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What's the difference between Tanking and Match Fixing?

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stui magpie

Deity in training, practicing omnipotence
Oct 3, 2005
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Disclaimer, this is not a dig at Melbourne FC.

I thought about this topic and the investigation into Melbourne this morning, and also listened to some discussion on Eddies breakfast radio show.

Ed made some very good points about list management and how the AFL screwed the pooch by creating a reward for people to manufacture losing more games than they otherwise would.

It made me think abut a few things.

Allegedly, Melbourne set out to win less than 5 games in order to get a priority pick. They were also up against it financially and held fundraisers where people donated money to the club.

Allegedly, some of those donating 6 figure sums, did so on the proviso that the club would "manage" the rest of the season to ensure it got a priority draft pick.

Not much wrong with that you say? Just good list management and planning for the future? Fair enough.

I wonder if all those who allegedly made conditional donations would be happy to have their finances audited to ensure they didn't make bets with bookies/online/someone that Melbourne would win less than 5 games (or 5 games or less whatever the criteria was)?

Take this for a slight twist. If it's easy for a club that's struggling to choose to lose certain games late in the season to ensure a priority pick, why couldn't they do it at other times during the season?

Hypothetical example.

A club is doing it real hard financially, the AFL is propping them up, but their membership is low and can't get decent sponsors, facilities are crap and they're in debt up to their eyeballs. (sound familiar?)

Someone comes to the president/CEO etc and makes an offer. The offer is to donate $2,000,000 to the club. No obligation to service a sponsor, provide media coverage etc, all they want in return is that the club will lose 3 games of football that year, games to be nominated by the bloke providing the $2 mil. They would be games where the club was not real favourites to win, games where there would be little scrutiny or shock if they lost, but winnable games nonetheless.

Most people would baulk at that because it's obvious that the "donor" intends to back the opposition in those 3 games for big money and make back his $2 mil + interest. Some may decide that it's only 3 games, it's an investment in the long term future of the club, it's setting us up for next season, ensuring our viability, etc.

What's the difference between this scenario and deliberately losing games to get a draft pick?

Considering the AFL will hand out lengthy suspensions for players putting on $10 bets or giving away selection decisions to family for fear of people manipulating insider info for gambling, what would they do to a club that they can determine deliberately set out to lose games?

It seems to me that the AFL are going hard on this because of the scenario I've outlined above. If there's a difference between tanking and match fixing, it's minimal at best.

Discuss.
 
Tanking is deliberately finishing as low as possible in order to obtain draft picks, match fixing is throwing a game or a score/game moment in order to receive money, it is generally brought about by somebody placing a large sum of money on this particular result
 
Tanking is deliberately finishing as low as possible in order to obtain draft picks, match fixing is throwing a game or a score/game moment in order to receive money, it is generally brought about by somebody placing a large sum of money on this particular result
This. Match fixing seems to have the bookmaker element that tanking does not.
 

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Match Fixing is an ensured result. Tanking by means of coaching, the only way teams have tanked is tipping the odds out of your teams favour through list management. Unless the players are ensuring they lose then it is not match fixing, in the same way that a fighter falling over in the third round would be match fixing while a coach giving their fighter bad instructions would not be.
 
there is no difference, tankng is fixing matches to lose.

Who is to say those with wind of the meeting didn't make hay on the side directly on top of those receiving indirect benefits?

In any case Ed as president of Collingwood is not separate from the politics and processes of the league and clubs and so is hardly independent although probably independent of MFC
 
What Melbourne appear to have done in 2009 is a form of match-fixing. That's a good point that if you have donors making it known that they expect the club to ensure it receives a priority pick, that's potentially inside information. You'd want to have a good look to see if any bets were placed.
 
What Melbourne appear to have done in 2009 is a form of match-fixing. That's a good point that if you have donors making it known that they expect the club to ensure it receives a priority pick, that's potentially inside information. You'd want to have a good look to see if any bets were placed.


Yup, Agree with that.
 

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What Melbourne appear to have done in 2009 is a form of match-fixing. That's a good point that if you have donors making it known that they expect the club to ensure it receives a priority pick, that's potentially inside information. You'd want to have a good look to see if any bets were placed.

Yikes! How far will this rabbit hole go?

This is where it get's really bad for the game as a whole, and not just Melbourne.
 
When a finals-bound club rests a bunch of players (late withdrawals) from a long interstate trip in the last few rounds to have them fresh for finals, how does the AFL view this?
As long as the coaches aren't attempting to lose the match, I don't see how it would be a concern.
 
Match Fixing is an ensured result. Tanking by means of coaching, the only way teams have tanked is tipping the odds out of your teams favour through list management. Unless the players are ensuring they lose then it is not match fixing, in the same way that a fighter falling over in the third round would be match fixing while a coach giving their fighter bad instructions would not be.


I cannot agree with this.

Lets assume I offer Jack Riewoldt 50k to make sure Richmond lose to melbourne. Now Jack misses shots, drops marks and generally does stuff to look like he is trying but in effect is deliberately underperforming. Now the other 21 blokes have no idea and try and we manage to win the match is that not Match Fixing on Jack's behalf?? Just because the result was not obtained does not mean the player or coach has attempted to tip the odds against their team more than normal which is helping to fix the result.
 
You mean like this game?

Round 21
Saturday, 21 August 2010(2:10 pm)
Hawthorn 24.11 (155)
def.​
Fremantle 5.9 (39) Aurora Stadium (crowd: 15,532[9]) Report

then

Elimination Final Week 1
Saturday, 4 September 2010 1:20 pm
Fremantle 14.10 (94)
def.​
Hawthorn 8.16 (64) Subiaco Oval (crowd: 42,719) Report
It's an ugly result, but I'm pretty confident the Freo coaching staff were trying still attempting to win, they were just doing it with a set of players that would help them a couple of weeks later. It can't be match fixing if they aren't trying to lose.
 

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When a finals-bound club rests a bunch of players (late withdrawals) from a long interstate trip in the last few rounds to have them fresh for finals, how does the AFL view this?
No idea how the AFL sees it, but to me - even if the club is resting players because they wouldn't be averse to a few losses - there is absolutely no problem with it as long as the players who are on the park give 100%.

Reason being is that it's all transparent. Punters and bookies can look at the team sheets and assess the likely outcome of the match based on the quality of the sides the two teams are fielding.

If you have players on the park deliberately underperforming, that's a different story. Even if one or both sides are deliberately understrength, the general public has the right to assume that all players who are on the park are putting in an honest effort. If they're not, that's when the fix is in.
 
Aren't both basically setting out to lose games in order to receive a reward, financial or otherwise?
The aim of tanking is to eventually win the premiership - which is rightly the aim of every club - without your club's tanking effort in 2005 your club would be without Pendlebury and your premiership cabinet not so full.

The aim of match fixing is to gain financial advantage through deception.

I honestly don't have a problem with what you guys did in 2005, as your club president said, you have to make the most of your situation. It was the system itself which was broken.
 
No need to over think it, tanking is a form of match fixing.

a subset if you like: Tanking
subset.jpg
Match fixing.
 
No idea how the AFL sees it, but to me - even if the club is resting players because they wouldn't be averse to a few losses - there is absolutely no problem with it as long as the players who are on the park give 100%.

Reason being is that it's all transparent. Punters and bookies can look at the team sheets and assess the likely outcome of the match based on the quality of the sides the two teams are fielding.

If you have players on the park deliberately underperforming, that's a different story. Even if one or both sides are deliberately understrength, the general public has the right to assume that all players who are on the park are putting in an honest effort. If they're not, that's when the fix is in.
Are Melbourne players being accused of deliberately under performing? I thought it was more the selections, positional moves and intent of the coaches/admin that was under scrutiny.

I don't see the difference. Fremantle had their eyes on a final and didn't care about losing a minor round game - didn't play their best team. Taking the foot off the gas is seen as acceptable in this situation for some reason.

I don't agree with the transparent/bookie angle either. It is equally predictable that a bottom 8 team with no hope of making finals will have lower motivation, try some kids, experiment with positions etc.
 
The aim of tanking is to eventually win the premiership - which is rightly the aim of every club - without your club's tanking effort in 2005 your club would be without Pendlebury and your premiership cabinet not so full.

The aim of match fixing is to gain financial advantage through deception.

I honestly don't have a problem with what you guys did in 2005, as your club president said, you have to make the most of your situation. It was the system itself which was broken.


That argument falls on deaf ears because the coaches players wages etc.. bonuses are linked to certain objectives. So their is financial advantage through deception, the path is a little more indirect thats all, and besides, I would be stunned if no one took advantage of the meeting(s) that took place regarding being aware of info that pronounced bias ahead of certain contests which the public were wagering on.

You only have to see the claim of people getting sacked if they win to see the link
 

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What's the difference between Tanking and Match Fixing?

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