premiership and IMO the answer is no based on what he has produced with us to date. If I am right then it is pointless continuing even if we don’t have readily apparent replacement options which is actually not the case.

 

[Jabso]

You don’t need the replacement before you sack the incumbent. You need to assess the incumbent with respect to the required results and if he doesn’t measure then you have to make the move and find the replacement. It is obviously too late to go in that direction for 2007.

There are always numerous options but the point is, MM has had more than enough time and has failed. He has proven he can’t sufficiently recognise player and list deficiencies and make appropriate corrections. Tactics and flexibility are questionable IMO but that is more subjective. The objective test and ultimate measure is results and ours are simply not good enough.

The fundamental principle to follow when you are in the sound off field position we are in is that you don’t need a proven better alternative to make a change. We aren’t a company chasing financial returns to shareholders. We are a football club chasing one primary aim and that is to win the premiership and we have the capacity to sustain a hit or three along the way. Whereas a public company needs to ensure it doesn’t lose shareholders money and can’t take too many personal risks at the top, CFC can. If we get it horribly wrong we end up with the sort of draft choices we have had under MM anyway. Obviously we wouldn’t want to do that but there is a safety net.

Now as far as candidates go, we have McKenna on staff already. An ex coach like Blight might carry some element of risk but he might also be the 180 degree change we need. What I would actually prefer though is for Collingwood to find the next successful new coach. A few years back people on here scoffed when I said we should get Roos. Like all of them he has his limitations but he succeeded where MM failed while at Collingwood. Maybe it’s Longmire, maybe its McGuane (risky), maybe it was Ross Lyon. Maybe it’s none of them.

What I think we need right now is someone who can look at the list with fresh eyes and evaluate each player.

Fair enough good points.

 

[toommy]

I would dearly love that to be the case but IMO we just don’t have the ruck and midfield to win the flag even with a full squad. We pretty much had a full squad last year. Of course the coach is going to sound positive. Pagan and Sheedy sound positive too. If MM and/or Collingwood are confident of being ultra competitive what possible reason is there to extend the contract pre season and post the AGM for the second year running?

you still haven't told us who you want as coach

 

[toommy]

Anything is possible. Some things are probable. I am not a fortune teller. IMO MM has had his shot, he’s failed and it’s time for someone else. AT the end of the 2007 season it will be 8 seasons with 8 drafts ad 8 trade weeks. After 27 seasons will you still be asking who is to say he won’t improve? Tom Hafey coached Collingwood for less time with more success and got sacked. Eddie has given MM a long time already. More than enough IMO. How long do you want him to get?

we wont get anywhere if you keep holding back,tell us what you really think of malthouse

 

[toommy]

Do you think Collingwood could fit any more sponsor logos on Mick's Polo shirt?

should sack him for that

 

[prO]

Anything is possible. Some things are probable. I am not a fortune teller. IMO MM has had his shot, he’s failed and it’s time for someone else. AT the end of the 2007 season it will be 8 seasons with 8 drafts ad 8 trade weeks. After 27 seasons will you still be asking who is to say he won’t improve? Tom Hafey coached Collingwood for less time with more success and got sacked. Eddie has given MM a long time already. More than enough IMO. How long do you want him to get?

When Michael Jordan was drafted in the NBA - he didnt win a championship in his rookie year. In fact it took some fair amount of time. Does that mean that the Chicago Bulls should have traded him on the basis that he hadn't won them a championship? No, they needed the right pieces in place to make a charge at the championship and even then, its not certain because of other variables. My point is - The CFC obviously see that MM provides a lot of value and are aware of the fact that there other aspects of the club that need to be ironed out before they make a charge at the flag. For you personally that might mean getting rid of Obree. My opinion is we should keep O'bree and draft more inside mids... Whatever it is - The football club has a far better idea at running a club that either you or myself.

 

[Jabso]

Re: Was it right to extend Micks contract for another year

And if I'm wrong, then we can afford to sack him on the spot. A nice luxury to have! But there's nothing "luxurious" about having ??'s over who's coaching next year and crap like that. It's not good for the Club. Period.

Eddie said on SEN that MM, and coaches in general, coach better with the security of another year. He also said the option of sacking MM is always there despite the contract. He was suprisingly candid, as if he was responding to (online) criticisms of himself.

 

[iampig]

Definately NOT

Mick Malthouse has led Collingwood to the worst era in its proud history

161 matches

77 Wins

84 Losses

Winning ratio 47.83%

Never before has this once proud club tolerated such a lengthy period of sub standard onfield performance under the direction of 1 coach.

Ed McGuire should hang his head in shame.Malthouse should be gone.

 

[MarkT]

When Michael Jordan was drafted in the NBA - he didnt win a championship in his rookie year. In fact it took some fair amount of time. Does that mean that the Chicago Bulls should have traded him on the basis that he hadn't won them a championship? No, they needed the right pieces in place to make a charge at the championship and even then, its not certain because of other variables. My point is - The CFC obviously see that MM provides a lot of value and are aware of the fact that there other aspects of the club that need to be ironed out before they make a charge at the flag. For you personally that might mean getting rid of Obree. My opinion is we should keep O'bree and draft more inside mids... Whatever it is - The football club has a far better idea at running a club that either you or myself.

Do you seriously want to compare a rookie players impact on a club to a 20+ year coach?

I agree CFC probably do see that MM provides a lot of value. He’s been there 7 seasons and had a lot of early draft picks. How can he not have the squad to be serious flag contenders for the next 5 years? He gets regularly out coached by the likes of Sheedy.

Maybe the club does have far more idea than you or I. Maybe we should just accept every decision. Did us a lot of good post 1990 didn’t it?

 

[MarkT]

you still haven't told us who you want as coach

What difference does it make? You want me to name someone so you can criticise the choice and therefore claim MM as a better alternative? I’d rather have Longmire or another untried up and comer but the best of them would have to be decided after interviews etc and looking at credentials. The name isn’t the i9ssue though. The issue is that IMO the one we have isn’t good enough so it is dumb to stay with him. Stability is great but it has got Jack in 7 years. We have the capacity through eddies magnificent off field work to take a risk or two of we can’t find a safe bet.

 

[Timmy from Thomastown]

For you personally that might mean getting rid of Obree. My opinion is we should keep O'bree and draft more inside mids... Whatever it is - The football club has a far better idea at running a club that either you or myself.

Pendlebury is sensational in heavy traffic. Iles and Toovey are being groomed as inside mids. Swan is already an ideal inside mid, one that can hurt an opposition by moving forward and kicking goals. Holland still has a lot of football left in him, and will move from a tagging role to an inside ballgetting role as he slows down. Johnson is an ideal inside mid, one with a bit of ability to get the ball out quickly. I've no doubt H Shaw can play the inside role as well. I'd like to think O'Brien could play that role as well.

I think we are already grooming these types of player to gradually replace the likes of Burns Licuria and O'Bree over the next few seasons. In the meantime O'Bree remains our best ballgetter and deserves to be our first choice inside mid until somebody knocks him out of that position.

 

[Timmy from Thomastown]

What difference does it make? .

Humour him, just make up a name.

 

[prO]

Do you seriously want to compare a rookie players impact on a club to a 20+ year coach?

I agree CFC probably do see that MM provides a lot of value. He’s been there 7 seasons and had a lot of early draft picks. How can he not have the squad to be serious flag contenders for the next 5 years? He gets regularly out coached by the likes of Sheedy.

Maybe the club does have far more idea than you or I. Maybe we should just accept every decision. Did us a lot of good post 1990 didn’t it?

He hasn't been 20+ years coach at CFC. My point is quite simple. Had the Bulls decided to trade Michael Jordan after so many years in the NBA - they would never have the 6 Championship Rings they do at the moment.

As far as draft picks are concerned.... Do you seriously believe that MM has a better idea for scoping talent, than actual talent scouts? MM may have given his input, but ultimately its the recruiters responsibility to select players that will benefit the club. As I said there are other variables. Its MM's responsibility to make the most of the cattle hes got. I think considering the lack of 'talent' that the Pies had in recent years (2002 & 2003)... hes proven he is able to make the most of the players he has. Does the footy club keep him on those performances alone? No way, but it certainly gives a fair indication of the sort of coach he is.

Regarding Sheedy out coaching MM - he certainly does get out coached from what I've seen, and it probably explains why the Pies went after Rodney Eade for a "strategic" position. Having said that - MM has out coached Roos who is known for his ability to change a game with his strategy.

Who do you think we should replace Malthouse with?

 

[MarkT]

He hasn't been 20+ years coach at CFC. My point is quite simple. Had the Bulls decided to trade Michael Jordan after so many years in the NBA - they would never have the 6 Championship Rings they do at the moment.

Unbelievably irrelevant and even then it is purely speculation.

As far as draft picks are concerned.... Do you seriously believe that MM has a better idea for scoping talent, than actual talent scouts?

No, I believe he has very little idea in fact.

MM may have given his input, but ultimately its the recruiters responsibility to select players that will benefit the club.

As Balmey has said often, MM had a big input into the type of player. The fat arsed midfielder experiment. Drafting is only part of the problem. Trading for McKee cost us dearly. Dud after dud and many of them from West Coast – that is a significant hindrance to list management. Woewodin – a slow mid when we needed pace. The lack of a remedy to the ruck issues. The lack of proactiveness in addressing pending midfield issues.

Its MM's responsibility to make the most of the cattle hes got.

His responsibility is far greater than that as he would readily admit.

Having said that - MM has out coached Roos who is known for his ability to change a game with his strategy.

What do you base that on? I would guess Roos was ahead on the head to head count but that’s only one indicator. We beat Sydney in 2006 but I couldn’t detect any real tactical superiority. Sheedy always pulls something for us and we rarely have a counter. If plan A works well we win if not we lose.

Who do you think we should replace Malthouse with?

As I have said numerous times – a new coach. I haven’t interviewed them. Based solely on reports I’ll nominate Longmire. I’d rather take a huge punt on McGuane and put a plan B in place (McKenna maybe). I’d rather take Blight if we could establish he was fired up. At least he’d bring some flair.

BUT as I keep saying, getting the replacement is the se4cond step. The first is the assessment that you have to change because what you have won’t get what you want - which is premierships and only premierships. We don't need money, we can live very without respect and I don't care who hates us or how ruthless we are and who we have to step on to get it but we have to have ultimate success. It has been far too lean for half a century.

 

[Coin_Toss]

As far as draft picks are concerned.... Do you seriously believe that MM has a better idea for scoping talent, than actual talent scouts?

How much input has he had? Tony Shaw publicly said he never interfered with the recruiting staff.

In 2002 and 2003, excluding Heath Shaw, we weren't able to draft anyone decent and no one remains on the list. So we are effectively two years behind where we should be right now, and that hurts. I can go back to 2001, but hey, Dane Swan's not a bad find.

Perhaps Malthouse addressed the issue by appointing Derek Hine. Thankfully, Hine is a friggin genius compared to Judkins - or so we think.

 

[toommy]

Definately NOT

Mick Malthouse has led Collingwood to the worst era in its proud history

161 matches

77 Wins

84 Losses

Winning ratio 47.83%

Never before has this once proud club tolerated such a lengthy period of sub standard onfield performance under the direction of 1 coach.

Ed McGuire should hang his head in shame.Malthouse should be gone.

where were you during the tony shaw era in a cave

 

[toommy]

What difference does it make? You want me to name someone so you can criticise the choice and therefore claim MM as a better alternative? I’d rather have Longmire or another untried up and comer but the best of them would have to be decided after interviews etc and looking at credentials. The name isn’t the i9ssue though. The issue is that IMO the one we have isn’t good enough so it is dumb to stay with him. Stability is great but it has got Jack in 7 years. We have the capacity through eddies magnificent off field work to take a risk or two of we can’t find a safe bet.

no i really want you to stop boring us with all this rubbish you are spouting on about. malthouse is there so live with it or go and play golf

 

[jerry springer]

Would of liked to see MM coach for his job this year and if he failed sack him and if he suceeded sign him,its as simple as that.

If he did fail I would like to see some new blood from outside the club i.e Gary o'donnell given a chance

We had a win-win situation and we blew it

 

[iampig]

where were you during the tony shaw era in a cave

Since when does 4 years = an era in AFL coaching terms

While we are at it lets look at the great Ed McGuire era over 8 years

183 matches

81 wins

102 losses

Winning Ratio 44.26%

The worst era in Collingwoods history

"Nothing but the best"

 

[prO]

Unbelievably irrelevant and even then it is purely speculation.

On the contrary its very relevant. You asked how long fans should wait, and I gave you a counter example where fans have waited and were rewarded. If you have trouble comprehending that - you're either autistic or incredibly stupid. Lets hope for your sake its the latter.

 

[MarkT]

no i really want you to stop boring us with all this rubbish you are spouting on about. malthouse is there so live with it or go and play golf

Forget it. I’ll continuing buying my memberships and going to watch my club play. I’ll continue having an opinion and if it bores you ignore me or go talk to the cheer squad about how great all our players are. Meanwhile results are results. You be satisfied with if you want but I won’t.

 

[MarkT]

On the contrary its very relevant. You asked how long fans should wait, and I gave you a counter example where fans have waited and were rewarded. If you have trouble comprehending that - you're either autistic or incredibly stupid. Lets hope for your sake its the latter.

How? You compared a junior player’s lack of impact on titles to a coach of decades experience after playing and who has had 7 years at Collingwood and failed. MM’s job is specifically to build a premiership list and to coach premierships. Ask him or ask Eddie and I’ll be stunned if they don’t agree with that. What else is he there for? How is Jordon relevant to Collingwood?

I don’t want to dump Buckley because he’s had long enough to deliver a flag. I don’t want to axe Thomas because he was taken at pick 2 and hasn’t already delivered a flag.

 

[Timmy from Thomastown]

Can we please refrain from the "autistic" remarks?

Its quite degrading to talk that way and shows the true character of a person who resorts to such insults.

 

[toommy]

Forget it. I’ll continuing buying my memberships and going to watch my club play. I’ll continue having an opinion and if it bores you ignore me or go talk to the cheer squad about how great all our players are. Meanwhile results are results. You be satisfied with if you want but I won’t.

but there is one thing for sure i will never knock a team i'm on.unlike your good self, you rant and rave and bag your own team but when they are up and about you are the first person on the band wagon back slapping everyone down there, you really sound like a richmond supporter

 

[toommy]

Since when does 4 years = an era in AFL coaching terms

While we are at it lets look at the great Ed McGuire era over 8 years

183 matches

81 wins

102 losses

Winning Ratio 44.26%

The worst era in Collingwoods history

"Nothing but the best"

i cannot remember ed McGuire coaching.but if it wasn't for him the pies would be broke