When is it time to prepare for 2011?

[KUNG FU]

Probably around 2008 I would have thought. Seriously - and I believe the club was.

Whatever plans there were seem to have gone astray at the moment however.

Will be interesting to see if they change their philosphy/approach at all due the unexpectedly poor performances so far this season.

You'd think that would be the make or break of another contract for Craigy.

Agreed.

 

[relapse]

I think this is something you've got to give until about the mid-season break, I don't think we should give up just yet, we've lost 5 matches in a row before and still made the finals.

If we're still only 0-2 wins, however, then we start to blood a couple of youngsters, look at resting a few of those underdone/niggly injury type players and perhaps phasing out a couple of the older blokes who probably won't be here next year. I wouldn't want to see us drop too many however, as I'd like to see our youngsters develop in a competitive side, not one that gets smashed from pillar to post each week.

There is a difference between losing five games in a row and being five games off the pace in your win/loss ratio.

Our win loss ratio is the big problem for us, so while we have lost five in a row and made the finals before, we have never actually been five games off the pace like we currently are and still made the finals. Losing five in a row in 2008 and our record falling from 8-3 to 8-8 is not the same as losing 5 in a row and having a record of 0-5, 5 wins is too much ground to try and make up.

 

[Mr Crow!]

There's no point overloading on inexperienced players because they won't learn anything getting arse r*ped while playing stay afloat footy.

Perhaps we need to develop and incorporate some anti-arse-raping drills in training?

 

[dogs105]

There is a difference between losing five games in a row and being five games off the pace in your win/loss ratio.

Theoretically though, it doesn't matter when you lose the 5 in a row. If you still manage to win 12 of the other 17 (which we must have done in 2007).

Psychologically though, it is probably a bit harder.

 

[Vader]

There is a difference between losing five games in a row and being five games off the pace in your win/loss ratio.

We're not 5 games off the pace in our win/loss ratio. We're 0-5. The team currently ranked #1 is 4-1 and the 8th placed team is 3-2. By my count that makes us 3 games off the pace.

That said, we've been extremely uncompetitive in all 5 of our games and we might as well be 10 games off the pace...

 

[Vader]

I think we need to go with our best team for at least the next 2 games.

R6 - Firstly, it's a showdown. More than any other non-final, I want us to win the showdowns because I hate Port. At 0-5 we're (theoretically) not completely out of it. Win this one and we're 1-5 with Richmond to follow and the vague hope of running some players into a bit of form. We're not so far gone just yet that we should be throwing in the towel ahead of this week's game.

R7 - Richmond. We need to win this one for our own sense of pride and wellbeing. Lose this one and we might have people slitting their virtual wrists on the board.

If we're 0-7 or 1-6 after R7, then it's time to put the cue in the rack, ditch Edwards, Burton and Doughty (in that order) and start playing the youngsters. If we're 2-5 at that stage, then we keep plugging on - having won 2 in a row and (hopefully) having some players beginning to play some decent footy.

 

[relapse]

We're not 5 games off the pace in our win/loss ratio. We're 0-5. The team currently ranked #1 is 4-1 and the 8th placed team is 3-2. By my count that makes us 3 games off the pace.

That said, we've been extremely uncompetitive in all 5 of our games and we might as well be 10 games off the pace...

The accepted benchmark most years to make the finals is 12 wins, this is what we need to be aiming at if the club is still trying to make the finals. This means we are definately five wins off the pace because we will need to make up those five wins to get to a 50% win/loss record.

 

[relapse]

Theoretically though, it doesn't matter when you lose the 5 in a row. If you still manage to win 12 of the other 17 (which we must have done in 2007).

Psychologically though, it is probably a bit harder.

Even though theortically it is the same, you could argue that the crows won 10 in a row in 2005 so we could go into the half way mark at 2-10 and say that we could still make the finals because we won 10 in a row in 2005.

The reality is that the further we are behind a 50% win/loss ratio the harder it is to make up. We havent even played Geelong, St Kilda or Collingwood yet so we are no chance to win 12 from 16 (if we lose on Saturday)

 

[courageous_tom]

Just out of curiosity, what would you do differently if we were preparing for 2011? We've already debuted a heap of players this year. Got games into Petrenko, Schmidt, Cook etc. Davis now looks like he'll get an extended run in Otten's old role.

If Sloane was fit, he would be playing at the moment. Once he returns to fitness, he will play games for Adelaide. regardless of our win/loss record.

Walker will be back into the team in the next 2-3 weeks, and will likely play 15-20 games in total this year.

McKernan, up until last week was in terrible form, playing him in the AFL would have made things worse. I think he's better left in the SANFL for the next few weeks to see if he can build some confidence, and gain the belief (like Walker) that he's too good for the SANFL.

Jaensch will be given his opportunity this weekend.

Im of the opinion that the 2009 draftees need to play at least half the season in the SANFL before coming into the team. Throwing Talia, Gunston etc into the team at the moment would achieve very little for their development.

So im not sure exactly what "puting the cue in the rack" would mean? Dropping Edwards, Burton, Doughty etc is only beneficial if theres someone remotely ready to replace them.

 

[lunacy]

I think we certainly need to have an eye towards the future. Even when you're on top of the ladder you should at least introduce 1-2 new players or at least give them a taste of AFL footy by giving them approx 5 games. Otherwise you end up like the Gary Ayres era, playing the same 22 week in week out without looking forward and all of a sudden have no depth and no young developed talent.

Now in our situation 0-5 (most likely 0-6 after this week), we must, even more so, look towards next year. However I agree the balance must be right. We must retain at least 15 core players (who will be in the team for 3+ years). Guys like Johncock, Bock, Rutten etc imo are included in this core group. We're 0-5 or 0-6, so I think we can introduce/retain approx 7 players who have played less than 20 games as long as they are playing at least good SANFL league footy.

These are the guys who regularly play good SANFL league footy and have either played a reasonable amount of SANFL footy or been in the crows system for a couple of years:
Cook
Walker
Davis
Sloane
Danger
Petrenko
McKernan
Armstrong
Young
Martin (2nd half of year)
Henderson
Schmidt
Jaensch

Gees thats not even including guys from last years draft. Most teams are playing 1-2 players from last years draft and we're below them with a 0-5 record. However, putting it in context all our guys from last years draft are 190cm+ and need more physical conditioning.

I say the players who dont have at least 3 years left in them only stay in the side if they are really playing good footy. I still think Mcleod and Goodwin are doing enough to play on next year. They shouldnt have to be in our best every week at their age. Its good to have a couple of players with such experience around the club on and off field. 5 is too many 'old' players for where we're at.

I say we concentrate on introducing/developing the players from the list above and retain the core group in the 22. Hopefully we can have a great preseason and be back up the top next year.

I dont mind having a poor year if we fast track our group of youngsters to expand our depth for next year whilst picking up a couple of lower draft picks along the way (albeit a compromised draft). Just dont want to finish between (9-13).

 

[srv23]

Perhaps we need to develop and incorporate some anti-arse-raping drills in training?

How about "No means no" followed by a swift kick to the groin

 

[srv23]

Just out of curiosity, what would you do differently if we were preparing for 2011? We've already debuted a heap of players this year. Got games into Petrenko, Schmidt, Cook etc. Davis now looks like he'll get an extended run in Otten's old role.

If Sloane was fit, he would be playing at the moment. Once he returns to fitness, he will play games for Adelaide. regardless of our win/loss record.

Walker will be back into the team in the next 2-3 weeks, and will likely play 15-20 games in total this year.

McKernan, up until last week was in terrible form, playing him in the AFL would have made things worse. I think he's better left in the SANFL for the next few weeks to see if he can build some confidence, and gain the belief (like Walker) that he's too good for the SANFL.

Jaensch will be given his opportunity this weekend.

Im of the opinion that the 2009 draftees need to play at least half the season in the SANFL before coming into the team. Throwing Talia, Gunston etc into the team at the moment would achieve very little for their development.

So im not sure exactly what "puting the cue in the rack" would mean? Dropping Edwards, Burton, Doughty etc is only beneficial if theres someone remotely ready to replace them.

This is only true if you're looking at it from a short term point of view. No-one is necessarily expecting that Armstrong Young and Hendo will come in and do the job that these guys are doing at the level that the vets are capable of. What we're saying is that if this season gets to the point of 0-7 or 1-6 with little chance of playing in finals, then the best thing for the long term development of these players is to get AFL games into them as early as possible and fast track their development.

I've read Freo supporters opinions that one of the reasons for their form improving far quicker than expected is the amount of youngsters they got AFL games into in the last 1-2 years. They didn't just play the top draftees like Hill and Suban but also got games onto Pearce, DeBoer, Van Berlo. They experienced some pain but look at those guys now.

If we honestly believe this is the best list we've ever had then at some point, if things continue as they are, we need to get games into the players we see as being the core of our best 22 for the next 10 years.

People continue to go on about how throwing in our first year draftees would be detrimental to their devlopment. Whereas I think giving them a couple of games would be really beneficial later in the season. Even Geelong have played a first year player out of necessity (Duncan) and he's been pretty impressive. Most clubs are willing to give first year players are go. As a general rule, at our club, no matter how you are performing at SANFL level, you are very unlikely to get a game in your first year. Yes we have been a finals contender for some time, but even the other top sides have shown a willingness to play first year players. Why aren't we? Especially in a situation like this season.

 

[KUNG FU]

Just out of curiosity, what would you do differently if we were preparing for 2011? We've already debuted a heap of players this year. Got games into Petrenko, Schmidt, Cook etc. Davis now looks like he'll get an extended run in Otten's old role.

This is spot on. I think the idea of "preparing for 2011" is drinking the kool-aid of failure. Accepting failure for the sake of some ambiguous long term goal. Surely the best preparation would be fixing our problems now and winning a few games. If you think our injury list is bad now, imagine what it would look like if we put 5 new green horns on the patch every week.

 

[Drugs Are Bad Mackay?]

This is spot on. I think the idea of "preparing for 2011" is drinking the kool-aid of failure. Accepting failure for the sake of some ambiguous long term goal. Surely the best preparation would be fixing our problems now and winning a few games. If you think our injury list is bad now, imagine what it would look like if we put 5 new green horns on the patch every week.

Imagine putting 5 new green horns on the patch in Round 1 next year. It's going to happen at some stage, may as well be when results don't matter.

There are plenty of kids getting games now because so many are out injured. What do we do next month when we are out of the finals race and everyone is up and about, that is the question.

 

[afc1991]

What do we do next month when we are out of the finals race and everyone is up and about, that is the question.

Pretty optimistic to think we may have a full list to pick from in a months time the way this season is going. That said if it does happen the best thing to do would be to not pick anyone who wont be there in '11... not sure that will happen though.

 

[Vader]

Pretty optimistic to think we may have a full list to pick from in a months time the way this season is going. That said if it does happen the best thing to do would be to not pick anyone who wont be there in '11... not sure that will happen though.

I wouldn't be following that policy either. The kids stand to learn a lot more from playing alongside the veterans (and losing by 50 points every week) than they do from playing without them (and losing by 100+ every week).

There has to be a balance between bringing in the kids and keeping enough experienced players around them to ensure that they get the best out of their time in the big league. Right now the balance is too far towards experience, swinging it too far back in favour of youth would be just as detrimental.

Dropping 2 of Doughty, Edwards and Burton would probably be about the right balance. Goodwin & McLeod to retain their positions no questions asked.

 

[dogs105]

Hopefully we will just win the next 5, and won't have to discuss this anymore.

 

[afc1991]

Dropping 2 of Doughty, Edwards and Burton would probably be about the right balance. Goodwin & McLeod to retain their positions no questions asked.

Seems about right.

 

[Tex200]

Just out of curiosity, what would you do differently if we were preparing for 2011? We've already debuted a heap of players this year. Got games into Petrenko, Schmidt, Cook etc. Davis now looks like he'll get an extended run in Otten's old role.

If Sloane was fit, he would be playing at the moment. Once he returns to fitness, he will play games for Adelaide. regardless of our win/loss record.

Walker will be back into the team in the next 2-3 weeks, and will likely play 15-20 games in total this year.

McKernan, up until last week was in terrible form, playing him in the AFL would have made things worse. I think he's better left in the SANFL for the next few weeks to see if he can build some confidence, and gain the belief (like Walker) that he's too good for the SANFL.

Jaensch will be given his opportunity this weekend.

Im of the opinion that the 2009 draftees need to play at least half the season in the SANFL before coming into the team. Throwing Talia, Gunston etc into the team at the moment would achieve very little for their development.

So im not sure exactly what "puting the cue in the rack" would mean? Dropping Edwards, Burton, Doughty etc is only beneficial if theres someone remotely ready to replace them.

Im doubling up on a previous post but the other thing which i bleieve must be considered if we are turning up our toes is the proper injury managment of players so they are fully fit for the 2011 pre season..players like Thompson, Vince, Tippett are said to be carrying injuries. All players need to be assessed and a rehab program that may or may not include surgery needs to be prescribed. If that means retiring a player for the rest of the season then so be it. Just get them fit for 11/2011

 

[Archie87]

Dropping 2 of Doughty, Edwards and Burton would probably be about the right balance. Goodwin & McLeod to retain their positions no questions asked.

According to the Team Thursday chat on the AFC site Doughty was one of our best last week... They probably think similar of Edwards too, is the club even watching the games?? So looks like we'll be waiting a while if we want the kids to be playing in place of what everyone else bar the club calls under-performing senior players

 

[Vader]

According to the Team Thursday chat on the AFC site Doughty was one of our best last week... They probably think similar of Edwards too, is the club even watching the games?? So looks like we'll be waiting a while if we want the kids to be playing in place of what everyone else bar the club calls under-performing senior players

The defensive side of Doughty's game WAS very good on Friday. He shut Murphy almost completely out of the game.

The problem is what happens when he gets the ball in an offensive situation, when we're trying to move the ball out of defence.

 

[Pariah]

Round 11 if we haven't won more than three games by then.

 

[KUNG FU]

Imagine putting 5 new green horns on the patch in Round 1 next year. It's going to happen at some stage, may as well be when results don't matter.

There are plenty of kids getting games now because so many are out injured. What do we do next month when we are out of the finals race and everyone is up and about, that is the question.

Well hopefully we'll have a few back from our injury list by Round 1 next year we won't be forced into that sort of situation. As you said we're already blooding a lot of new players, I don't think the solution is to blood more now, especially when playing so many youngsters at once can often lead to injury.

 

[subaru]

At the end of 2010...if I hear any white flag talk from the club I swear, I will absolutely peak! And a "5 year plan" will send me over the edge.
It didn't work for Port, and apart from the draft picks, which has obviously got Melbourne up and running, all it does is install a loser's mentality.

 

[Campbell's Chunky]

Looks like we've lost Brad Moran for the year too now.