Roast We are Very Overrated

[Krueger]

I'll put my hand up. I did. We'll be lucky to make the 8 now. Very lucky. I'm more than happy to admit when I'm wrong. Do I want Malthouse back? F**k no, but I don't think I want Bucks coaching either anymore.

I think we need to do a Freo and just take Clarkson off Hawthorn. Write a cheque the size of WHATEVER IT TAKES.

Atleast some people can admit when they are wrong unlike a few around here. Good job!

And hell YES on Clarkson! We need a hard nosed coach who will get 110% out of the players. Good media performances dont win you games.

 

[jmac70]

If I'm being honest, I don't think he keeps his job past this season. Yeah, we have injuries, but injuries are no excuse for the effort of the 22 that go out there and the 22 that went out there today still consisted of a lot of premiership players as well as just general experienced players.

Either Bucks is still REALLY struggling to get everyone on board or he's just a flat out shit coach.

TD actually had it spot on in his opening post. The third option that you have not considered is that we, as supporters, have an overrated opinion of our players. None of the following guys would get a game this year in the best 22 at Hawthorn.

William, Frost, Goldsack, Langdon, Keeffe, Lumumba, Macaffer, Young, Martin, White, Blair, Witts, Adams, Broomhead, Seedsman and Kennedy.

Some of these guys will develop into very good players, some won't. But as we stand right now this is our reality and it is why we are where we are. Sacking Buckley will not change this in the short term and may well set us further back.

 

[doodles98]

TD actually had it spot on in his opening post. The third option that you have not considered is that we, as supporters, have an overrated opinion of our players. None of the following guys would get a game this year in the best 22 at Hawthorn.

William, Frost, Goldsack, Langdon, Keeffe, Lumumba, Macaffer, Young, Martin, White, Blair, Witts, Adams, Broomhead, Seedsman and Kennedy.

Some of these guys will develop into very good players, some won't. But as we stand right now this is our reality and it is why we are where we are. Sacking Buckley will not change this in the short term and may well set us further back.

on this years output you would also add Thomas, Grundy, Swan, Ball and Toovey to that list... basically our whole team then.. hmm depressing..

 

[jmac70]

on this years output you would also add Thomas, Grundy, Swan, Ball and Toovey to that list... basically our whole team then.. hmm depressing..

Absolutely. 2015 is likely to be another year of development. The club know where they are at, and whilst there may be some changes to assistant coaches, Bucks will continue with the evolution of the team towards a list that can contend. Supporters are just going to have to be patient because no matter how much they grind their teeth it ain't gonna change anytime soon.

 

[TradeDraft]

Absolutely. 2015 is likely to be another year of development. The club know where they are at, and whilst there may be some changes to assistant coaches, Bucks will continue with the evolution of the team towards a list that can contend. Supporters are just going to have to be patient because no matter how much they grind their teeth it ain't gonna change anytime soon.

Yeah, Bucks should see this Re-Build Thru and see how it goes.

If it is Success then Awesome but a Fail then Bucks be down at Centerlink

 

[Gone Critical]

Let's look at those premiership players.

Macaffer - good season as a tagger but does not get much of the ball
Maxwell - injured
Goldsack - good role player but does not hit the scoreboard
Lumumba - reasonable season
Pendlebury - very good
Blair - average
Ball - average (limited by injury)
Brown - injured
Beams - good
Reid - injured
Sidebottom - good but missed important games
Cloke - OK but not dominant
Toovey - average (limited by injury)
Swan - average (limited by injury)

6 of the 14 have been severly affected by injury. 4 of the 14 (Caff, Sack, Blair and H) are average to ok players, perhaps only H would make it onto a top 4 team list as depth. That leaves only 4 players that have had reasonable to good seasons. IMO, the tag of premiership player is used too readily as a reason why we should be doing better.

That is what I am getting at. The decline in our "premiership group" is part of the reason for our decline. We have gone further down than I expected. 3 scenarios I see here.

1. We played to a level better than the raw talent of the group because of the coaching ability if MM and the unique (at the time) game plan he put in place. Now that group has come back to their real level.

2. The group is truly talented but has been stunted a little in recent seasons because of injury runs, internal ructions and the like.

3. The personal changes have been such that the overall talent of the players remaining is insufficient to any longer be a contending threat.

Of the 14 there is no doubt there is a core who have to remain integral to the next few seasons - Pendles, Cloke, Swan, Beams, Reid, Sidebottom. I would also want Brown, Lumumba and Toovey to continue to be best 22. I still think we need some of Caff, Goldy and Blair to reclaim their best form and not just roll over to the young guys if we are going to head back up. Ball is not an option for much longer and Maxy is gone.

That gives us 9 +/- 3 as a senior base. Of the players on board since 2010 Fasolo, Elliott and at least 1 of Grundy or Witts are vital to our structure. We have lots of possibilities beyond that 15 or so players but few have grasped the nettle yet and made themselves indispensable. We are really in a big state of flux at the moment and I think my point is we need some of our seniors to step back up not just the juniors to go past and replace them if we are to contend again.

 

[Gone Critical]

Absolutely. 2015 is likely to be another year of development. The club know where they are at, and whilst there may be some changes to assistant coaches, Bucks will continue with the evolution of the team towards a list that can contend. Supporters are just going to have to be patient because no matter how much they grind their teeth it ain't gonna change anytime soon.

I am grinding my teeth a little more because the hope of a dynasty team has been dashed. I understand people will argue some like myself overestimated the 2010-11 team and that may be so. Still I have watched Collingwood get close and close for so many years without any sustained success that that prospect is just so mouth watering. I know form bitter experience that that possibility presents itself rarely especially with an 18 team comp. ( 18 is too many for that reason but that is another argument)

I want to see another flag or 2 in my lifetime and realistically that is all I can reasonably expect. What I would love though is to see a team that I can argue was one of the great ones. That I saw a Collingwood team that was like Brissie 2001-2003, Cats 07-11, Hawks 84-91, Tigers 67-74, Carlton 68-72 or 79-82 or even WCE 92-94 and Roos 74-77 or 94-99.

Seen too many multiple flag sides that are not Collingwood which is why I have found our slide really difficult. It is making me a bit bitter and twisted at times, can't help it.i thought we were on the cusp of a great side. Bugger.

 

[MarkT2]

We had a rare chance to win 2-4 flags in a generation of players. Lots would have had to go right and most of it didn't. What shits me no end is that it predictably unfolded before my eyes as Collingwood f'd itself over yet again and egos pulled the club all over the shop. Some have gone and some remain. The sad reality is we pulled ourselves apart again. Our list management went down the wrong path to begin with and then we set apart a culture change that was not only unnecessary but destructive for our list. Our players were experienced and successful individually and as a team. They didn’t need change they needed quality management. The list didn't need renewing it needed tweaking.

Perhaps this is what happens when a membership base doesn't get or even demand an elected board position in over a decade.

 

[Gone Critical]

We had a rare chance to win 2-4 flags in a generation of players. Lots would have had to go right and most of it didn't. What shits me no end is that it predictably unfolded before my eyes as Collingwood f'd itself over yet again and egos pulled the club all over the shop. Some have gone and some remain. The sad reality is we pulled ourselves apart again. Our list management went down the wrong path to begin with and then we set apart a culture change that was not only unnecessary but destructive for our list. Our players were experienced and successful individually and as a team. They didn’t need change they needed quality management. The list didn't need renewing it needed tweaking.

Perhaps this is what happens when a membership base doesn't get or even demand an elected board position in over a decade.

Yep. We were near that as you said. A number of factors didn't work out. We did have a bad injury run. Mick I still reckon had a bit of a duty to stay and see what he had signed on for through, especially with the prospects of success there. Bucks maybe looked to change players too quickly.

We had control over some of the outcomes that we stuffed up. We have too easily accepted that we have gone from guenuine contender to out of the 8 with still a strong core list. I worry we have placed too much faith in the idea that we need a new batch of youngsters to mature before we can rise again. Too many variables in that idea to make it anywhere near fait accompli.

I hope not but there are prospects about to say we may have missed the boat and the 8+ lists who have now gone past us will not let us back through easily.
I bloody hope I am wrong.

 

[MarkT2]

We are about to lose Maxwell, Ball, Lynch, Hudson and perhaps a few others. On the back of the exits of the past few years that is a significant loss of experience and personality. If anyone thinks this won't have much impact because the players haven't had much impact this year they don't understand the important dynamics of list composition or real leadership. The arguments were made last year and they were wrong then as well. In all probability we will be too young and lacking in depth to be anywhere near the top 4 next year.

We will be aiming, based largely on hope, that we can make the 8 next year and if we have a bad run with injuries that will be a pipedream. Swan doesn't have too many years left in him at the top level. If our draft picks of the last 2 years are not seriously top end players we will struggle for a while. We shouldn't be relying on players under 21 to carry the side but the reality is that we will. Langdon, Grundy, Broomhead, Kennedy, Freeman and Sharenberg may well be very good player but if they aren't we are screwed and if they aren't quickly we will have a further dip.

We have put ourselves in a very precarious position. Hopefully the kids we have drafted will be stars but we shouldn't need them to be to be playing finals.

 

[BoxMatrix]

We will be aiming, based largely on hope, that we can make the 8 next year and if we have a bad run with injuries that will be a pipedream. Swan doesn't have too many years left in him at the top level. If our draft picks of the last 2 years are not seriously top end players we will struggle for a while. We shouldn't be relying on players under 21 to carry the side but the reality is that we will. Langdon, Grundy, Broomhead, Kennedy, Freeman and Sharenberg may well be very good player but if they aren't we are screwed and if they aren't quickly we will have a further dip.

We have put ourselves in a very precarious position. Hopefully the kids we have drafted will be stars but we shouldn't need them to be to be playing finals.

If these kids dont turn out to be any good. Buckley is as good as gone. No doubt about it...

You would think players like Langdon and Grundy will be very good, but players like Broomhead and Kennedy I'm not so sure about....

 

[Gone Critical]

If these kids dont turn out to be any good. Buckley is as good as gone. No doubt about it...

You would think players like Langdon and Grundy will be very good, but players like Broomhead and Kennedy I'm not so sure about....

I think that is a good point. Broomhead, Kennedy, Scharenberg and Freeman are all unproven. The expectation that they will just automatically come in and take over from the likes of Blair, Goldsack, Lumumba etc and be an improvement is far from set in stone. I think some of our senior players have plenty of room for improvement on what they have shown in 2014 and we need at least a number of those players to have good seasons next year to get back up. That is as important as the youngsters coming on.

Our 2010-11 players are in many cases in their prime years and we should be expecting more from them.

 

[THATSGOLD]

If we are a one trick pony side what's our trick?

 

[jmac70]

I am grinding my teeth a little more because the hope of a dynasty team has been dashed. I understand people will argue some like myself overestimated the 2010-11 team and that may be so. Still I have watched Collingwood get close and close for so many years without any sustained success that that prospect is just so mouth watering. I know form bitter experience that that possibility presents itself rarely especially with an 18 team comp. ( 18 is too many for that reason but that is another argument)

I want to see another flag or 2 in my lifetime and realistically that is all I can reasonably expect. What I would love though is to see a team that I can argue was one of the great ones. That I saw a Collingwood team that was like Brissie 2001-2003, Cats 07-11, Hawks 84-91, Tigers 67-74, Carlton 68-72 or 79-82 or even WCE 92-94 and Roos 74-77 or 94-99.

Seen too many multiple flag sides that are not Collingwood which is why I have found our slide really difficult. It is making me a bit bitter and twisted at times, can't help it.i thought we were on the cusp of a great side. Bugger.

It is frustrating no doubt about that. The side should have gone back to back in 10/11. The reason they didn't is of course a matter of debate between the pro and anti MM factions. Whatever side of the fence we are on there is no denying that the opportunity has gone. With the potential of Gold Coast and GWS it is going to be very difficult just to make the grand final over the next 5 or so years.

 

[THATSGOLD]

I agree now. Malthouse boat has sailed. The Buckley boat sunk. It's time to find a new ship. C'mon Eddie pull out the $$$. All aboard the Mark Thompson ship, or Clarkson if his health is ok.

 

[Magpie Mason]

I am grinding my teeth a little more because the hope of a dynasty team has been dashed. I understand people will argue some like myself overestimated the 2010-11 team and that may be so. Still I have watched Collingwood get close and close for so many years without any sustained success that that prospect is just so mouth watering. I know form bitter experience that that possibility presents itself rarely especially with an 18 team comp. ( 18 is too many for that reason but that is another argument)

I want to see another flag or 2 in my lifetime and realistically that is all I can reasonably expect. What I would love though is to see a team that I can argue was one of the great ones. That I saw a Collingwood team that was like Brissie 2001-2003, Cats 07-11, Hawks 84-91, Tigers 67-74, Carlton 68-72 or 79-82 or even WCE 92-94 and Roos 74-77 or 94-99.

Seen too many multiple flag sides that are not Collingwood which is why I have found our slide really difficult. It is making me a bit bitter and twisted at times, can't help it.i thought we were on the cusp of a great side. Bugger.

I am with you. My disappointment is around wanting to experience a dynasty team as well. After 2010/11 I was hoping for the same. That's why I'm critical of this rebuilding crap, I want to be in contention every year! being outside the eight sucks.

 

[Magpie Mason]

We are about to lose Maxwell, Ball, Lynch, Hudson and perhaps a few others. On the back of the exits of the past few years that is a significant loss of experience and personality. If anyone thinks this won't have much impact because the players haven't had much impact this year they don't understand the important dynamics of list composition or real leadership. The arguments were made last year and they were wrong then as well. In all probability we will be too young and lacking in depth to be anywhere near the top 4 next year.

We will be aiming, based largely on hope, that we can make the 8 next year and if we have a bad run with injuries that will be a pipedream. Swan doesn't have too many years left in him at the top level. If our draft picks of the last 2 years are not seriously top end players we will struggle for a while. We shouldn't be relying on players under 21 to carry the side but the reality is that we will. Langdon, Grundy, Broomhead, Kennedy, Freeman and Sharenberg may well be very good player but if they aren't we are screwed and if they aren't quickly we will have a further dip.

We have put ourselves in a very precarious position. Hopefully the kids we have drafted will be stars but we shouldn't need them to be to be playing finals.

good comments. Are we sure that Swanny will go on next year?