What does Clarke need to do...

[Maddhew]

Credit to him for digging us out of a hole both times in Sydney and Adelaide but it doesn't mean those tracks weren't flat and great for batting on. On both ocassions our inexperienced top order got themselves out with poor batting, experienced batsmen like Ponting, Clarke and Hussey cashed in like they should have. None of those three made runs on a much more testing WACA pitch.

I didn't see Clarke's innings in SA but apparently he had quite a bit of luck early on. Once Clarke gets to 50 he usually goes on with it but early in his innings against a fairly new ball with swing and seam he tends to struggle, no doubt why he prefers to bat at 5 rather than at 3 or 4. He's a great batsman on flat pitches and plays spin very well but in swinging and seaming conditions the jury's still out on him.

NEWSFLASH!! Most pitches in test cricket these days are flat. He can still be benchmarked against his peers, and is doing very well. If the conditions were so easy, everyone in the top 6 would be scoring runs. No one in India's famous batting line up has scored a hundred. Clarke has score almost 500 runs not out across 2 innings. Clarke has made runs in England in the past, as mentioned above our best Batsman in the last Ashes series in England. He also made a ton on debut in India and scored an amazing 151 in SA on an unplayable pitch.

Pull your head in

 

[CHIEF SMACKAHOE]

I am not sure exactly what constitutes an all time great either, but with Clarke's record, he wouldn't be too far outside of Australia's best ever test 11. My tip is that by the time he is finished, the general consensus will be that he belongs in it.

Bradman
Ponting
Chappell
Harvey
Waugh
Border
Miller
Gilchrist

no way he goes past any of these for a middle order spot

 

[Dan]

I still can't stand him :/ However his form with the bat has been very good of late.

 

[DeadlyAkkuret]

At least the argument has gone from whether or not he should be in the side (laughable, btw) to a debate about where he stands in comparison to the all time great Australian batsmen.

He's moving up.

 

[Maddhew]

Bradman
Ponting
Chappell
Harvey
Waugh
Border
Miller
Gilchrist

no way he goes past any of these for a middle order spot

Not yet, interestingly he now has more 100s and a higher average than Gilly in about 7 less innings.

 

[CHIEF SMACKAHOE]

and yet he's not half the batsman. very interesting indeed

 

[Dan]

Not yet, interestingly he now has more 100s and a higher average than Gilly in about 7 less innings.

Gilly batted just above the tail though

 

[Maddhew]

Gilly batted just above the tail though

Clarke has more not outs
FWIW, im not saying better than Gilly, just pointing out his record stacks up

 

[dan warna]

At least the argument has gone from whether or not he should be in the side (laughable, btw) to a debate about where he stands in comparison to the all time great Australian batsmen.

He's moving up.

When he was first selected the question of whether he should be in the side or not was fair enough.

 

[Tazwegian]

Bradman
Ponting
Chappell
Harvey
Waugh
Border
Miller
Gilchrist

no way he goes past any of these for a middle order spot

Me either, as yet. His career isn't over though. I reckon he can get into Steve Waugh/Alan Border territory though. He is way past Miller in terms of batting, but Miller was an all rounder. Harvey could also be knocked off by pup, in fact, I would almost have him before Harvey as of now. That's debatable.

 

[CHIEF SMACKAHOE]

Me either, as yet. His career isn't over though. I reckon he can get into Steve Waugh/Alan Border territory though. He is way past Miller in terms of batting, but Miller was an all rounder. Harvey could also be knocked off by pup, in fact, I would almost have him before Harvey as of now. That's debatable.

waugh was the best batsman in the world in the mid 90s facing bowlers like ambrose and donald at their peaks while border faced the west indies pace quartet for a decade. and no way is he comparable to harvey, i know he has a higher average but you have to put that into context. maybe a better batsman than miller overall but by all accounts miller at his best was just about the best batsman we've ever had bar bradman.

 

[dan warna]

Me either, as yet. His career isn't over though. I reckon he can get into Steve Waugh/Alan Border territory though. He is way past Miller in terms of batting, but Miller was an all rounder. Harvey could also be knocked off by pup, in fact, I would almost have him before Harvey as of now. That's debatable.

Again you compare with your peers at the time.

20 years ago there were maybe 5 batsmen averaging 50, viv richards, Sunny Gavaskar, border, Miandad.

Before that Boycott and Greg Chappel.

Today there are more than a dozen batsmen consistently averaging above 50. Sri lanka has 3, India has 3, Under S.waugh we had 4, England has 2 or 3, South Africa has 1 or 2 etc etc.

Also conditions, bats and technology has changed a lot in the last 20 years, Have a look at some of the Don's bats, they were matchsticks compared to the axes used today.

In the mid 1980 to early 1990s, anyone averaging over 45 was considered top notch, heck people are on here telling us Mark Waugh was a legend of the game averaging 42.

That said, he's lifted his form from mid 30s, to mid 40s to close enough to 50.

Sure it was off the back of a triple century, but when you start removing players big scores, that is going to affect everyones average. Further his triple was scored in a game with 3 batsman who about 40,000 test runs experience between them and the game was NOT a draw like some of the boring massive test matches we've had in the subcontinent where several players have had massive innings.

While I wouldn't put him in the all time greats category, nor even in the same category as Border and S.waugh, he's certainly showing enough at the moment to put him in the same category as the other top batsmen in test cricket.

The question remains whether he can perform consistently at this level for the next 3 or 4 seasons at least.

 

[Tazwegian]

To get in my all time 11 he has a fair job on his hands. He definitely won't beat Bradman, and most likely won't squeeze past Ponting and Chappell.

So it would be openers followed by:

Bradman
Ponting
Chappell

With the fourth spot up for grabs between the likes of Miller (if you want an all rounder in the team), Border, Waugh, and Pup (not at this stage, but if he finishes his last five years or so in the kind of form I am confident he is capable of).

It will be interesting to see how people compare him to Hussey as well. Hussey is immensely underrated in my opinion. I would love to see a moneyball style analysis run on him, I am sure having him in the team is ridiculously valuable.

 

[Maddhew]

I doubt it, he would need to have a phenomenal second half of his career to get even close and even then I still can't see him making it.



India's batsmen are facing much better bowling than Clarke is facing in this series. It's basically a case of seeing off a few good overs from the Indian quicks early on and then they just go through the motions with the field spread.

Clarke averaged in the low 20s against England last summer against genuine quality swing and seam bowling and a team that exerted constant pressure in the field like we are exerting now against India. He still needs to prove himself against England next year to really cement his reputation as a top line test batsman and captain.

Again, you can only play what is put in front of you, and he is doing it better than anyone. Benchmarked, he is the best

 

[DeadlyAkkuret]

Clarke averaged in the low 20s against England last summer against genuine quality swing and seam bowling and a team that exerted constant pressure in the field like we are exerting now against India. He still needs to prove himself against England next year to really cement his reputation as a top line test batsman and captain.

So you've just conveniently ignored the other Ashes stats posted in this thread have you?

 

[DeadlyAkkuret]

No, I haven't ignored them, but the England team he dominated in 2009 wasn't so bad either.

 

[Natho]

Good cricketer. But still a tosser. But Clarke has got them playing good cricket.

 

[TheWoodenSlug]

Clarke's career (into his 80th test)

Runs: 5802
Average: 49.59 (49.17 if he goes out without scoring tomorrow)
Hundreds: 19
Highest Score: 329*

Ponting after 80 tests

Runs: 6109
Average: 53.58
Hundreds: 20
Highest Score: 257

So at this stage of his career, Clarke has only scored 307 less runs than Ponting had at the same stage of his career, though at a reasonably inferior average. Those figures take Ponting to late 2004. Since then his yearly averages have been:

67.40 (the rest of 2004)
67.13 (2005)
88.86 (2006)
38.40 (2007)
47.28 (2008)
38.77 (2009)
36.95 (2010)
31.92 (2011)
139.00 (so far in 2012 - 92.67 if he goes out without scoring tomorrow)

If Clarke can avoid such a long form slump that Ponting suffered between 2007 and 2011 (big if, I know) then he is well on his way to becoming an all time great.

Edit: Bear in mind that I much prefer Ponting to Clarke and am not saying that Clarke is or ever will be as good as Ponting. Just thought it made for an interesting comparison.

 

[King Elvis]

I know you're just measuring it on time played, but as you say, you're taking this;

Those figures take Ponting to late 2004. Since then his yearly averages have been:

67.40 (the rest of 2004)
67.13 (2005)
88.86 (2006)

Out of the calculations... Which kind of invalidates them.

I am not sure exactly what constitutes an all time great either, but with Clarke's record, he wouldn't be too far outside of Australia's best ever test 11. My tip is that by the time he is finished, the general consensus will be that he belongs in it.

If he continues this vein of form, he'll be remember as a very good batsman, but unless he performs at an average of ~75+ for the next 5 years, he wont be anywhere near our best ever XI.

 

[TheWoodenSlug]

I know you're just measuring it on time played, but as you say, you're taking this;



Out of the calculations... Which kind of invalidates them.



If he continues this vein of form, he'll be remember as a very good batsman, but unless he performs at an average of ~75+ for the next 5 years, he wont be anywhere near our best ever XI.

Yeah you're right and I'm not really trying to prove anything with those stats, I just found it interesting because I thought Ponting would be further in front.

The point I was trying to make with those yearly averages was that Ponting's prolific years are evened out by some ordinary years. As such Ponting's overall average within those years (late 2004 - now) is 52.62, therefore Clarke doesn't need to produce those extraordinary years averaging 80 like Ponting did (though if we play India often enough he will ). If Clarke can just keep his yearly average around 50 every year, he will finish his career as one of our most prolific batsman ever, putting him in the "all time great" category.

As I said though - it's a big if.

As for our best ever XI, I find that sort of thing impossible since I never saw a lot of the players that would be nominated so I won't comment on that.

Anyway, here's hoping for twin double tons today for Pup and Punter!! Has there ever been a case of someone making two double (or triple!) tons in one series?

 

[King Elvis]

Did Punter make twin doubles in a series a few years back?

I remember one, when he was on fire, and feel like he made two pretty close together?

 

[workhorse]

Did Punter make twin doubles in a series a few years back?

I remember one, when he was on fire, and feel like he made two pretty close together?

Consecutive tests actually. Adelaide and Melbourne against India in 2003.

242 and 257 (with a blob in between )

 

[The Passenger]

2013 and 2013/14 will be where a lot of reputations are made, for both australia and the english.

whilst belting a disinterested indian lineup is good for everyone in the australian and helps the stats sheets. it's match and series defining peformances is those two series that will ultimately be career defining.

clarke has been nothing but impressive since taking over the captaincy. not just his batting, but his general captaincy too has been much more impressive. helps when the bowlers are bowling at full power too.

an average of 50 is nothing to sneeze at.

 

[TheWoodenSlug]

Did Punter make twin doubles in a series a few years back?

I remember one, when he was on fire, and feel like he made two pretty close together?

In a 5 test series against England in England, Bradman posted scores of 1, 8, 14, 131, 232, 254 and 334. Wow. God I would have loved to have seen Bradman bat!!

And I agree with you Black Thunder, the two Ashes series coming up is where we will find out where the team is really at.

 

[dan warna]

wow, talk about warming up...