Roast We are Very Overrated

[Gone Critical]

It look like the masive over rating we had on this board has come off a bit. We are where we belong given how we have managed the list. We were never going to be a top 4 side this year.

I will put up my hand as someone who "overrated the list" and on that basis I am disappointed in our year so far. At the start of the season I predicted that a minimum expectation was to at least be in contention for the top 4 late in the season. We have fallen short of this. My proviso at the time was that we got a better run at injuries than we did in 2012-3. As it turns out we have got to the stage where injuries can be said to have had an effect on 2014 especially recent weeks.

Missing on Sat we had Reid, Brown, Maxwell, Ball, Sinclair, Elliott, Fasolo, Scharenberg, Freeman, Karnesis and Oxley. All are either injured or returning but not yet senior ready. Some of them would be best 22, some borderline and some who were a chance at improving and stepping up to the senior team if they had got a run at the season. Still other top sides have also missed a significant number of good players and are still above us. Think Hawks and Swans. So injuries alone are not enough of an excuse.

I look at 2013 as the year we struggled. In 2014 a lot of senior experience left the club but in essence their on field prescence had left the club already and they didn't make a significant contribution to 2013. Think Johnson, Thomas, Didak, Jolly. So 2013 was a year of inexperience, a year of 8 debutants and a lot of others who had only played a handful of games. On that basis it was reasonable I reckon to assume we could improve in 2014 as our kids had already had some exposure and the likes of Young, Fasolo, Toovey, Keefe, Beams and Ball would be over their injury problems and ready for full seasons. Maybe I have expected too much from that group of 6. Toovey has been coping a bit on the board this week, certainly had some clangers on Sat but has been good this year. We are probably cutting him no slack from the fact he has only just returned from a reco.

I am most disappointed in this season for 2 quarters. The last against the Bulldogs and the last on Sat. Both times we failed to stand up to a challenge where we had a clear advantage and win a match we needed to win. That defines our season. We should have won both those games. It is what a good side does. I am not believing fully that it is just a matter of getting a few more games into our kids and letting them replace Blair, H and Goldy for instance. That demeans the players those 3 have been for us. I like the look of a lot of our youngsters but some of them will fizzle and not become even a Blair or Goldy let alone a Lumumba.

What we really need in 2015 is Reid and Cloke to have full seasons together and the likes of Fasolo, Elliott, Langdon, Witts, Grundy, Seedsman, Williams, Keefe, Frost and Kennedy to consolidate themselves as AFL players. These guys have all shown something at AFL level.

Karnesis, Scharneburg, Freeman (both the latter have now lost a year of develoment, 2015 maybe a year of VFL consolidation) Martin and Broomhead remain the cream for me. Great if they can get up but until they show something at senior level are not what we can count on as best 22 yet.

So yeah I see missing the finals this year as a bad sign. It means we have fallen further behind the top pack and therefore it will be tougher to catch them up again. We are a better list than we have shown in 2014

 

[MarkT2]

We are a better list than we have shown in 2014

I don't think we are. When you have the number of younger players we have to play then you get these results. The reality is we let go of the players that we would need to challenge. Add Dawes, Wellingham, Shaw, a fit Thomas and Didak and we are top 4 right now. We do have potential upside with 2 unseen top 10 picks plus Broomhead & Kennedy who haven't had much impact yet. Potential is only that and we will still be at least 1 KP short even if they all come good quickly. Moore may be a good prospect too but it took Cloke 4 years and it will take Moore just as long even if he is good enough.

 

[robertg22]

I don't think we are. When you have the number of younger players we have to play then you get these results. The reality is we let go of the players that we would need to challenge. Add Dawes, Wellingham, Shaw, a fit Thomas and Didak and we are top 4 right now. We do have potential upside with 2 unseen top 10 picks plus Broomhead & Kennedy who haven't had much impact yet. Potential is only that and we will still be at least 1 KP short even if they all come good quickly. Moore may be a good prospect too but it took Cloke 4 years and it will take Moore just as long even if he is good enough.

Dawes has done nothing at Melbourne, I can't understand why people gush over him. As poor as he has been though, I tell you who has been worse - Wellingham. I've gone out of my way to watch quite a bit of him at WC and he has been deplorable, doesn't look like he is remotely interested. Seems very content just to be an AFL footballer and is going through the motions.

Heater we miss, no doubting that. But my lasting memory of him doing things like he did in my avatar is unfortunately balanced with his stupidity in the elimination final last year.

A fit Thomas? There is no such thing. He has been laughable at Carlton. He's about 20% of the player he was back in 2011 and I would be very surprised to see him ever recapture that.

Didak would be nowhere near our best team now, he hadn't really played any decent football since 2010 anyway - there's no way he would have helped us this year.

I think we've made the right decisions with list management, I don't see a premiership team with those guys added into our current mix.

 

[Luke Sicari]

I think people forget we are a very young squad. 11 of the players on Saturday had 40 games or less of experience. I am not using that as an excuse, but it needs to be taken into consideration. But I think we have showed decline in very important areas this season, with disposal efficiency being the main concern for mine. The stat pretty much sums it up.

Disposal efficiency %- Last (tied with Brisbane)

For a top 8 side, this is simply not acceptable. Too many times our players just waste possessions and chances to score. Poor decision making, poor kicking, bad handballing etc is happening way too often with this club. I don't think we get rated very highly in the media anyway. Plenty media outlets say we are where we are meant to be at this stage. But the disposal efficiency of this club needs to be cleaned up. Especially with a coach who preaches execution, it must drive Bucks crazy to watch us play sometimes. Maybe it is something with the way the team trains. Maybe they need to get out of their hydro-pools and high altitude rooms and go back to the basics and practice basic football.

 

[Gone Critical]

I don't think we are. When you have the number of younger players we have to play then you get these results. The reality is we let go of the players that we would need to challenge. Add Dawes, Wellingham, Shaw, a fit Thomas and Didak and we are top 4 right now. We do have potential upside with 2 unseen top 10 picks plus Broomhead & Kennedy who haven't had much impact yet. Potential is only that and we will still be at least 1 KP short even if they all come good quickly. Moore may be a good prospect too but it took Cloke 4 years and it will take Moore just as long even if he is good enough.

I think we have clearly come off our peak of 2010-11. We are not that team anymore. It's a matter of how far you see our fall as acceptable. Of the players who have moved on the only one we are missing is Heater. Thomas has not found his old form and Wellingham and Dawes haven't kicked on. Dids unfortunately was finished as was Jolly.

Still none of them had an influence in 2013 and our kids were younger and less experienced then. That is my concern is we are slipping further down the list when I see 2013 as being our base. Doesn't mean we can't bounce back but I think we should be a bit better this year than we are.

 

[MarkT2]

Dawes has done nothing at Melbourne, I can't understand why people gush over him. As poor as he has been though, I tell you who has been worse - Wellingham. I've gone out of my way to watch quite a bit of him at WC and he has been deplorable, doesn't look like he is remotely interested. Seems very content just to be an AFL footballer and is going through the motions.

Dawes has done at Melbourne, with limited preperation, what we need and don't have. He's done as much nothing as he did in our premiership. Meanwhile Lynch and White have actually done nothing at Collingwood. I've not heard anyone gush over him. I have herard ridiculous putting down of him from Collingwood people though. I have even heard people still claim White is better. Agree Wellingham hasn't done much. Not sure what the issue is but he's a good player. He was very good for us.

Heater we miss, no doubting that. But my lasting memory of him doing things like he did in my avatar is unfortunately balanced with his stupidity in the elimination final last year.

He has his moments - positive and negative. We need what he brings to the table very badly though.

A fit Thomas? There is no such thing. He has been laughable at Carlton. He's about 20% of the player he was back in 2011 and I would be very surprised to see him ever recapture that.

He's been better than Reid. Players get injured. Swan is also a shadow of his best. Measure Thomas after a pre season.

Didak would be nowhere near our best team now, he hadn't really played any decent football since 2010 anyway - there's no way he would have helped us this year.

He was in our best 18 last year and he still is. He was as good as anyone in the final. Poor decision to make him sub. He was exited, as with Shaw, for the wrong reasons. Our culture is not winning us any games now. It did once win us a flag though.

I think we've made the right decisions with list management, I don't see a premiership team with those guys added into our current mix.

The current mix depends on how the draft picks come on and whether Swan & co are still good enough if and when they do. The current list wouldn't be the current list is we went hard for another flag while we were in the zone.

 

[MarkT2]

I think we have clearly come off our peak of 2010-11. We are not that team anymore. It's a matter of how far you see our fall as acceptable.

We had the youngest premiership side in a long time. How a fall becomes acceptable is an interesting discussion in itself let alone how far. The fall started with the culture push, not an ageing of the list. The list revamp was then self fulfilling. The fall is the outcome.

 

[Cory]

Why did you post this on the main board? Anyone should know how much people hate Collingwood on there and the amount of idiots that post there.

 

[Gone Critical]

We had the youngest premiership side in a long time. How a fall becomes acceptable is an interesting discussion in itself let alone how far. The fall started with the culture push, not an ageing of the list. The list revamp was then self fulfilling. The fall is the outcome.

Yeah I can see your point of view. The whole coaching changeover has made assessment of that time difficult. It's a big if but if it had gone off as originally intended with MM staying on I wonder how much of the unrest could have been averted. Alos injuries played a significant part in 2012 when we were still clearly in contention mode.

Our fall is the outcome of the injuries we have contended with since 2012, the cultural issues and unrest with the coaching change as well as list changes with time. Especially being an outsider its impossible to know how much each contributed. Also unknown is how much MM was eased out by Bucks/Pert and how much MM may have whiteanted the changeover.

Still thats history now and our course is set. Despite all the above I would be more comfortable if we were imrpoving in 2014 not slipping a little.

 

[tehnoodnub]

It actually makes me feel a little bit ill when commentators still talk about us like we're a 'quality' side. I think the trouble is that so many expect us to just turn it around somehow, as if we are still the same side as we were in, say, 2012. We do have a lot of young players but I don't feel like many of them are making any real impact or looking likely.

 

[Yidaki]

Can't believe people think that Dawes, Didak, Shaw and Thomas would make us a better side. LOL. Move on people!

 

[TradeDraft]

Why did you post this on the main board? Anyone should know how much people hate Collingwood on there and the amount of idiots that post there.

Actually it is a Well Discussed thread on there. That are not as many Trolls in that thread.

 

[ipswichpies]

Sensible post. Most of us are venting & will be back to our crazy normal selves by Tuesday.
I always liked Chris Dalkin, great skills & I thought he would make it, however injuries (knee?) got the better of him.

Chris Dalkin could possibly have been an all time great at the Pies but the knee F----- him just like it did Neale Daniher at the Bombers,Dalkin was a serious talent.

 

[ipswichpies]

We had the youngest premiership side in a long time. How a fall becomes acceptable is an interesting discussion in itself let alone how far. The fall started with the culture push, not an ageing of the list. The list revamp was then self fulfilling. The fall is the outcome.

Your back beating the drum are you,for your information Malthouse,Thomas and Shaw crueled us in their final years here specifically 2011 if all 3 had been more loyal we would not had the betting fiasco Thomas would not have been reported twice and MM would of kept his mouth shut until the end of the season.

If you want to bang on about a clubs culture maybe you should take a hard look at those 3 and then try and justify that because I would think we don,t need that sort selfish CULTURE.

 

[MarkT2]

Yeh, who needs a culture that won a flag. We win 'em all the time with our backs against the wall working class culture. The issues with these guys came after the culture push and it was always going to be that way when you try and tell successful people they won't achieve success unless they change.

 

[ipswichpies]

Yeh, who needs a culture that won a flag. We win 'em all the time with our backs against the wall working class culture. The issues with these guys came after the culture push and it was always going to be that way when you try and tell successful people they won't achieve success unless they change.

My point is we could have won back to back if they had all been pulling together with no distractions but we did not and we still had your fabled culture back then.They were selfish actions then and they still are today no matter who is coaching,the issues with Shaw started well before then or have you forgotten the Didak incident which also ruined another year late in the season so please don,t tell me about the culture before the coaching change because it does not stand up under close scrutiny.

I have had my heart broken on many occasions following the Pies as you yourself have done but those 3 people cost us a genuine chance in 2011 and it still hurts today and you know why because they are so bloody hard to win and we did not give ourselves the best opportunity.

I wish you well mate but don,t come here talking about cultural change after a few losses I would much rather hear from you when we win.

I will put my hand up say "I thought we could make top 4" but I was wrong but that does not matter because like you I still love the Pies and I fully expect to get my heart broken in the future (I did on the weekend) that is a given when you follow Collingwood.

Ps I don,t want an argument with you mate life is to short to bear grudges Go the Pies.

 

[MarkT2]

My point is we could have won back to back if they had all been pulling together with no distractions but we did not and we still had your fabled culture back then.

We didn't lose because a few players had issues. MM left Reid on Hawkins, Swan was shut down by Ling and MM made no real moves in the last Q. Geelong beat us 3 from 3. We beat every other side every time we played them. How can culture or player issues explian that? The notion just doesn't make sense. We didn't have any fabled cuture. We just had a normal footy club dynamic with different types of people. It wasn't a good or bad culture it just wasn't something that needed messing with in the circumstances.

I wish you well mate but don,t come here talking about cultural change after a few losses I would much rather hear from you when we win.

I said the same thing the moment Leading Teams came to the club. This is not a reaction to a few losses.

Ps I don,t want an argument with you mate life is to short to bear grudges Go the Pies.

Happy to discuss a different point of view with a reasonable person. Fundamentally we made list changes for the wrong reasons IMO. It isn't a majority view. You are obviously entitled to yours. We want the same result.

 

[Markfs]

i think we should have stayed with the same premiership winning team... no reason to change anything.

 

[TradeDraft]

i think we should have stayed with the same premiership winning team... no reason to change anything.

If we did that, We could of done what the Saints have done. Had to go Bottom of the Ladder as we did not bring in Young Replacements like we did last 2 off-Seasons with getting more 1st Round Picks

 

[THATSGOLD]

When I watch us play now I almost sit there thinking we will be lucky to kick 2 goals in row. I can't imagine what it's like to play 4 quarters of footy anymore because it's been that long.

 

[Markfs]

If we did that, We could of done what the Saints have done. Had to go Bottom of the Ladder as we did not bring in Young Replacements like we did last 2 off-Seasons with getting more 1st Round Picks

Well thats a good point. You should be running football at St. Kilda..

 

[Vicky Park]

I was confident of us making the four some weeks ago, but not now.

But I also ask, how are we sixth on the ladder after 16 rounds? Why havent we fallen further given our appalling stats - in a league-wide context - for disposal efficiency, goal kicking accuracy, clearances, contested possessions, etc? Why are we even in the eight with the injuries we have had, and the kids, rookies and inexperienced players that line up for us each week? It doesnt add up.

 

[Wayne Swan]

Do that matter? if he is right or not? The important question is whether a team should end up with a list like GC has.... with the view to getting them a premiership quickly to promote football in queensland.

You think Gold coasts list is good? Just wait until GWS get going. They can field a complete team of top 20 picks with at least two more top 20 picks this year.

 

[Magpie Mason]

I keep saying, rebuilding is a crap excuse. coming off 2011 we were almost unbeatable. With good recruiting we should be staying competitive in the top 4. rebuilding is just an excuse to say we stuffed it up and it's going to take a few years to fix it. Top 4 draft picks not making an impact, and losing Shaw, Daisy and Wellingham who are capable of top level premiership football were part reason for our drop off. Bucks I think has got it wrong, starting with lassoing top palaver sand changing a winning game plan. we are at least 3 years off competing for a premiership, and that's if. Pendles stays.

 

[Markfs]

You think Gold coasts list is good? Just wait until GWS get going. They can field a complete team of top 20 picks with at least two more top 20 picks this year.

I know. I was just talking the other day with someone about how GWS is going to fit all those key forwards into one forward line. There are teams screaming out for one lousy key forward....but GWS and GC have got em all in recent years. I wouldnt respect either of those team's first premierships... they are just gifts.