Roast We don't have any True KPF's

[jackcass]

As some have pointed out we haven't had a true KPF since Cloke. Yet we almost snagged a flag without one, Sides has 20 possies we win that cup regardless if we have a KPF or not.

The thing to remember at our best it's our system that does it for us, not the list. If we play like 2019 again KPF or not we ain't takin the cup, play like we did in 2018 and we'll likely be in it and maybe win it. KPF or not.

We were unpredictable and had the opp guessing in our F50, arguably the most dangerous forward set up for that year and no KPF.

As much as everyone points out Tay's poor kicking he is key if we wanna play the way that suits us best. We should not be a personnel reliant team but with Adams I'll make an exception, unless Wills or Sier can rise to that level, that's likely not to be in time.

We are not reliant on a KPF, a team like wc and giants is. IF we actually did get a true KPF to replace Cloke in the immediate term than right now our structure looks different and we don't fit everyone in the cap.

I agree with some of what you're saying but it is very much personnel driven. The loss of Stevo and Cox was what changed that F50 dynamic and the way we played, not some deliberate change in system.

 

[Carringbush2010]

I agree with some of what you're saying but it is very much personnel driven. The loss of Stevo and Cox was what changed that F50 dynamic and the way we played, not some deliberate change in system.

The loss of Stevo and Cox was only part of the reason, trying to control transition backfired badly and that IMO is the main we reason we lost our mojo, took away opportunities for our forward structure. This team was noted as a role for role type team the year previous from the media and the public.

IMO we are very much a system team, sure some of our personnel are not readily role for role replaceable (Adams one of them) but I'd argue we are not personnel reliant as other teams probably most of them IF we play the way we should.

Play the way we should like in 2018 then we are not KPF reliant, a good KPF would be a bonus not a necessity.

 

[Quicky]

Any season now Ben Reid will save the day as the true KPF. Any season now lol

#buckleylogic

Ben Reid - He's still good

 

[Robroy22]

Ben Reid - He's still good

I remember when Reidy had hair....and could kick...and mark and everything. OOOps just me being nostalgic again!

 

[Jasper84]

premature roasting?

There's been a pattern forming for a while now where bar Cox in the 2018 prelim, our KPF have failed to fire in finals. Whereas the top KPF from opposition teams regularly have had an impact in the big games. 5 of the last 6 finals in 2019 the leading goal scorer was a key forward. None of which were one of ours. Even our win against the cats in the QF (Elliott 2 goals) was skewed by Hawkins uncharacteristically kicking 4 behinds.

 

[legendstatus]

Slick proper delivery to our forwards might solve the KPF issues


On iPhone using BigFooty.com mobile app

 

[HFF]

Slick proper delivery to our forwards might solve the KPF issues


On iPhone using BigFooty.com mobile app

How slick must the delivery be for Cox to get on the end of it?
He cannot find any footy on the lead---and leading is the easiest and most simple way to get a touch as a key forward.

So not only can he not find the footy on the lead-- but he only then takes one or two contested marks a game anyway when he is the tallest person on the field---and we are shifting blame to the delivery needing to be slicker?

I'm sorry- but the excuses constantly being made up are laughable.

Our other forwards don't seem to struggle to get on the end of passes---be it Elliott, JDG, Stephenson, Mihocek, WHE etc.

 

[legendstatus]

How slick must the delivery be for Cox to get on the end of it?
He cannot find any footy on the lead---and leading is the easiest and most simple way to get a touch as a key forward.

So not only can he not find the footy on the lead-- but he only then takes one or two contested marks a game anyway when he is the tallest person on the field---and we are shifting blame to the delivery needing to be slicker?

I'm sorry- but the excuses constantly being made up are laughable.

Our other forwards don't seem to struggle to get on the end of passes---be it Elliott, JDG, Stephenson, Mihocek, WHE etc.

So slick forward movement to those guys? Never said anything about Cox..



On iPhone using BigFooty.com mobile app

 

[jackcass]

The loss of Stevo and Cox was only part of the reason, trying to control transition backfired badly and that IMO is the main we reason we lost our mojo, took away opportunities for our forward structure. This team was noted as a role for role type team the year previous from the media and the public.

IMO we are very much a system team, sure some of our personnel are not readily role for role replaceable (Adams one of them) but I'd argue we are not personnel reliant as other teams probably most of them IF we play the way we should.

Play the way we should like in 2018 then we are not KPF reliant, a good KPF would be a bonus not a necessity.

Every team is a system team. Every team tries to control the transition. Every team is personnel reliant. Spin it any way you want it, it was the loss of personnel that changed our performance. Cox, Stevo, Beams, Langdon etc etc... their absence changes the way we play, naive to think it doesn't.

 

[Carringbush2010]

Every team is a system team. Every team tries to control the transition. Every team is personnel reliant. Spin it any way you want it, it was the loss of personnel that changed our performance. Cox, Stevo, Beams, Langdon etc etc... their absence changes the way we play, naive to think it doesn't.

Going the other way, how is it we had near zero list change from 2017 to a kick away from a flag in one year? How did we do that relying on star personnel?

Of course every team has a system and do rely on personnel, they vary. We certainly are not 'reliant' like a wc are and the way we play is very very different.

It wasn't 'just' the loss of those guys that hampered us, the way we play best does not require all of our stellar players on the list. We're at best a team that suffocates the opposition and then has space on the outside. That was our one wood that saw us go from no names to a GF - not star players.

They became stars because of the development. Naive to think otherwise.

 

[jackcass]

Going the other way, how is it we had near zero list change from 2017 to a kick away from a flag in one year? How did we do that relying on star personnel?

Of course every team has a system and do rely on personnel, they vary. We certainly are not 'reliant' like a wc are and the way we play is very very different.

It wasn't 'just' the loss of those guys that hampered us, the way we play best does not require all of our stellar players on the list. We're at best a team that suffocates the opposition and then has space on the outside. That was our one wood that saw us go from no names to a GF - not star players.

They became stars because of the development. Naive to think otherwise.

That's just a couple of ridiculous and irrelevant tangents.

You advocate that it's systems not personnel. I say personnel play a key role in delivering those "systems". Can't replace a (for instance) Pendlebury with a Daicos or a Rantall or a Tyler Brown or a Bianco and expect the same outcomes or to deliver as they do with Pendles in the side. That's the discussion. I'm still waiting for you to explain how I'm wrong and no end of irrelevant tangents or shifting of goal posts will change that.

 

[Carringbush2010]

That's just a couple of ridiculous and irrelevant tangents.

You advocate that it's systems not personnel. I say personnel play a key role in delivering those "systems". Can't replace a (for instance) Pendlebury with a Daicos or a Rantall or a Tyler Brown or a Bianco and expect the same outcomes or to deliver as they do with Pendles in the side. That's the discussion. I'm still waiting for you to explain how I'm wrong and no end of irrelevant tangents or shifting of goal posts will change that.

Ah Jack, don't ever change.

How about you put your objective glasses on for a change.

Of course we rely on personnel, no personnel no footy team. No need to mark my posts so literally - that's the impression you give anyway.

If you want to go down the path of rigid absolutes then fine, here it is.

We DON'T have the same amount of quality players like wc or gws. Simple as that.

So how is it we are contention alongside these teams, personnel right? That's your view not mine, we match any team in the competition for personnel

My take is every AFL listed player is an absolute gun but very many are viewed as spuds in the public eye.

How we went from the wastepile in 17 to contenders in 18 wasn't on the back player shopping in the off season it was on the back of changing the way we play and coaching and developing the very same s**t players to play to their strengths and the way the panel wanted them to play.

In what universe did this not happen Jack?

 

[jackcass]

Ah Jack, don't ever change.

How about you put your objective glasses on for a change.

Of course we rely on personnel, no personnel no footy team. No need to mark my posts so literally - that's the impression you give anyway.

If you want to go down the path of rigid absolutes then fine, here it is.

We DON'T have the same amount of quality players like wc or gws. Simple as that.

So how is it we are contention alongside these teams, personnel right? That's your view not mine, we match any team in the competition for personnel

My take is every AFL listed player is an absolute gun but very many are viewed as spuds in the public eye.

How we went from the wastepile in 17 to contenders in 18 wasn't on the back player shopping in the off season it was on the back of changing the way we play and coaching and developing the very same s**t players to play to their strengths and the way the panel wanted them to play.

In what universe did this not happen Jack?

Really? Exactly what measure are you using as the basis for your apparent certainty?

But I digress. Again, you're shifting the discussion. You said:

The thing to remember at our best it's our system that does it for us, not the list. If we play like 2019 again KPF or not we ain't takin the cup, play like we did in 2018 and we'll likely be in it and maybe win it. KPF or not.

We were unpredictable and had the opp guessing in our F50, arguably the most dangerous forward set up for that year and no KPF.

To which I replied:

I agree with some of what you're saying but it is very much personnel driven. The loss of Stevo and Cox was what changed that F50 dynamic and the way we played, not some deliberate change in system.

You've offered nothing to counter what I said other than some oblique ramblings and irrelevant tangents.

Oh, and how we went from also-rans in 2017 to contenders in 2018 was very much personnel driven, keeping key personnel on the park playing together and building chemistry, allowing the transition of the Blair, Smith and Fasolo types out of the team.

Oh, and the 2 additions that off-season you seem to conveniently overlook or underplay were Stephenson and Mihocek. They seemed to have a significant impact with Stevo playing every game and Checkers not missing a beat after debuting in round 11, or about when our form consolidated and the team stabilised.

 

[Carringbush2010]

Really? Exactly what measure are you using as the basis for your apparent certainty?

But I digress. Again, you're shifting the discussion. You said:



To which I replied:



You've offered nothing to counter what I said other than some oblique ramblings and irrelevant tangents.

Oh, and how we went from also-rans in 2017 to contenders in 2018 was very much personnel driven, keeping key personnel on the park playing together and building chemistry, allowing the transition of the Blair, Smith and Fasolo types out of the team.

Oh, and the 2 additions that off-season you seem to conveniently overlook or underplay were Stephenson and Mihocek. They seemed to have a significant impact with Stevo playing every game and Checkers not missing a beat after debuting in round 11, or about when our form consolidated and the team stabilised.

Again, you're taking my posts in an endth degree.

All I'm saying from the start, we can't afford to play like last year. We need to play like the year before. We didn't a true KPF then and yet well on the right side of 100%

It seems we agree and you just want argue with me, as you said:

'Oh, and how we went from also-rans in 2017 to contenders in 2018 was very much personnel driven, keeping key personnel on the park playing together and building chemistry, allowing the transition of the Blair, Smith and Fasolo types out of the team.'

How is that very much personnel drive? It's a combination of the personnel you have and getting the best out of it just as stated in the bolded. Not just because Stevo, Mihocek or any other fine talent you want to bring up.

But nooooo unless it's the absolute correct wording to your liking you wanna pick an argument with me.

Would this be better for you? 'It's clearly personnel driven in a combination of good coaching, development and culture' Is that better now?

Lie down and have a cuppa mate.

 

[Durzo]

Just a quick note. Per game in 2019 Cox averaged the 9th most contested marks per game. 2018 he averaged the third most.

He is a better option than people realise.

 

[Jasper84]

Just a quick note. Per game in 2019 Cox averaged the 9th most contested marks per game. 2018 he averaged the third most.

He is a better option than people realise.

View attachment 837573

View attachment 837574

Starting to think that contested mark average really isn't a great measure for KPF performance. Cox for example averages 2 a game, but only 1.4 goals per game and 3.6 score involvements. Darling averages less contested marks but 2.5 goals a game and 6 score involvements.

Goals and score involvements should be the true metric of a good forward over marks, especially when 1 of those contested marks is usually taken from a bail out kick out of defence.

 

[TKiL]

Slick proper delivery to our forwards might solve the KPF issues
On iPhone using BigFooty.com mobile app

don't hold your breath waiting

 

[jackcass]

Again, you're taking my posts in an endth degree.

All I'm saying from the start, we can't afford to play like last year. We need to play like the year before. We didn't a true KPF then and yet well on the right side of 100%

It seems we agree and you just want argue with me, as you said:

'Oh, and how we went from also-rans in 2017 to contenders in 2018 was very much personnel driven, keeping key personnel on the park playing together and building chemistry, allowing the transition of the Blair, Smith and Fasolo types out of the team.'

How is that very much personnel drive? It's a combination of the personnel you have and getting the best out of it just as stated in the bolded. Not just because Stevo, Mihocek or any other fine talent you want to bring up.

But nooooo unless it's the absolute correct wording to your liking you wanna pick an argument with me.

Would this be better for you? 'It's clearly personnel driven in a combination of good coaching, development and culture' Is that better now?

Lie down and have a cuppa mate.

Gee, was it the "I agree with some of what you're saying...." of my opening post that gave that away....

 

[Carringbush2010]

Gee, was it the "I agree with some of what you're saying...." of my opening post that gave that away....

Then why the it's personnel not system argument?

 

[The Royal Sampler]

Just a quick note. Per game in 2019 Cox averaged the 9th most contested marks per game. 2018 he averaged the third most.

He is a better option than people realise.

View attachment 837573

He’s 211cm, so taking contested marks is an absolute must. He’s not going to win much ball on the ground, and he can’t reach the goals from beyond 40m.

 

[Aussie pie]

Then he not doing a Good Job

We have the best ruckman in the league, he can’t be doing to bad a job.

 

[Baltimore Jack]

Ah Jack, don't ever change.

How about you put your objective glasses on for a change.

Of course we rely on personnel, no personnel no footy team. No need to mark my posts so literally - that's the impression you give anyway.

If you want to go down the path of rigid absolutes then fine, here it is.

We DON'T have the same amount of quality players like wc or gws. Simple as that.

So how is it we are contention alongside these teams, personnel right? That's your view not mine, we match any team in the competition for personnel

My take is every AFL listed player is an absolute gun but very many are viewed as spuds in the public eye.

How we went from the wastepile in 17 to contenders in 18 wasn't on the back player shopping in the off season it was on the back of changing the way we play and coaching and developing the very same s**t players to play to their strengths and the way the panel wanted them to play.

In what universe did this not happen Jack?

You talk about being objective then deliver a heap of subjective opinions

 

[Durzo]

Starting to think that contested mark average really isn't a great measure for KPF performance. Cox for example averages 2 a game, but only 1.4 goals per game and 3.6 score involvements. Darling averages less contested marks but 2.5 goals a game and 6 score involvements.

Goals and score involvements should be the true metric of a good forward over marks, especially when 1 of those contested marks is usually taken from a bail out kick out of defence.

I was just raising this point for the ones that say he cant mark the ball. That's what he is there for. Either that or ensure he is not out marked which doesn't happen.

 

[jackcass]

Then why the it's personnel not system argument?

I've never said that. I've said personnel play a significant part which you seem hell bent on disagreeing with despite the evidence being indisputable.

 

[jackcass]

He’s 211cm, so taking contested marks is an absolute must. He’s not going to win much ball on the ground, and he can’t reach the goals from beyond 40m.

Actually, he can. For some unknown reason though he seems more intent on using more measured just make the distance type kicks from whatever the distance rather than kicking through the footy, and they all too frequently fall short.