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Review When does the Penny drop for Sando

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maxlilly said:
Sando keeps telling us that he doesn't like open & fast flowing footy, 'That's not our style'
Then we play the two most contested footy teams in Freo & Sydney and are clearly found wanting.
It looked like we didn't learn anything from the final we lost to Sydney last year, as we played exactly the same gameplan and got the same result.
It almost looked like the players didn't have any confidence in our gameplan against Sydney either.
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I find it i worrying because we appear to have players capable of playing open football well.
 
I can see why Sando wants to keep playing Porps (even Jacobs) through their bad periods.

They are some the players on our list outside of Danger, Sloane, Thommo who can make this side great. I think he gambled on them hitting form, and us being in a better position than we are in right now.
 
Slippery Pete said:
And we have a winner.
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All the current good small forwards also offer good PACE and just as important DEFENSIVE skills, two things Callinan is not overly blessed with, take away his footy smarts and he has little to offer especially at his age. Jaensch is the boy we should be perservering with in this role as IMO he has the required pace and footy smarts along with a far more penetrating kick than Callinan, admittedly both he and Callinan have ordinary defensive skills but Jaensch is still young enough to work on that aspect of his all round game, Callinan does not!!! Callinan is not the future of the AFC, Jaensch may be!!
 

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maxlilly said:
Sando keeps telling us that he doesn't like open & fast flowing footy, 'That's not our style'
Then we play the two most contested footy teams in Freo & Sydney and are clearly found wanting.
It looked like we didn't learn anything from the final we lost to Sydney last year, as we played exactly the same gameplan and got the same result.
It almost looked like the players didn't have any confidence in our gameplan against Sydney either.
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Yes - we should have seen the writing on the wall after the first quarter. They counterpunched through our defense and scored on the rebound - easily. The second and third quarters were surreal in badness! We were hunted in packs and given no space and time, they knocked the ball clear and had outsiders who recieved and ran with it. WTF were we thinking? With Sydney you go man to man and make it as ugly as possible -you can not play like we did and NOT get punished for it. Dumb play and dumb coaching. I just hope we dont try the same style against the Tiggers. We nearly pulled it off against FreeHo -sans some shocking defending in the last quarter (2 goals, one minute -see ya) and the three minute disgrace of a goal review!

MUST win coming up -just show what the team served up in the second and third quarters - that should get them steamed up.
 
On the AFC site Vince has flagged the Crows will take more risks this weekend. Its not Sando speaking but its a sign that the ultra safe conservative style may be undergoing some changes. I hope so. I haven't heard the 'risk taking' words for so long! We cannot plod on in the same predictable fashion, just playing into the oppositions hands.

Sando words actually are 'the open free flowing game doesn't suit us'. He may be right because we are not the zippiest side around, but there is a (shouldn't say this) a 'robotic' nature to playing the same line, the same pattern etc to set up the next contest. When the same play is repeated, with players slogging their guts out, to then have their play 'cut off at the pass' and boomeranged back, it takes the edge off their spirit. As most of us know, just trying harder with more intensity doesn't always fix the problem.
 
Lawrst said:
I can see why Sando wants to keep playing Porps (even Jacobs) through their bad periods.

They are some the players on our list outside of Danger, Sloane, Thommo who can make this side great. I think he gambled on them hitting form, and us being in a better position than we are in right now.
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This is spot on....
Everyone needs to breathe and absorb this post.

For us to be a threat this year, we needed certain players to hit form...
None more than Jacobs...
With Walker going down, we need a bloke up forward with class. Porps was worth persisting with...
We lack players with class and foot skills. Bernie Vince
We lack outside run. David Mackay
Our small defenders lack experience... Brent Reilly

I can 100% understand why Sando has given these players every opportunity to hit form.

We had a shitter on the weekend. Hawthorn got belted last year by Richmond by the same amount... The only difference being we got beaten by the reigning Premier. Get over it and stop bagging Sando
 
Bacon8 said:
Pretty sure Josh Kennedy wanted to stay at Carltank. And Lachie Henderson at Brisbane.
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True, plenty of examples from other clubs but I was under the impression that the conversation was about the Crows and how we have traded.
 
We have all this talk from VB and the coach and others, talk, talk, talk, talk always more talk never any action, like how they send out emails encouraging people to come along to big games against Collingwood and other teams and then end up losing.

I'm sick of this talk shit, when you're talking, you're not doing. You don't tell someone you're going to punch them in the head, if you're actually going to, you just do it. I know the media demands sound bytes and things it can print in shitty rags like the Advertiser, but I am sick of it.

Oh and by action I do not mean the type of wasteful crap displayed early in the first and third quarters on the weekend, effort without direction is worthless. Footy isn't that complicated ffs. Sydney were good last weekend, but I saw too much player watching from the Crows, not even ball watching, player watching. When it is your time to go, you go. There were more contests than i can recall on the weekend where players went at about 40% pace. A very simple thing to do is put pressure on your opponent in a contest, they go for the ball and you sprint your hardest to spoil crashing into them, make them earn the ball, you may give away a free, but that type of pressure makes a person think twice and hesitate when they go for the ball and when they dispose of it, the bruise free shit on display on Saturday gives the opposition supreme confidence, which showed in the way Sydney moved the ball.

When I see a Crows player running towards a contest and they slow up when it looks like the opposition will get the ball, they are conceding, that is the lowest percentage choice and they may as well wave a white flag and forfeit, and it is something I think has been wrong with the Crows game for years, I think they are too nice. It shows the opposition that you are giving up, it shows them that you cannot be bothered trying and I can tell you that gives the opposition players a massive boost. If the opposition think they can do what they want, if they think they can mark without anything knocking into them, if they think they can dispose without being tackled, then they will will, they will start playing as if they can do whatever they want, they take risks that pay off, but against the Crows there are no risks because the Crows are the softest, handbagging, squibbing side in the AFL.
 
skoobydoo said:
On the AFC site Vince has flagged the Crows will take more risks this weekend. Its not Sando speaking but its a sign that the ultra safe conservative style may be undergoing some changes. I hope so. I haven't heard the 'risk taking' words for so long! We cannot plod on in the same predictable fashion, just playing into the oppositions hands.

Sando words actually are 'the open free flowing game doesn't suit us'. He may be right because we are not the zippiest side around, but there is a (shouldn't say this) a 'robotic' nature to playing the same line, the same pattern etc to set up the next contest. When the same play is repeated, with players slogging their guts out, to then have their play 'cut off at the pass' and boomeranged back, it takes the edge off their spirit. As most of us know, just trying harder with more intensity doesn't always fix the problem.
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This is a salient post, as we've heard Sanderson say numerous times that shootouts don't suit us, and when the ball is on the outside of the contest it's usually not on our terms.
 
Slippery Pete said:
This is a salient post, as we've heard Sanderson say numerous times that shootouts don't suit us, and when the ball is on the outside of the contest it's usually not on our terms.
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This is only because we have a team of inside mids with no real spreaders bar maybe Sloane. We have one of the quickest players in the league and we continually use him as a battering ram I think its time to start trying to get Patty on the outside more. Similar to what Blighty did with Roo
 
Lawrst said:
I can see why Sando wants to keep playing Porps (even Jacobs) through their bad periods.

They are some the players on our list outside of Danger, Sloane, Thommo who can make this side great. I think he gambled on them hitting form, and us being in a better position than we are in right now.
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It's one thing to carry a player for a few games to come good, it is another for nearly all the year! Porps doesn't even look like getting his confidence back - surely we are better off playing someone else in form & getting Porps back at Westies to find form, so he can get back into the side ASAP. He is not a critical player to our setup - but used to be a matchwinner. Stiffy is doing more as a forward in the SANFL.

Jacobs on the other hand we need to be more patient with, as we don't have any quality backups.
 
maxlilly said:
Sando keeps telling us that he doesn't like open & fast flowing footy, 'That's not our style'
Then we play the two most contested footy teams in Freo & Sydney and are clearly found wanting.
It looked like we didn't learn anything from the final we lost to Sydney last year, as we played exactly the same gameplan and got the same result.
It almost looked like the players didn't have any confidence in our gameplan against Sydney either.
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Meh.

If Sando really believes this, then he's getting some terrible advice, or is an idiot.

Our best footy is open, fast, creative and attacking.

We lost a prelim because he selected two woefully out of form (one who was injured) players for it. If he hadn't, and it was bloody obvious, we would've won.

If we changed everything off of the back of that, then we are absolute morons.
 

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From the outside it looks lik we are struggling to find the right tension between the inside and outside game

Geelong at it's best in it's premiership winning years were not only great at winning stoppages but also killed you with overlapping run through the middle

With us it seems like contested ball was the focus in 2012 and in 2013 Sando has rightly so tried to add a higher level off attck to our game however our pkayers have struggled to evolve to this without compromising our inside game

It all comes back to having the right players in the right roles
 
xchadders said:
both? mental - because it looks like we're just resting on last years achievements, physical - when was the last time any crow crunched an opposition or even lay a full on tackle? we just dont do it.

no, sydney arent that good. but yes we are that bad - or at least was in that game.
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petrenko has laid two pretty big hits in the last two weeks. At least there is one a game...
 

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King Elvis said:
Meh.

If Sando really believes this, then he's getting some terrible advice, or is an idiot.

Our best footy is open, fast, creative and attacking.

We lost a prelim because he selected two woefully out of form (one who was injured) players for it. If he hadn't, and it was bloody obvious, we would've won.

If we changed everything off of the back of that, then we are absolute morons.
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Seriously not only are you a better coach than Sando you can also predict what would have happened in different circumstances?

Please can I have the x-lotto numbers for Saturday night? Better yet if I buy the ticket from one newsagent over another will my chances improve? Please tell me oh wise one :rolleyes:
 
We lost the prelim by under a kick, we had two players who barely contributed ANYTHING.

It doesn't take Nostradamus to realise that if we had a better contribution from those players (hell, if Callinan could hit Dangerfield on the chest), then we almost certainly would've won.

You're right though, Sando is obviously killing it this year, so I probably shouldn't question him.

If he has changed our game style, it's been a roaring success, so I won't question that either.
 
James_37 said:
Quite frankly I think this game was lost in the preseason, forget about effort etc it is Sando's job to prepare our side to tackle the best of the best. I personally don't think our effort was that bad, it was our ability to apply a gameplan that is both shallow and out of date. A simple, contested ball game plan may have worked for much of last year in light of Craigy's overly complex, impossible to implement gameplan, but we needed to progress and we didn't.

For mine it all started with the Sydney final. It was clear that they had studied us, they came to Footy Park with a gameplan to systematically dismantle us. We were exposed, it was too soon for Fremantle and Hawthorn to adjust so we managed pretty good games against those sides, giving us a false sense of our own ability, although there were times where both gave us the run around. Since then though, the better coached sides have both progressed in their game plan and used Sydney's plan as a blue print to beat us. Sides like Essendon, Port Adelaide, Carlton, Sydney and even the Kangaroos before they choked at the end of each quarter, have dismantled us, Geelong did it in the preseason. For mine that Sydney game highlighted 3 massive short comings in our game:

1) Tackling - And its not so much the intent of our players, they all go in hard and try to tackle hard, I don't doubt this, they just don't know HOW to lay an effective tackle. Too many thick skulled Rugby players have been brought in to teach us and its all about bringing the guy to ground, less about the ball. In Rugby, guys try their hardest to hold onto the ball whilst being tackled, they don't want to lose possession, in AFL guys will try their hardest to get arms free and dish off to a team mate. Instead of turning to Rugby, we should be turning to Martial Arts such as Judo where they focus much more on the physics of tackling, understand where guys are at their strongest and where they are their weakest and how to lock the arms etc.

2) Foot skills - Were sub par last year and it was clear that if we were to progress as a football club, we should look to improve this area of our game, especially our ability to fire off quick, low 20-30m passes accurately. Hawthorn and Geelong do this especially well, Sydney too. We cannot just rely on long 50+ meter bombs to 50-50 contests from stoppage situations to win games, especially since Tippett left and even more so now that we have lost Walker for 12 months. It was these two that kept us from getting blown away in that Hawthorn final, where otherwise they may have slaughtered us.

3) Rebound 50 - Under Craig, it was the key to our game plan. We won games off of our ability to bring the ball out of the backline, if the opposition could shut down our run they would more than likely win. Even late in Craigy' tenure, if we could get on top with our drive from the back half we could challenge anyone. We've now seemingly abandoned this completely and now rely solely on clearances. As others have highlighted already, our ability to bring the ball out of D50, especially from kickouts is woeful. More often than not its just a long bomb to a contest on the half back flank to a ruckman who'd struggle to outmark Matthew Clark. IMO this is where we are seriously missing Ben Hart, Milburn is probably a decent coach, but of our 4-5 assistant coaches under Craig, he was probably the one we could least afford to lose and yet the only one we lost. You chat to any of our defenders who worked under Hart and they will tell you as much.

Where to now? Well these aren't things that can generally be fixed mid-season, more and more seasons are set up by a good preseason. Ours was a disaster in all aspects, we somehow deluded ourselves that our gameplan needed minimal changes, Sando said as much on multiple occasions, whilst our opponents went about improving their gameplans. Fk look at Sydney, they weren't that good last year, Geelong similar, Hawthorn are about the same, but then they added to their weakness in the backline with Brian Lake.

This year is looking more and more like a carbon copy of 2010, I just hope we don't fall for the whole "this is just a hicup" we'll be right next year attitude that lead to Craig's ultimate demise, especially the "we may be 0-6 attitude, but we could still make finals" outlook. We need to start preparing for next year now, it would take a miracle to even get close to a Prelim, let alone a grand final now, and that miracle would have to involve Taylor Walker undergoing some radical medical procedure to speed up the recovery time from an ACL reconstruction. We are no hope of defeating top 4 sides without a dominant forward like Walker to absorb much of the opposition defenses attention.

I'm not suggesting we start pensioning off everyone over 25 years of age, or upgrading guys straight from the SANFL reserves. However guys like Lyons, Riley or Grigg who are consistently in the best 3 for their SANFL club need to be given opportunities. If a senior guy, like Porplyzia is not performing on a consistent basis, give him a run in the magoos to see if he can't recapture some form. We also need to start working on a more offensive style game plan for next year, one that allows us to score quickly and not rely solely on winning centre clearances.
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I've read a lot of good comments made here, but these comments from James_37 have nailed it best of all. The specific details raised in those 3 points are absolutely spot-on....and damning. We do need to lift. Or more specifically - change.

I've tried to make some similar comments regarding our tackling previously, but you've described it best of all. In regards to relying solely on centre clearances - we have no method or ability to chase and win back the ball if we don't get it first. We rely on the opposition stuffing up their kicks, which they aren't doing.

If we're seriously behind on the scoreboard, like we were against North Melbourne, then I'm all for 50+ metre long bombs, and playing on at all costs. And I also think that winning clearances is the most sucessful way to score quick goals. But like James_37 said, we now rely solely on winning from clearances, and the same seems to apply to endless long bombs. We need another string to our bow. I believe it's less about effort, and more about method.
 

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