When did the VFL overtake the VFA in popularity?

[Deejay]

The popularity of the VFA always seemed to be a "taboo" subject amongst VFL ranks. Presumably the VFA was more popular than the VFL for some time after the inception of the VFL.

Serious answers only please

 

[finders]

From my reading of Victorian Football history they were both roughly the same for a few years after the VFL breakaway in 1897.

The VFL got the upper hand from WW1 and was never again headed but the VFA was quite popular in the mid 1920s when clubs like Brunswick and Northcote got crowds of 20,000 to games. In the late 1930s when they drew just under 50,000 to a VFA GF at the MCG.Brunswick vs Williamstown

 

[t-love]

I think VFL played on saturdays and VFA was played on sunday generally.

Then the leagues decided to use both days and essentially the VFL was given preference by fans and media.

I may be wrong though.

 

[ausfatcat]

VFL was always the most popular comp, you have to remember the VFL was formed of the most popular VFA teams. but the VFA was reasonably healthy (was even televised) due to vfl saturdays and vfa sundays. Gradually the VFL became more and more popular in the late seventies and eighties.
When Sydney came into the comp the VFL began to play games on Sundays and this really dimished the VFA's appeal. The rest is history.

The 7th May 1877 saw the formation of the Victorian Football Association (VFA). The foundation clubs were metropolitan teams Albert Park (later South Melbourne), Carlton, Hotham (later North Melbourne), Melbourne and St Kilda, adjacent teams of Geelong and Barwon and country teams of Inglewood, Ballarat, Beechworth, Castlemaine and Rochester. The VFA oversaw revision of the rules and the playing of inter-colonial games. The game flourished in Tasmania, South Australia, Western Australia and even for a time in New Zealand. Unfortunately the VFA and others failed in New South Wales and England. Dissatisfaction with rules and the running of the competition led to the formation of the breakaway Victorian Football League (VFL) at a meeting on the 3rd October 1896.

really not much info around on the VFA would be interested if there was anymore links if people have them.

 

[Mero]

The VFL was intially made up of the top VFA sides, with the biggest followings, and the biggest revenues.
They were Geelong, Collingwood, Essendon, Melbourne, Carlton, South Melbourne and Fitzroy. StKilda were admitted instead of Footscray because they had a better ground with better public transport access to it, even though Footscray were a better team.

Basically from 1897 the VFL won the attention of the newspapers of the day, and therefore the popularity of the footy public.
Yes, there were big crowds for local derby type games, but generally the VFL had bigger crowds than the VFA from Day 1.
Since then there has been a growing support for VFL, now AFL support, where VFA support has risen and fallen. But it's never gone past the interest in the VFL.

 

[Inside Goss]

VFL was always the most popular comp, you have to remember the VFL was formed of the most popular VFA teams. but the VFA was reasonably healthy (was even televised) due to vfl saturdays and vfa sundays. Gradually the VFL became more and more popular in the late seventies and eighties.
When Sydney came into the comp the VFL began to play games on Sundays and this really dimished the VFA's appeal. The rest is history.




really not much info around on the VFA would be interested if there was anymore links if people have them.

Wrong, the VFL teams that broke away were the most financial clubs. (admitedly probably almost barring St. Kilda as they were accepted to represent the Southern Suburbs.) Geelong proposed to a select few clubs to break away as they were begginning to become disgruntled with how the VFA was being run, and who they accepted into the League, as the overall standard was decreasing and some games became blowouts.
Early on the standard was similar, ( the top 3 or 4 VFA could hold their own in the VFL) but the drop off rate was what the diffrence was, in 1908 I think Richmond and University were both accepted in and slowly year by yearthe VFL started to take ascendancy. it wasn't until the 1920's that the Bulldigs and Kangaroos were accepted into the VFL, and it is believed that the only reason Port Melbourne wasn't accepted in was because of the behaviour of their fans. From this time onwards the VFL was really more dominant in terms of popularity and as an Overall league better standard, the main difference being that the VFL could pay more money as they had more money, so the better players were in the VFL and therefore attracting bigger crowds to watch the 'superstars' play. Clubs like Port MElbourne and Williamstown were able to splash a fair bit fo cash around for some gun players, probabloy none more famous then Fred Cook who bagged 1200 odd goals in the VFA after recieving more money and benefits to play in the VFA for Port Melbourne than the VFL.from the 1930s through to 1960 the VFL was always a step above and the VFA tried different things like 2 divisions to generate more interest, but of course all it was becoming was a stepping stone to the VFL and a place to return to after your VFL career was over. right up into into the 80's the VFA was still trying things like 16 men on the field, and sunday games, but South Melbournes relocation to Sydney brought about the end of VFAs Sunday football domination. Eventually the money was the thing, that broke the VFAs back as players got to a stage where upon retirement from the VFL didn't have to keep playing for a source of income so the VFA lost alot of its attraction with less Ex VFL stars running around on a Sunday on an alternative day to the VFL. It was like Buckley Voss and Hird having a run around in the VFA/L next season to pull some extra numbers through the gate (okay maybe not Voss Buckley and Hird but you get the drift.)

So it can quite easily be argued that until probably 1920s the VFL wasn't if at all too much superior to the top 4 or so teams of the VFA in terms of playing standard, and maybe slightly before that started to gain more popularity, but after WW1 probably started to really take control.

 

[murphy2bedabest]

The VFL was intially made up of the top VFA sides, with the biggest followings, and the biggest revenues.
They were Geelong, Collingwood, Essendon, Melbourne, Carlton, South Melbourne and Fitzroy. StKilda were admitted instead of Footscray because they had a better ground with better public transport access to it, even though Footscray were a better team.
Basically from 1897 the VFL won the attention of the newspapers of the day, and therefore the popularity of the footy public.
Yes, there were big crowds for local derby type games, but generally the VFL had bigger crowds than the VFA from Day 1.
Since then there has been a growing support for VFL, now AFL support, where VFA support has risen and fallen. But it's never gone past the interest in the VFL.

wow we went on to win 9 premierships before joing the vfl in 1925, not saying we would have won 9 vfl premirship but gee our history could have been Different

 

[MarkT]

First of all 8 of the bigger clubs broke away to run their own comp. in 1897. In 1908 Richmond joined. They wouldn’t have wanted to go backwards. In spite of VFA success they took until 1920 to win a VFL flag. That isn’t a bad indicator of relative strength of the two comps at that point. In 1925 the 3 expansion clubs defected from the VFA. They had tried to get into the VFL for some time. That’s a pretty good indication of the relative status of the 2 comps. then. Footscray were the first to win a flag in 1958, Hawthorn won their first in 1961 and North had to wait until 1975.

The VFL was the better comp. from day 1. Not positive about popularity but by extension of standard and who the participants were combined with the end result I think it is safe to say the VFL was the number 1 comp. from day 1 or very close to it.

 

[Partridge]

From this time onwards the VFL was really more dominant in terms of popularity and as an Overall league better standard, the main difference being that the VFL could pay more money as they had more money, so the better players were in the VFL and therefore attracting bigger crowds to watch the 'superstars' play. Clubs like Port MElbourne and Williamstown were able to splash a fair bit fo cash around for some gun players, probabloy none more famous then Fred Cook who bagged 1200 odd goals in the VFA after recieving more money and benefits to play in the VFA for Port Melbourne than the VFL.

I'd argue the two most famous recruits for the VFA were Ron Todd and Bob Pratt - both VFL superstars who were lured to the VFA (Williamstown and Coburg respectively, I think) for more money.

 

[murphy2bedabest]

First of all 8 of the bigger clubs broke away to run their own comp. in 1897. In 1908 Richmond joined. They wouldn’t have wanted to go backwards. In spite of VFA success they took until 1920 to win a VFL flag. That isn’t a bad indicator of relative strength of the two comps at that point. In 1925 the 3 expansion clubs defected from the VFA. They had tried to get into the VFL for some time. That’s a pretty good indication of the relative status of the 2 comps. then. Footscray were the first to win a flag in 1958, Hawthorn won their first in 1961 and North had to wait until 1975.

The VFL was the better comp. from day 1. Not positive about popularity but by extension of standard and who the participants were combined with the end result I think it is safe to say the VFL was the number 1 comp. from day 1 or very close to it.

get your facts right 1954

 

[Inside Goss]

I'd argue the two most famous recruits for the VFA were Ron Todd and Bob Pratt - both VFL superstars who were lured to the VFA (Williamstown and Coburg respectively, I think) for more money.

Yeh good call, there would be a few, Cook I suppose came to the memory bank first.

 

[Deejay]

Thanks for the replies

It struck me a while ago that the terms "league football" and "league footballers" are probably a legacy of the old VFL days and were probably once used to indicate some kind of superiority over "association football".

 

[greennick]

wow we went on to win 9 premierships before joing the vfl in 1925, not saying we would have won 9 vfl premirship but gee our history could have been Different

Different, but still likely not very good. No matter what, it would have been how many years since your last premiership? Although, being in the big league earlier may have allowed you to attract and retain more supporters than you did.

 

[fishmonger]

They both filled a niche until about the late 70s when the camel's back finally broke.

For instance in 1976, the VFA season attendance of 937,291 as compared to 2,863,112 for the VFL. That is not really that far behind.

The big clincher was when the Sydney Swans were admitted to the VFL. The VFL/AFL won the TV rights war, as the games were played at the same time as VFA fixtures. The VFA never recovered and the VFL went on to become the national competition.

 

[Bomba Sheldon]

They both filled a niche until about the late 70s when the camel's back finally broke.

For instance in 1976, the VFA season attendance of 937,291 as compared to 2,863,112 for the VFL. That is not really that far behind.

The big clincher was when the Sydney Swans were admitted to the VFL. The VFL/AFL won the TV rights war, as the games were played at the same time as VFA fixtures. The VFA never recovered and the VFL went on to become the national competition.

You are right about the televised Sunday games, it started with the Commodore Cup being televised live from the lakeside oval. Even though it was only the reserves it was the precursor for the senior comp and basically the death knell for the VFA.

People forget how tribal the old VFA was when the Borough took on the Dandy Redlegs, the mighty Two Blues Prahran played Preston etc. A lot of rivalry and i remember as a kid watching Prahran play on a Sunday and loving it to death. The VFA GF's and the Junction always seemed to be bursting at the seams. But alas the current VFL is not a bootlace in comparision to support from the crowds and i cant ever see it happening again.

 

[pazza]

I think Channel 7 unfortunately cause the eventual demise of the VFA by combining with the VFL to convince the Hamer Government to grant Sunday VFL football.

That said, the VFA were responsible for bringing quality football to the growing suburbs, by introducing the second division in the 1960's.

Clubs like Kilsyth, Berwick, Waverley, Werribee, Box Hill were starting to come along, alongside the likes of Sunshine, Yarraville, Geelong West etc.

I remember 1988 very well. The second division was disbanded - and clubs like Geelong West, Sunshine, Yarraville, Kilsyth, Waverley bit the dust.

The remaining clubs: Brunswick, Box Hill, Camberwell, Coburg, Dandenong, Frankston, Oakleigh, Port Melbourne, Prahran, Preston, Sandringham, Springvale, Werribee, Williamstown.

It was still popular. The 1990 VFA Grand Final at Carlton between Springvale and Williamstown was a full house. By then though, Brunswick had a failed merger attempt with Broadmeadows (gone by the mid-90's - the Combine was a classic)..Camberwell had truly bitten the dust - with eventually Dandenong, Oakleigh and Prahran absorbed into the TAC Cup.

That said, the VFA did try a move into regional football. it admitted North Ballarat and Traralgon first - the latter famously coached by Joffa Cunningham. Bendigo would replace Traralgon.

 

[mediumsizered]

I'd argue the two most famous recruits for the VFA were Ron Todd and Bob Pratt - both VFL superstars who were lured to the VFA (Williamstown and Coburg respectively, I think) for more money.

Fair comment, but you could probably add Des Fothergill & Harry Vallance who also found their way to Williamstown & Laurie Nash who found his way to Camberwell. Ron Todd was probably the biggest signing, though, given he was only 23 years of age when signed by Williamstown, coming off consecutive 100+ goal seasons for Collingwood. He was offered 500 pounds to join Williamstown, a great deal more than he was receiving at Collingwood. Not far behind was Des Fothergill, who joined Williamstown in 1941 after winning a Brownlow Medal in 1940.

On the other hand Fred Cook had struggled to cement a permanent position at Footscray, playing 33 games over 3 seasons. He actually played with Yarraville, prior to joining Port Melbourne. There is no doubt he became one of the VFA's biggest names, but he certainly was not a big name signing from the VFL.

 

[finders]

I think Australian Football supporters should be thankfull that the VFA paved the way for our great game in its founding years.
I hope the AFL dosent do its usual downgrading of the the VFAs important early role 1877 - 1896 in the promotion of our game in its 150 year celebrations next year.
Younger AFL fans probabily dont realise that ALL the current AFL clubs in Melbourne plus Fitzroy and the Swans started out as VFA clubs.They all have a VFA history.

The current VFL (sic) is nothing like the passionate clubs that made up the VFA in its heyday and it will never reach those heights again as this made up comp is more and more becoming the AFL reserves.

 

[FlyingCrow]

Seriously interesting stuff. Seems like the VFL broke away from the VFA. Bit like World Series and Super League in Rugby. Anyone think there would be a possibility of Some of th more supported and Financial CLubs Breaking away again. I guess the AFL have made it ahrd though, owning jumper and naming rights to all 16 clubs. But a 10 team Superleague of Footy would be good.

 

[pazza]

Thing is though - it nearly happened again in the 1970's. There was a concept called the National Football League Of Australia, based out of Adelaide. It's idea was to shut out the VFL. It nearly worked. The return of the night series started with the SANFL and WAFL clubs driving it and only "inviting" 5 VFL clubs to participate.

 

[FlyingCrow]

Thing is though - it nearly happened again in the 1970's. There was a concept called the National Football League Of Australia, based out of Adelaide. It's idea was to shut out the VFL. It nearly worked. The return of the night series started with the SANFL and WAFL clubs driving it and only "inviting" 5 VFL clubs to participate.

True, in the 70s there was a push by the SANFL to go national. I wasnt around, I am only 28, but footy history is a minor hobby of mine, its how i found this site. The SANFL in the 70s was probably more profesionally run, clubs being run like businesses and such, but our state economy and population was not as good as Victorias so it never really took off. Add to that the conservative nature of the league.

In the 80s SANFL tooka bit of a dive. VFL asked us to join as early as 1980. SA held off, then Port jumped the gun. They had to, SA needed a team in the AFL and the SANFL wanted to hold off even longer.

 

[Neville Bartos]

Would have sucked to be a gun VFA player when the leagues were relatively competitive, then try and brag to your grandkids these days and they'd just laugh at you

 

[TheGreatBarryB]

I think Channel 7 unfortunately cause the eventual demise of the VFA by combining with the VFL to convince the Hamer Government to grant Sunday VFL football.

That said, the VFA were responsible for bringing quality football to the growing suburbs, by introducing the second division in the 1960's.

Clubs like Kilsyth, Berwick, Waverley, Werribee, Box Hill were starting to come along, alongside the likes of Sunshine, Yarraville, Geelong West etc.

I remember 1988 very well. The second division was disbanded - and clubs like Geelong West, Sunshine, Yarraville, Kilsyth, Waverley bit the dust.

The remaining clubs: Brunswick, Box Hill, Camberwell, Coburg, Dandenong, Frankston, Oakleigh, Port Melbourne, Prahran, Preston, Sandringham, Springvale, Werribee, Williamstown.

It was still popular. The 1990 VFA Grand Final at Carlton between Springvale and Williamstown was a full house. By then though, Brunswick had a failed merger attempt with Broadmeadows (gone by the mid-90's - the Combine was a classic)..Camberwell had truly bitten the dust - with eventually Dandenong, Oakleigh and Prahran absorbed into the TAC Cup.

That said, the VFA did try a move into regional football. it admitted North Ballarat and Traralgon first - the latter famously coached by Joffa Cunningham. Bendigo would replace Traralgon.

I still remember a game at Werribee in late 80's when Werribee had just been admitted to the 1st Division. They got a crowd of just under 10,000 against Williamstown. Still a record for that ground I think.

Loved the VFA in the 70's and 80's, so many characters, so many blues, so much attacking footy. Great stuff, gees I miss it.

 

[mediumsizered]

I still remember a game at Werribee in late 80's when Werribee had just been admitted to the 1st Division. They got a crowd of just under 10,000 against Williamstown. Still a record for that ground I think.
Loved the VFA in the 70's and 80's, so many characters, so many blues, so much attacking footy. Great stuff, gees I miss it.

I remember going to see Coburg v Preston in the last round of 1973, at Coburg. A battle to avoid relegation & the ground was absolutely packed. My brother & I arrived just before the game started & were only able to make our way as far the forward pocket at the Harding St end of the ground. Our attempt to make our way around to the flanks or wings was thwarted by the crowd being packed shoulder-to-shoulder. Such a contrast to my last trip to Coburg 4-5 years ago when there would have been lucky to be 200 people there.

 

[pazza]

To get 10000 into Chirnside Park would have been mad. I think the last time they got more than 3000 there was in the first yeasr of the VFL with all the Essendon fans!