List Mgmt. What do we do in the off season re. our list?

[M Malice]

Are you happy with the state of our list? Should we be bold this off season?
Regardless of whether leppa is coach or not? I would say yes.

Our form this year has been totally unacceptable, we have been a laughing stock and our form particularly at home over the last few months has tipped me over the edge. On field is certainly not our only issue and there are some reasons for our 2-16 record ie. youth, but the manner of the defeats is very concerning.

Here is our complete list and what I would look at doing with it based on form and/or potential and/or BF media speculation.

Desperate to keep/Un-Tradable- Reuben william, Eric Hipwood, Josh Schache, Sam Skinner, Ben Keays, Rhys Matheison, Harris Andrews, Billy Evans, Jaden McGrath, Liam Dawson, Josh Clayton, Hugh Beasley, Archie Smith, Jared Jansen, Tom Cutler, Sam Mayes, Jonathan Freeman, Allen Christensen, Dayne Beams, Mitch Robinson, Dayne Zorko.

Tradable but happy to keep. See how their form goes next year or two- Matthew Hammellman, Darcy Gardner, Daniel McStay, Nick Robertson, Ryan Harwood, Ryan Bastinac, Tom Bell, Michael Close, Josh Walker, Marco Paparone, Rohan Bewick.

50/50 ??- Cian Hanley (need to see what he can do), Ryan Lester (not a fan too slow but he is going no where), Daniel Rich (hardest one to decide, brilliant in form but is he consistent enough? I would assume he gets us very good value with a trade).

De- List- Josh McGuinness, Josh Watts, Trent West, Jackson Paine, Daniel Merrett, Claye Beams,

Tradable, with currency and what i would consider a fair trade-

Tom Rockliff- pick 5-12 range +/or player. eg. st.kilda, pick 9 + Dylan Roberton.
Pearce Hanley- pick 5-20 range +/or player eg. GWS, pick 17 + Tim Mohr.
Stefan Martin- pick 20-30 range +/or player eg. bulldogs, pick 30 + Jared Witts (3 way trade).
Lewis Taylor- pick 25-40 range +/or player eg. geelong, pick 38 + Nathan Vardy.
Josh Green- pick 30-45 range +/or player eg. richmond, pick 42 or David Astbury.

Too radical? Not radical enough?

 

[L Dizz]

Are you happy with the state of our list? Should we be bold this off season?
Regardless of whether leppa is coach or not? I would say yes.

Our form this year has been totally unacceptable, we have been a laughing stock and our form particularly at home over the last few months has tipped me over the edge. On field is certainly not our only issue and there are some reasons for our 2-16 record ie. youth, but the manner of the defeats is very concerning.

Here is our complete list and what I would look at doing with it based on form and/or potential and/or BF media speculation.

Desperate to keep/Un-Tradable- Reuben william, Eric Hipwood, Josh Schache, Sam Skinner, Ben Keays, Rhys Matheison, Harris Andrews, Billy Evans, Jaden McGrath, Liam Dawson, Josh Clayton, Hugh Beasley, Archie Smith, Jared Jansen, Tom Cutler, Sam Mayes, Jonathan Freeman, Allen Christensen, Dayne Beams, Mitch Robinson, Dayne Zorko.

Tradable but happy to keep. See how their form goes next year or two- Matthew Hammellman, Darcy Gardner, Daniel McStay, Nick Robertson, Ryan Harwood, Ryan Bastinac, Tom Bell, Michael Close, Josh Walker, Marco Paparone, Rohan Bewick.

50/50 ??- Cian Hanley (need to see what he can do), Ryan Lester (not a fan too slow but he is going no where), Daniel Rich (hardest one to decide, brilliant in form but is he consistent enough? I would assume he gets us very good value with a trade).

De- List- Josh McGuinness, Josh Watts, Trent West, Jackson Paine, Daniel Merrett, Claye Beams,

Tradable, with currency and what i would consider a fair trade-

Tom Rockliff- pick 5-12 range +/or player. eg. st.kilda, pick 9 + Dylan Roberton.
Pearce Hanley- pick 5-20 range +/or player eg. GWS, pick 17 + Tim Mohr.
Stefan Martin- pick 20-30 range +/or player eg. bulldogs, pick 30 + Jared Witts (3 way trade).
Lewis Taylor- pick 25-40 range +/or player eg. geelong, pick 38 + Nathan Vardy.
Josh Green- pick 30-45 range +/or player eg. richmond, pick 42 or David Astbury.

Too radical? Not radical enough?

We can't de-list Claye Beams as he still has a year to run on his contract. Although we could move him back to the rookie list if we make space.

Agree with the rest of the de-listings (plus Clarke), although I'd keep West on the rookie list as a mature back up in case we get injuries.

I'd probably let Beasley and Evans from the rookie list go too. While they've shown some signs, realistically they're a long way back in the pecking order, and without moving some of those guys on, we're pretty limited with list spots to use at the draft.

 

[M Malice]

We can't de-list Claye Beams as he still has a year to run on his contract. Although we could move him back to the rookie list if we make space.

Agree with the rest of the de-listings (plus Clarke), although I'd keep West on the rookie list as a mature back up in case we get injuries.

I'd probably let Beasley and Evans from the rookie list go too. While they've shown some signs, realistically they're a long way back in the pecking order, and without moving some of those guys on, we're pretty limited with list spots to use at the draft.

thanks for the tip on c.beams contract status, should have checked was going from memory.

i would also keep west if we do not get another relatively experienced ruckman in to replace him. eg. jared witts, who may be looking for an opportunity elsewhere.

beasley and evans IMO have shown enough from my viewing of the seniors and some NEAFL games in conjunction with their youth too be persevered with for at least another year, although i wouldn't be overly concerned if they were moved on. should probably have been in the "tradable but happy to keep list" above.

 

[Jivlain]

I'd keep Paine, on the rookie list. His leadership as NEAFL captain is worth another contract, even if his seniors career is done.

 

[Milux]

Actually this year id like to see little changes. There is some obvious ones but i wouldnt go too radical.

For me ill be backing our senior players in. Regain form. Regain fitness. Find some continuity.

Coaches need an overhual. Love blacky. But his structures or lack thereof are letting us down. Hudson as a forwards/ruck coach? What a joke.

Hopefully this cash injection from the afl will help afford us some decent coaches.

 

[M Malice]

Actually this year id like to see little changes. There is some obvious ones but i wouldnt go too radical.

For me ill be backing our senior players in. Regain form. Regain fitness. Find some continuity.

Coaches need an overhual. Love blacky. But his structures or lack thereof are letting us down. Hudson as a forwards/ruck coach? What a joke.

Hopefully this cash injection from the afl will help afford us some decent coaches.

2 months ago i would have agreed with you.

 

[Milux]

2 months ago i would have agreed with you.

Whats changed? Players are still injured. Working harder then ever to overcome the affects of injuries.

 

[royboys4eva]

We need to retain Hugh Beasley. We are devoid of key defenders and he may turn out to be decent. He hasn't really had a good run at it this year with injuries. I would give him another year at least and see what he can offer.

 

[M Malice]

Whats changed? Players are still injured. Working harder then ever to overcome the affects of injuries.

have just thought about it a bit more deeply.

1) the average of 145 points against in the last 6 home games is a deplorable statistic.

2) our percentage and defense is getting worse, with a better injury list this year than last.
2014- 69.3% pts. against 2212. 2015- 67.5% pts. against 2306. 2016- 63.2% pts. against 2310 (so far) i think the 2106 figures are only going to get worse.

3) we are IMO in desperate need of outside class/pace/x-factor players or we are going nowhere. the only one we have with some of these traits is zorko and maybe cutler has the potential to be that type of player. hanley had it but he has dropped off a cliff. i actually tipped him to win our B&F and make AA in our lions board poll at the start of the year. we need a couple of these types and an experienced key defender or two and to do this you will have to give something up that has currency.

4) we just look rudderless out there on the field, i am struggling to see hope apart from the likes of hipwood, schache, andrews, matheison, keays, mayes, d.beams, christensen, robinson, zorko and a couple of others under this group. have we got the right structure/culture/coaching group/leaders around these players to build toward a sustainable run at consistent top 4 finishes? that is the 64 billion dollar question for me.

 

[winged1]

I wouldnt delist Paine, he is coming off a pretty bad injury and could still have some currency. Still young.

Unless C.Beams can get his body right and get some speed back, I would think he is in trouble (not withstanding his contract).

I wouldnt be trading Gardner, Hammelmann or Close at this point in time and a lot of the others (in that group) were getting regular games before injury (Harwood, Paps)


I think we do need to be bold though and for mine Rockliff, Rich, Hanley, Lester, Green, Taylor and Martin need to be considered to see what we could get. I am not suggesting we trade all of them, but certainly a few from that group need to go, which might lead to some behavioral changes in some others (ie when they see nobody is "untouchable").

 

[Ironmonger]

Actually this year id like to see little changes. There is some obvious ones but i wouldnt go too radical.

For me ill be backing our senior players in. Regain form. Regain fitness. Find some continuity.

Coaches need an overhual. Love blacky. But his structures or lack thereof are letting us down. Hudson as a forwards/ruck coach? What a joke.

Hopefully this cash injection from the afl will help afford us some decent coaches.

For me there are three strong arguments against a significant list overhaul:

We seem to be already suffering from too much list turnover.
Being such an unattractive destination right now we're unlikely to attract players of the same sort of quality that we'd lose.
New coaching staff might be able to get more out of the players than the current staff. They should get that chance.

 

[jjami15]

I think we do need to be bold though and for mine Rockliff, Rich, Hanley, Lester, Green, Taylor and Martin need to be considered to see what we could get. I am not suggesting we trade all of them, but certainly a few from that group need to go, which might lead to some behavioral changes in some others (ie when they see nobody is "untouchable").

The group that you have mentioned is the exact group that has either value or looks likely to leave. As stated not all have to go but four at most.

For me there are three strong arguments against a significant list overhaul:

We seem to be already suffering from too much list turnover.
Being such an unattractive destination right now we're unlikely to attract players of the same sort of quality that we'd lose.
New coaching staff might be able to get more out of the players than the current staff. They should get that chance.

Point 1 - from this turnover we have the makings of a good spine and building of a future team. Further turnover adds to this.
Point 2 - wouldn't be looking for elite players as they'll cost too much and those picks should go to building future team
Point 3 - no and no for me, this mob (players) have dictated too much for me and as much as there needs to be a change in the coaching ranks so does from the playing group.

 

[Milux]

have just thought about it a bit more deeply.

1) the average of 145 points against in the last 6 home games is a deplorable statistic.

2) our percentage and defense is getting worse, with a better injury list this year than last.
2014- 69.3% pts. against 2212. 2015- 67.5% pts. against 2306. 2016- 63.2% pts. against 2310 (so far) i think the 2106 figures are only going to get worse.

3) we are IMO in desperate need of outside class/pace/x-factor players or we are going nowhere. the only one we have with some of these traits is zorko and maybe cutler has the potential to be that type of player. hanley had it but he has dropped off a cliff. i actually tipped him to win our B&F and make AA in our lions board poll at the start of the year. we need a couple of these types and an experienced key defender or two and to do this you will have to give something up that has currency.

4) we just look rudderless out there on the field, i am struggling to see hope apart from the likes of hipwood, schache, andrews, matheison, keays, mayes, d.beams, christensen, robinson, zorko and a couple of others under this group. have we got the right structure/culture/coaching group/leaders around these players to build toward a sustainable run at consistent top 4 finishes? that is the 64 billion dollar question for me.

Christenson and beams are huge outs in a sense of %. The amount of times they either get the ball moving forward or stop it going further back would be enough to drop those %s down. Not saying they will win us more games but they would go along way to stemming the bleeding.

Justin Clarke is a huge loss. Again wont win us games but would help heaps.

Injuries to key personel kills with a young list.

Noticed u have mcstay in the tradeable segment. He is a must keep for mine. Can play both ends. Hopefully consistency comes.

 

[Milux]

The group that you have mentioned is the exact group that has either value or looks likely to leave. As stated not all have to go but four at most.

Point 1 - from this turnover we have the makings of a good spine and building of a future team. Further turnover adds to this.
Point 2 - wouldn't be looking for elite players as they'll cost too much and those picks should go to building future team
Point 3 - no and no for me, this mob (players) have dictated too much for me and as much as there needs to be a change in the coaching ranks so does from the playing group.

Our spine is already looking good. Really just need to pick the best KPD in this draft and go from there. No need for 4 of out better playrrs to go. Id hope for only 1. Not sure who i would want though.

 

[M Malice]

Christenson and beams are huge outs in a sense of %. The amount of times they either get the ball moving forward or stop it going further back would be enough to drop those %s down. Not saying they will win us more games but they would go along way to stemming the bleeding.

Justin Clarke is a huge loss. Again wont win us games but would help heaps.

Injuries to key personel kills with a young list.

Noticed u have mcstay in the tradeable segment. He is a must keep for mine. Can play both ends. Hopefully consistency comes.

yep, i was saying much the same thing but it has now been 3 years and 62 games for 13 wins and 6 wins in the last 42 games.

on McStay, i am happy to keep him although the jury is very much still out. has a great highlight reel but has he got what it takes to be a consistent performer at AFL level. hope he doesn't turn into another "shows promise/potential player" eg. j.brennan, r.hopper, j.sherman, j.roe, a.cornelius.

 

[Ironmonger]

The group that you have mentioned is the exact group that has either value or looks likely to leave. As stated not all have to go but four at most.

Point 1 - from this turnover we have the makings of a good spine and building of a future team. Further turnover adds to this.
Point 2 - wouldn't be looking for elite players as they'll cost too much and those picks should go to building future team
Point 3 - no and no for me, this mob (players) have dictated too much for me and as much as there needs to be a change in the coaching ranks so does from the playing group.

I agree with almost none of this, sadly. I'll pick up on that third point alone because I've seen it said quite a lot on this forum:

Something like two-thirds of the list has been turned over under Leppitsch. There has already been a huge amount of change in the playing group.

The idea that the players are dictating to the coaches too much has become a somewhat popular view, but the impression I get is that Leppitsch is actually rather single-minded, even autocratic. If he's taking advice from senior players on tactics and individual roles, then great - that's what should happen, but I don't see any evidence that he's being forced to do anything, and I doubt he even could be forced to do anything.

 

[MacMum]

Actually this year id like to see little changes. There is some obvious ones but i wouldnt go too radical.

For me ill be backing our senior players in. Regain form. Regain fitness. Find some continuity.

Coaches need an overhual. Love blacky. But his structures or lack thereof are letting us down. Hudson as a forwards/ruck coach? What a joke.

Hopefully this cash injection from the afl will help afford us some decent coaches.

Agree

 

[a mayes ing]

I agree with almost none of this, sadly. I'll pick up on that third point alone because I've seen it said quite a lot on this forum:

Something like two-thirds of the list has been turned over under Leppitsch. There has already been a huge amount of change in the playing group.

The idea that the players are dictating to the coaches too much has become a somewhat popular view, but the impression I get is that Leppitsch is actually rather single-minded, even autocratic. If he's taking advice from senior players on tactics and individual roles, then great - that's what should happen, but I don't see any evidence that he's being forced to do anything, and I doubt he even could be forced to do anything.

There was an article last year iirc, where Leppa was saying he had this gameplan he started with (slow up the wings, remember that?) and the playing group came to him and said that this isn't how we work well, that they work better going fast down the middle etc. He basically said that he had to change his gameplan based on the playing group.

 

[M Malice]

The idea that the players are dictating to the coaches too much has become a somewhat popular view, but the impression I get is that Leppitsch is actually rather single-minded, even autocratic. If he's taking advice from senior players on tactics and individual roles, then great - that's what should happen, but I don't see any evidence that he's being forced to do anything, and I doubt he even could be forced to do anything.

it has been reported widely and confirmed by leppa that he changed the game plan to a "run and gun" style after a player led suggestion.

i would assume that when leppa applied for the job he would have outlined his plans for the club eg. his assessment of our list at the time and what route he would like to go down ie. complete list rebuild. an outline re how he wanted the game to be played ie. game structure.

changing game structure is a pretty big power play by the leaders of the club IMO. i also don't think any of the leaders at the club at the time had built up enough cred for such a move.

 

[Ironmonger]

There was an article last year iirc, where Leppa was saying he had this gameplan he started with (slow up the wings, remember that?) and the playing group came to him and said that this isn't how we work well, that they work better going fast down the middle etc. He basically said that he had to change his gameplan based on the playing group.

it has been reported widely and confirmed by leppa that he changed the game plan to a "run and gun" style after a player led suggestion.

i would assume that when leppa applied for the job he would have outlined his plans for the club eg. his assessment of our list at the time and what route he would like to go down ie. complete list rebuild. an outline re how he wanted the game to be played ie. game structure.

changing game structure is a pretty big power play by the leaders of the club IMO. i also don't think any of the leaders at the club at the time had built up enough cred for such a move.

I can't remember the article you're talking about, but your descriptions of it don't sound like the players dictating a strategy to Leppa.

As I said, it's entirely appropriate that he take their suggestions into account.

 

[SizeMatters]

No more drafting KPF, KPD and Rucks for us for a while IMO. Could do with a mature KPD and Ruck that can be serviceable for 2-3 years through trade/FA though. As for draft needs we really need a lead up forward, small forward (if Green and Taylor leave), maybe a lock down defender and the rest midfielder. Just lots of mids really.

 

[M Malice]

As I said, it's entirely appropriate that he take their suggestions into account.

agree, but i think changing the game plan is a little bit more than a tweak of the game plan which would be an appropriate level of player involvement IMO.

now if it came from players like hodge/lewis/mitchell/burgoyne or enright/selwood/bartel/taylor that might carry a bit more weight. a group of players coming to a 2nd year coach suggesting a change of game plan is a bit much.

 

[13Beast]

As for draft needs we really need a lead up forward, small forward (if Green and Taylor leave), maybe a lock down defender and the rest midfielder. Just lots of mids really.

Acquiring Ainsworth, Parfitt and SPS this draft would tick a lot of those boxes. All very damaging players who can play forward or through the middle.

 

[davemc_lions]

I look at top8 sides see if we can grab a more experienced backman from somewhere.. Even someone with a bigger body.
Need a on field leader or two or three as well

Some sides might want to get rid of someone close to 30 or someone drafted a few years ago and struggling to get a game in a side like the Hawks.

 

[Bucking Beads]

I really don't know. We've got plenty of young talent but we are in need of some elite midfielders coming through. I don't want to see us get younger but I think that will happen.