Science/Environment Water problems... what water problems.

[nut]

The desal pant cost 4.5 billion dollars and it will produce around 250 gigalitres a year.

The flow from lake argyle in the wet season is 2500 gigalitres a day. Thats enough water for perth for 10 years. http://www.lakeargyle.com.au/statistics

The money the country has spent on desal plants, irrigation upgrades, etc..etc.. Wouldn't it be smarter to use this money and pump the water from a lake up north?

My Suggestion would be to Build a lake in the Cape country of Queensland complete with a hydro power station (green power) and Start piping the water south. Fixing Brisbane's water supply problems, Drought proofing farmers along the way to the Start of the Darling river, where the water can revitalise a decaying river, whilst relieving huge pressure from the Marray river and it's catchments and fixing Adelaides water problems.

Yes it would cost Billions... but at the time the Snowy Mountain scheme was a huge investment compared to our total economy.

I really dont understand why it hasn't been mentioned as an option or has it?

 

[Clay Davis]

It is 3000 km from Lake Argyle to Perth. It's 2000 km from Cape York to Brisbane.

Dumb idea.

 

[nut]

It is 3000 km from Lake Argyle to Perth. It's 2000 km from Cape York to Brisbane.

Dumb idea.

Dumb idea because of the cost?

The added increase in farming areas along the way and the increase in the food bowl would more than pay it off, not to mention taking pressure of our current farm lands and shifting crops north, plus we would be able to increase our total population especially in regional areas.

 

[Play by Numbers]

Mmmm really?

You can't just irrigate and hope things will grow.

Irrigation causes soil salinity problems. Water<finding or maintaining arable land.

 

[nut]

Mmmm really?

You can't just irrigate and hope things will grow.

Irrigation causes soil salinity problems. Water<finding or maintaining arable land.

There are vast areas that can be irrigated, The Carnarvon and Kunnanurra regions in WA is a good example and these areas are now vital for food production in WA.

As for Western Queensland and Northern NSW with the right control anything is possible. Not to mention guaranteeing the Farms already in need of water.

 

[Play by Numbers]

There are vast areas that can be irrigated, The Carnarvon and Kunnanurra regions in WA is a good example and these areas are now vital for food production in WA.

As for Western Queensland and Northern NSW with the right control anything is possible. Not to mention guaranteeing the Farms already in need of water.

I am not denying there is arable land in need of water but land management practices need to improve or it will not be arable for long and the benefit of what you are suggesting is disproportionately low in comparison to the cost.

The issue is not just water. The desalination plants in WA are important not just because we are gaining a new water source, but one we can control and may be able to utilise to recharge the Gangara mound.

There are other issues you have not considered. For instance where will you build your man made lake, is salinity an issue therefore turning it into a non potable water source. What about evaporation rates? What impact will the lake then have on the ecology or farmland in the area. Did you realise for instance that in the Canarvon region grazing pressures are already one of the single largest factors impacting biodiversity of local ecosystems. Managing this at current levels is already a massive challenge let alone converting large new tracts of land into pastures.

A pipeline from the north is truly, prohibitively expensive. I mean unbelievably so, though it is a nice idea.

 

[Clay Davis]

Dumb idea because of the cost?

The added increase in farming areas along the way and the increase in the food bowl would more than pay it off, not to mention taking pressure of our current farm lands and shifting crops north, plus we would be able to increase our total population especially in regional areas.

The cost would be enormous. Pumping any reasonable level of water that far would require a massive amount of energy overhead that would be far in excess of running a desalination plant.

 

[nut]

I am not denying there is arable land in need of water but land management practices need to improve or it will not be arable for long and the benefit of what you are suggesting is disproportionately low in comparison to the cost.

The issue is not just water. The desalination plants in WA are important not just because we are gaining a new water source, but one we can control and may be able to utilise to recharge the Gangara mound.

A pipeline from the north is truly, prohibitively expensive. I mean unbelievably so, though it is a nice idea.

I'm using lake Argyle to show the massive amounts of water that flows through it during the wet season and if harnessed we would never have a water shortage.
My suggestion is we should duplicate the lake to the east coast and Northern Queensland and supply the eastern states.

The question of coast? well the loss to the farming industry every year would be in the billions due to lack of water, thats the farming life in Australia, this could be reduced significantly and turn it around completely.
There would be no initial or environmental cost of a Desal plant, the ongoing cost to power a desal plant which 100 of million dollars a year or the need to build more power stations to power them.

Yes the upfront coast would be massive, but the ongoing cost would be less then that of Desal plants scattered up and down the east coast.

 

[nut]

The cost would be enormous. Pumping any reasonable level of water that far would require a massive amount of energy overhead that would be far in excess of running a desalination plant.

Yes and thats can be powered along the way by the Hydro electricity produced by the dam.

 

[Play by Numbers]

The cost would be enormous. Pumping any reasonable level of water that far would require a massive amount of energy overhead that would be far in excess of running a desalination plant.

Exactly.

Another major issue is the piping and materials needed.

Heck if it was not so expensive, our utilization of water recycling in WA would be far greater.

The plants themselves are relatively inexpensive in comparison to a desalination plant, but after public perception, the prohibitive cost of new infrastructure required makes water recycling untenable except in areas of super high usage (manufacturing, chemical processing, irrigated orchards).

Would much rather we invested more on water recycling, especially in new estates (especially parks, schools and ovals) where it is cheaper. The issue though in these circumstances is that it is either seen as being incumbent on private enterprise or not an issue for the state government.

 

[Clay Davis]

yes and thats can be powered along the way by the hydro electricity produced by the dam.

haaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa
haaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa
haaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa
haaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa
haaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa
haaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa
haaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa
haaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa
haaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa
haaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa
haaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa
haaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa
haaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa
haaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa
haaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa
haaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa
haaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa
haaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa
haaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa
haaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa
haaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa
haaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa
haaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa
haaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa

 

[nut]

Exactly.

Another major issue is the piping and materials needed.

They built a gas pipeline from Dampier to Bunbury.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dampier_to_Bunbury_Natural_Gas_Pipeline

They built a water pipe 530 kilometers long to Kalgoorlie in the 1903.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goldfields_Water_Supply_Scheme

Surley we have the resources and expertise to beable this now.

 

[Play by Numbers]

I'm using lake Argyle to show the massive amounts of water that flows through it during the wet season and if harnessed we would never have a water shortage.
My suggestion is we should duplicate the lake to the east coast and Northern Queensland and supply the eastern states.

The question of coast? well the loss to the farming industry every year would be in the billions due to lack of water, thats the farming life in Australia, this could be reduced significantly and turn it around completely.
There would be no initial or environmental cost of a Desal plant, the ongoing cost to power a desal plant which 100 of million dollars a year or the need to build more power stations to power them.

Yes the upfront coast would be massive, but the ongoing cost would be less then that of Desal plants scattered up and down the east coast.

Ahhhhhhhhhh.

Firstly soil salinity and acidity are of equivalent concern, our agricultural problems are not just drought related.

Secondly it would inflict vast ecological damage in whatever area you tried to create the lake. So yes there could be considerable initial environmental impact.

Also how are you certain a viable site could be first located then utilised.

In WA despite a few hiccups, they are not only trying to vastly improve the filtration process (which could have substantial economic benefits) but are trying to supplement power needs via renewable energy. Decreasing operating costs, bleed off economic benefits of developing new technologies and decreased environmental footprint.

It also helps our situation now, especially in regards to Perth metros precarious reliance on finite groundwater supplies, which may be permanently effected if they fall below a certain level.

I also do not think you understand how prohibitive costs will be. There will also be continuous annual costs of managing dams or lakes, pumping and maintaining the pipeline would be substantive.

In the end if we were to investmore it should be an across the board thing, not just one technology, so into developing/implementing better water management practices for farmers, awareness campaigns and increased utilisation of water recycling.

 

[Relativity]

It would make more sence to "shift" the populations to the water supply by infrastructure spending and perhaps taxation incentives.

 

[Clay Davis]

Pumping gas is less energy intensive than pumping water.

 

[nut]

haaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa
haaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa
haaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa
haaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa
haaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa
haaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa
haaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa
haaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa
haaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa
haaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa
haaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa
haaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa
haaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa
haaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa
haaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa
haaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa
haaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa
haaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa
haaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa
haaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa
haaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa
haaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa
haaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa
haaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa

... and I guess there were people laughing at the suggestions of a water pipe to Kalgoorlie in 1898 too.....

 

[nut]

It would make more sence to "shift" the populations to the water supply by infrastructure spending and perhaps taxation incentives.

I did that, but I got sick of the heat.

 

[Clay Davis]

... and I guess there were people laughing at the suggestions of a water pipe to Kalgoorlie in 1898 too.....

Pumping water using the hydro electricity generated by that water flow is like trying to move a sailboat using a fan that's attached to it.

 

[Play by Numbers]

They built a gas pipeline from Dampier to Bunbury.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dampier_to_Bunbury_Natural_Gas_Pipeline

They built a water pipe 530 kilometers long to Kalgoorlie in the 1903.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goldfields_Water_Supply_Scheme

Surley we have the resources and expertise to beable this now.

The gas pipeline helps generate enormous revenue.

And I am well aware of the Goldfields Water Supply Scheme.

What you forget is that it later became crucial for the establishment of the mining industry in the region. Or that Mundaring Weir was a catchment dam, constructed in a perfect place and not an immense man made lake. Lastly that the scale between this and what you are proposing is immensely disproportionate.

 

[nut]

Ahhhhhhhhhh.

Firstly soil salinity and acidity are of equivalent concern, our agricultural problems are not just drought related.

Secondly it would inflict vast ecological damage in whatever area you tried to create the lake. So yes there could be considerable initial environmental impact.

Also how are you certain a viable site could be first located then utilised.

In WA despite a few hiccups, they are not only trying to vastly improve the filtration process (which could have substantial economic benefits) but are trying to supplement power needs via renewable energy. Decreasing operating costs, bleed off economic benefits of developing new technologies and decreased environmental footprint.

It also helps our situation now, especially in regards to Perth metros precarious reliance on finite groundwater supplies, which may be permanently effected if they fall below a certain level.

I also do not think you understand how prohibitive costs will be. They will also be continuous annual costs of managing dams or lakes, pumping and maintaining the pipeline would be substantive.

In the end if we were to invest more more it should be an across the board thing, not just one technology, so into developing better water management practices for farmers, awareness campaigns and increased utilisation of water recycling.

Yes lake argyle had huge environmental effects, they seem to have been forgotten along with probably every dam ever built. The water can be restricted to only supply farmers in low risk area re: salinity. The main Purpose though would be to supply water to house holds... just like the Kalgoorlie pipeline.

The cost will have to absorbed by the consumer as it always has been. The benefits of an endless supply of water can still be restricted to "just" meet supply.

The population that benefits from the 530 kilometer pipe line to Kalgoorlie would be around 200 people per kilometer. I would expect the number in the 100 of thousands if they were to pipe water down from the tropics.

 

[nut]

Pumping water using the hydro electricity generated by that water flow is like trying to move a sailboat using a fan that's attached to it.

... are you being stupid? do you realise how much hydro electricty is produced from lake Argyle??

 

[Clay Davis]

... are you being stupid? do you realise how much hydro electricty is produced from lake Argyle??

You do realise that pumping that volume of water, that far, would pretty much consume ALL of that electricity, if not more?

 

[Papa G]

The gas pipeline helps generate enormous revenue.

And I am well aware of the Goldfields Water Supply Scheme.

What you forget is that it later became crucial for the establishment of the mining industry in the region. Or that Mundaring Weir was a catchment dam, constructed in a perfect place and not an immense man made lake. Lastly that the scale between this and what you are proposing is immensely disproportionate.

1898 technology Versus 2010 technology is also vastly disproportionate. Probably moreso.

 

[nut]

If we want to increase our population then we will have to secure new methods to save and produce water.

But making savings isn't going to cut it. We need huge amounts of water if we want our population to increase. I dont think Desal plants are the answer, due mainly to the extremely high amounts of power used and the added environmental impact the oceans with the brine water.

My solution includes green energy and a lower impact on the environment as a whole.

 

[nut]

You do realise that pumping that volume of water, that far, would pretty much consume ALL of that electricity, if not more?

So you are telling me that a power station that supplies power to the Kunnurra region, including the diamond mine, Kunnunarra township, Wyndam and a handful of other towns and communities couldn't run a few pumps.

It generates 200 GWH of power for you info.... seems you need some.