When did the VFL overtake the VFA in popularity?

[juddy_Like]

Couldnt they just merge the two comps?

Like from reading on this... it just seems abit like the Super League & ARL in Rugby.

 

[Inside Goss]

Some other things that helped break the VFA's back was the introduction of the VSJFL? (I think that was it??) now TAC cup, and this almost immediately spelt the end for VFA thirds or u/19s. The draft system didn't help the VFA one bit at all either...

 

[Inside Goss]

Thing is though - it nearly happened again in the 1970's. There was a concept called the National Football League Of Australia, based out of Adelaide. It's idea was to shut out the VFL. It nearly worked. The return of the night series started with the SANFL and WAFL clubs driving it and only "inviting" 5 VFL clubs to participate.

The VFL/AFL immediately squash any movement for the WAFL and SANFL to expand to decent capabilities. They fought (if memory serves me correctly) in the court of Law for Contracts for players of the SANFL to become Null and Void should they be recruited into the VFL. thats dating back 30 odd years ago. Even up to and including this year when noise was made about Tassie joining the SANFL all of a sudden the AFL decide to throw a couple of million at them to stay in the unstavle VFL and disallow any momentum or decent structuring of the SANFL, they do what they can to kill keep a foot on the VFL WAFL and SANFL and i'm sick of it.

I would love nothing more than the WAFL SANFL VFL to merge and become the Australian Football Association, or even South Australian & Districts football League just to stick it right up the AFL, but they have so much power these days its ridiculous, and now there is a move for the AFL to have complete control and own the VFL comp.

 

[Inside Goss]

I think Australian Football supporters should be thankfull that the VFA paved the way for our great game in its founding years.
I hope the AFL dosent do its usual downgrading of the the VFAs important early role 1877 - 1896 in the promotion of our game in its 150 year celebrations next year.
Younger AFL fans probabily dont realise that ALL the current AFL clubs in Melbourne plus Fitzroy and the Swans started out as VFA clubs.They all have a VFA history.

The current VFL (sic) is nothing like the passionate clubs that made up the VFA in its heyday and it will never reach those heights again as this made up comp is more and more becoming the AFL reserves.

As sad as it is, the AFL are making it out to be and promoting 150 years of Australian football as 150 years of AFL football, they convieniently forget that only 10 years ago it was their centenury year...

 

[Inside Goss]

and they wont let anyone know that the VFA/L SANFL and WAFL are older competitions...

 

[onslaught]

My earliest footy memory was running onto Toorak Park (Prahran) after Camberwell won the 1979 Second Division Grand Final. The ground was packed. Although I was too young too young to remember the game I can remember the excitement of running on after the siren. They got some big crowds to some of those 2nd Division games.

VFA Premiers Footscray defeated the VFL Premiers Essendon in 1924 (from memory)... a good indicator that the competitions were reasonably even.

Several VFA clubs pushed for admission into the VFL, not only in the early days of the breakaway, but even into the 1920's when eventually Footscray joined.

There was lots of competition for Hawthorn's spot, as several clubs in that inner eastern area were a chance for inclusion.

Offtopic - I'd love to see something like a lightning premiership as part of the 150 year celebrations including all the current clubs that have played in the VFA (including those now in the AFL).

It's about time for a National carnival too... I'd love to see a Glenelg vs Sandringham or a Port Melbourne v East Fremantle.

 

[Bomba Sheldon]

Its a crying shame how a lot of these old VFA clubs were disbanded and their proud history allowed to die with them. Thats the only reason I would like to see the Blues stay with the Northern Bullants so that the old Preston club survives.

Some of the older clubs that have folded are gone for good like Sunshine, Brunswick (even though North Old Boys in the Ammo's use their old ground) etc. Some clubs are now represented by clubs in local leagues such a Yaaraville in the WRFL and Prahran in the ammo's but its still not the same.

I dont know exactly what the AFL can or should do but they should try and keep the existing clubs alive by making the VFL competetion a viable one. How they do it I am not quite sure but they need to look into it before its too late. To take on the best from the SANFL, WAFL etc would require a lot of resources to be injected into it to bring it up to the playing quality / competitivenes to take on the like of Central Disticts, Claremont etc. It has merit as it may attract a lot more gun footballers from the Ammo's and the bush to play in a premier league?

How I would love to go back to Toorak Park on a Sunday arvo and watch Prahran The Mighty Two Blues take on the Bullants, the Burra, Willy etc. Those were great days indeed.

 

[evertonfc]

The 1990 VFA Grand Final at Carlton between Springvale and Williamstown was a full house.

Damn straight it was. When Ian Rickman lobbed one from the centre square to put the Gulls late in the last quarter, scribes dubbed it the 'kick heard around the world'.

When Billy Swan wobbled his helicopter through to win it, the best last-quarter GF comeback in football was complete. Without question, my favourite footballing memory, VFL or AFL.

I'm ecstatic the Bulldogs have aligned themselves with Williamstown - a terrific result for the local community.

I used to love the VFL, but the AFL alignment killed it for me. I hated supporting Casey (Springvale) over Willy; I won't hesitate to back the 'town now.

 

[finders]

As sad as it is, the AFL are making it out to be and promoting 150 years of Australian football as 150 years of AFL football, they convieniently forget that only 10 years ago it was their centenury year...

Well "Australian Football" supporters shoud make sure they dont get away with trying this markerting bullshit about the origins of "OUR GAME"
Like this piece of crap from the "official" history of the AFL/VFL from their own website! Remember the Motto of our code is not the AFL owns the game but Populi Ludos Populo - the game of the people for the people

FFS not ONE mention of the 20 years of competition and interstate games! Hows that for twisting history for your own ends?

Is it no wonder anyone under 20 thinks the A F LEAGUE is Australian Football and nothing else existed.
Our game has a wonderfull and colourfull history and the AFL shouldnt be able to bastardise it in any way'




AFL History

In 1857, Tom Wills, one of the founders of Australian Football, returned to Australia after schooling in England where he was football captain of Rugby School and a brilliant cricketer. Initially, he advocated the winter game of football as a way of keeping cricketers fit during off-season.
The new game was devised by Wills, his cousin H.C.A. Harrison, W.J. Hammersley and J.B. Thompson. The Melbourne Football Club was formed on August 7, 1858 – the year of the code’s first recorded match between Scotch College and Melbourne Grammar School.
The

game quickly blossomed. The Geelong Football Club was formed in 1859 and in 1866 an updated set of rules was put in place and competition started.

The Victorian Football League was established in 1896 and the following year the League’s first games were played among the foundation clubs – Carlton, Collingwood, Essendon, Fitzroy, Geelong, Melbourne, St Kilda and South Melbourne.
In 1908, Richmond and University joined the competition. But after the 1914 season, University left the League. In 1925, Footscray (now the Western Bulldogs), Hawthorn and North Melbourne (now the Kangaroos) joined the VFL.
This line-up of 12 clubs would remain unchanged until 1987 when the competition expanded to include the West Coast Eagles and the Brisbane Bears. BY 1997, the competition comprised 16 clubs after Adelaide (in 1991), Fremantle (in 1995), and Port Adelaide (in 1997) joined the now Australian Football League and foundation club Fitzroy merged with the Brisbane Bears to form the Brisbane Lions (after the 199season).

Heres the real history.

On May 7, 1877, representatives of the Albert Park, Carlton, East Melbourne, Essendon, Geelong, Hotham, Melbourne, and St Kilda football clubs met to form the Victorian Football Association (VFA) for the “promotion and extension of football throughout the colony” and the organization of intercolonial matches. During the 1870s over 125 clubs appeared in Melbourne, and another 60 senior clubs were established elsewhere in Victoria. A regular schedule of matches was developed; additional grounds were enclosed; and VFA clubs were able to charge admission.

The game continued to spread throughout the colonies. In 1877 the South Australian Football Association was formed. Tasmania accepted VFA rules in 1882, and in 1885 the Western Australian Football Association was established. Despite these successes, the game struggled to gain a foothold in the northeastern parts of Australia. The first game in Sydney took place in 1877

 

[fishmonger]

Would have sucked to be a gun VFA player when the leagues were relatively competitive, then try and brag to your grandkids these days and they'd just laugh at you

Yep.

One of my coaches up in Queensland was apparently a former VFA legend. Problem is noone knew him from a bar of soap. Even I can't remember his name anymore.

Yet, Sherwood Magpies were coached by one of the Shaws (I think Ray from memory ? ??) and he was idolised in the QAFL, despite being a moderately good VFL footballer.

 

[Timmy from Thomastown]

The VFL was superior to the VFA from day 1.

However the big money was in country football, right up until the 1960's. There are numerous examples of VFL greats "retiring" in their mid 20's to chase the big bucks in the country leagues.

 

[pazza]

Damn straight it was. When Ian Rickman lobbed one from the centre square to put the Gulls late in the last quarter, scribes dubbed it the 'kick heard around the world'.

When Billy Swan wobbled his helicopter through to win it, the best last-quarter GF comeback in football was complete. Without question, my favourite footballing memory, VFL or AFL.

I could have sworn Sam Kekovich swallowed the ABC mike after Chops' goal!

My best memory of the VFA came a few years later when Werribee shocked everyone and knocked off Port Melbourne. The fight in the last, which sparked the ground invasion, was a huge highlight. Was the start of the greatest week in footy I've ever experienced.

 

[MarkT]

The VFL was superior to the VFA from day 1.

However the big money was in country football, right up until the 1960's. There are numerous examples of VFL greats "retiring" in their mid 20's to chase the big bucks in the country leagues.

No less than Bob Rose retired from the VFL to support his family on country football wages.

(Many Collingwood people regard Bob Rose the greatest Collingwood player ever.)

 

[Turkey Tom]

The VFL was superior to the VFA from day 1.

However the big money was in country football, right up until the 1960's. There are numerous examples of VFL greats "retiring" in their mid 20's to chase the big bucks in the country leagues.

Fred Fanning - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fred_Fanning

"In 1947 he kicked 18 goals, 1 point in a game against St Kilda which is a record for most goals in a VFL/AFL match, still standing to this day.[2]

He joined Victorian country team Hamilton in 1948 after being offered three times the salary he was received at Melbourne. Despite finishing 1947 with a career best 97 goals it would be his last in the VFL, he was aged just twenty five."

That game he kick 18 goals was his last game in the VFL I believe. His next game was for Hamilton.

 

[jaxxon]

It was mentioned by a few posters on here, but I think a state league lightning premiership for the preseason would be an excellent idea. I think it would create a lot of interest in those clubs again, and really celebrate the history of the game. Problem is that I doubt the AFL would allow football that they didn't control be the centrepiece of the football world.

 

[Mero]

The other thing to bear in mind is that when the VFL formed, they had different rules to the VFA.
For one thing, they started scoring 6 points for a goal and 1 point for a behind, as we do today.
The VFA were still going with the old system of only scoring the goals, for 1 point each.

There were others which I have in a book somewhere, which I'll add when I find it.

 

[Art Corvelay]

VFA Premiers Footscray defeated the VFL Premiers Essendon in 1924 (from memory)... a good indicator that the competitions were reasonably even.

Isn't that match tainted in history as it's believed some Essendon players threw the match for money?

 

[Inside Goss]

Isn't that match tainted in history as it's believed some Essendon players threw the match for money?

Generally VFL and Essendon supporters will tell you yes, and VFA and Bulldogs supporters will tel you no, the jury is still out and probably forever will be. But to be honest, I think (corrct me if i'm wrong) that the game was played the week after the season finished, I know times were different in the 20's but how seriously was the game take for starters???

Whether or not the Dons or Dogs were better, the fact is the VFL had greater depth as a competition and more money, and that was the desired team to play in. The way History has been written you can't rule out that Essendon were payed out to throw the game, but you would be keen to be convinced that was what happened.. had they played the top 4 from VFL against the top 4 from VFA the 4th finisher in the VFA would have more than likely had their pants pulled down.

 

[CrowdedHouse]

Generally VFL and Essendon supporters will tell you yes, and VFA and Bulldogs supporters will tel you no, the jury is still out and probably forever will be. But to be honest, I think (corrct me if i'm wrong) that the game was played the week after the season finished, I know times were different in the 20's but how seriously was the game take for starters???

Whether or not the Dons or Dogs were better, the fact is the VFL had greater depth as a competition and more money, and that was the desired team to play in. The way History has been written you can't rule out that Essendon were payed out to throw the game, but you would be keen to be convinced that was what happened.. had they played the top 4 from VFL against the top 4 from VFA the 4th finisher in the VFA would have more than likely had their pants pulled down.

From what I remember reading Williamstown was the favoured side from the Western Suburbs to join the VFL in 1925 - But with Essendon throwing the game to Footscray (thanks to a few bucks) the VFL decided to extend the invitation to join to the Bulldogs (Tri-Colours then).

Word has it many older fans of Williamstown are still dirty on Footscray over the whole event.

 

[SJ]

They both filled a niche until about the late 70s when the camel's back finally broke.

For instance in 1976, the VFA season attendance of 937,291 as compared to 2,863,112 for the VFL. That is not really that far behind.

The big clincher was when the Sydney Swans were admitted to the VFL. The VFL/AFL won the TV rights war, as the games were played at the same time as VFA fixtures. The VFA never recovered and the VFL went on to become the national competition.

What were the average crowds per game for those?

 

[finders]

I'd argue the two most famous recruits for the VFA were Ron Todd and Bob Pratt - both VFL superstars who were lured to the VFA (Williamstown and Coburg respectively, I think) for more money.

Add Laurie Nash at Camberwell plus a host of other top VFL players who crossed to the VFA without permits during the mid 1930s to 1940s The VFA played the VFL a couple of times during the 1930s at the MCG and did pretty well.

The permit system was only reinstated between the VFA and VFL after the VFA joined the ANFC in the early1950s That greement was broken again in the 1960s when players like Fred Cook crossed from the VFL to the VFA without a clearence Peter Chisnall also crossed to Sandrinham from North during the 1970s.
The open clearance deal worked both ways as Tery Waters left Dandenong to Collingwood with out a clearance.

 

[Partridge]

What were the average crowds per game for those?

There is video footage of a VFA Grand Final around 1975-1976 at the Junction Oval - and the ground is absolutely packed. So they were still drawing decent crowds at least around that time. I think it was only the mid-to-late 80s it nosedived. Could be wrong though.

 

[FFS Kick it]

The VFL and VFA comps were pretty even up to 1920. The VFL was only arguably slightly better, without any certainty. When WW1 ended the VFL started to take over through continued expansion. Sounds familiar doesn't it.

However up to 1920 the comps were even. A common occurrence would be clubs from either leagues offering money to players to change leagues.

A couple of interesting facts. IIRC Fitzroy won the wooden spoon and premiership in the same year. Some time during WW1, only 4 teams, Roys finished 4th and then won all the finals.

Also think there was a game between Stkilda (VFL)and North Melbourne(VFA) during WW1. Kangas smashed the Saints. Apparently all in brawls were more common than anything else.

One thing to remember is the history between the two leagues is one of bitterness, recrimination and outright hatred until about the 80's/90's when the VFA went into permanent decline

 

[finders]

From what I remember reading Williamstown was the favoured side from the Western Suburbs to join the VFL in 1925 - But with Essendon throwing the game to Footscray (thanks to a few bucks) the VFL decided to extend the invitation to join to the Bulldogs (Tri-Colours then).

Word has it many older fans of Williamstown are still dirty on Footscray over the whole event.

It has never been proved the Essendon threw the game.

The other option is that Footscray team at the time was a better team than Essendon and to prove that point Essendon recruited a number of the Footscray players which didnt help when the Tri Colours entered the VFL minus some of their best players.

 

[SJ]

The VFL and VFA comps were pretty even up to 1920. The VFL was only arguably slightly better, without any certainty. When WW1 ended the VFL started to take over through continued expansion. Sounds familiar doesn't it.

However up to 1920 the comps were even. A common occurrence would be clubs from either leagues offering money to players to change leagues.

A couple of interesting facts. IIRC Fitzroy won the wooden spoon and premiership in the same year. Some time during WW1, only 4 teams, Roys finished 4th and then won all the finals.

Also think there was a game between Stkilda (VFL)and North Melbourne(VFA) during WW1. Kangas smashed the Saints. Apparently all in brawls were more common than anything else.

One thing to remember is the history between the two leagues is one of bitterness, recrimination and outright hatred until about the 80's/90's when the VFA went into permanent decline

Pretty sure it would still be there, considering the way the VFL/AFL has completed white-anted the VFA/VFL.