Which Carlton players are untouchable?

[T2B_]

Kreuzer immediately comes to mind of course.

I know I go on about him, and I do admittedly love him so much perhaps I'm horribly biased, but my thinking is a player of his quality, a ruck, not yet 25... plus, most importantly right now, he's one of the few who genuinely plays for the jumper.

We don't exactly have a plethora of players who do that, can't see the point in trading one who does.

 

[HBF]

Garlett has kicked 2 goals and had 49 touches in the last four games. You can't defend his performances on the big stage. Hasn't fired against Essendon, Hawthorn, Sydney and Collingwood. Started well, but faded right out of the Collingwood game. Stark contest to Robinson is "done", yet keeps presenting and hitting packs with a bung shoulder.

Garlett doesn't have Yarran's strength over the ball. Soft compared to Buckley and Armfield who always have a crack.

We can field field all three. Yarran just has to be played up the ground. Not a small forward.

But you omit that Garlett kicked 2 against Richmond and 3 against Collingwood on a big stage.
Garlett has been more consistent as a small forward, yet Yarran still hasn't locked away a starting position on the ground. Not disputing his sublime skill, but he needs to find more consistency and even more attack on the footy.

 

[The Coach]

Garlett has kicked 2 goals and had 49 touches in the last four games. You can't defend his performances on the big stage. Hasn't fired against Essendon, Hawthorn, Sydney and Collingwood. Started well, but faded right out of the Collingwood game. Stark contest to Robinson is "done", yet keeps presenting and hitting packs with a bung shoulder.

Garlett doesn't have Yarran's strength over the ball. Soft compared to Buckley and Armfield who always have a crack.

We can field field all three. Yarran just has to be played up the ground. Not a small forward.

Except for his sub game Yazza has no more intensity credits than Jeffy. I don't think either of them enjoys the physical side of football - they're not tough enough. Sure - all players cannot be Selwoods but even Sugar showed how you can at least get involved. I would not worry too much about them playing against us as I think they would be easily intimidated - sure they may have some good games against you but they would not be the reason you would be losing to the opposn. I don't fancy him going back to being a defender because nowadays if you start hurting the opposition as a sweeper/runner they put someone on you.
Sub him again this week and hopefully he finds the intensity again and maintains it for the rest of the year to make him an untouchable

If we did not have ruck depth Kreuze would be untouchable (and I worry a trade would mess with the fabric of our club)
Murph is untouchable for ability and fabric (but do not want him captain)
Jammo and Hendo - they can play KEY DEFENCE!!!!
Juddy out of respect (along with a couple of other oldies)
Levi because we have to see what we can make of him (ps He should start on the goal line and stay deep)

 

[blues4flag]

No. Yarran's the one you keep. Betts and Garlett haven't delivered, but seem to escape this criticism. They haven't responded to Yarran being dropped and named as the sub. Yarran showed more against Sydney after he came on.

Garlett and Betts have been far better over the course of their careers than Yarran and it's not even close. Looking at it objectively and disregarding the fact that Yarran was pick 6 while we got the others for nothing.

Yarran has a world of talent but is far too inconsistent with his efforts at the moment. That said, we'd be loathe to trade any of them. They all have the ability to dominate a game of football and we already lack genuine x-factor players. Betts is proven over a long period as a consistent forward pocket (as consistent as one can be).

The other two have more strings to their bow. Yarran is unstoppable once he gets open space and Garlett is the most dynamic of the three, able to twist and weave through traffic. Both these boys are more than capable of having an impact up the ground. Not sure why Yarran's been pigeon-holed as a forward by Malthouse given the impact he's shown off half back in the past. Yes his defensive efforts are inconsistent at the moment but he's certainly got the physical characteristics to improve that aspect of the game and he seems far more likely to an impact a game down there than up forward.

 

[blues4flag]

Also I couldn't give a stuff about an unproven 17 year old who in all likelihood would take three or four years before (if) he has a genuine impact . I want a player who's going to walk right in and is capable of holding down that number 1 KPF position now.

In the words of the late Dick Pratt, get the best, not the best available. Can't see GWS giving him up for anything but somebody get us Jeremy Cameron, please.

 

[Broadside]

Also I couldn't give a stuff about an unproven 17 year old who in all likelihood would take three or four years before (if) he has a genuine impact . I want a player who's going to walk right in and is capable of holding down that number 1 KPF position now.

In the words of the late Dick Pratt, get the best, not the best available. Can't see GWS giving him up for anything but somebody get us Jeremy Cameron, please.

This is the problem....we always take short cuts but this isn't the VFL and things have changed. Judd has been a legend but he is a classic case where we thought he could fix things. So we gave up pick 3 and Kennedy for short term success. And where are we now? I hope we don't go for Dale Thomas at end of season, as good as he is, he will just paper over cracks like Judd has. And unless we build from the ground up we can expect - and deserve - another decade of mediocrity.

Our culture is a joke. When was the last time the team flew the flag? Not when Carrazzo got ridden into the ground last year vs the Bombers, not when Hodge cracked our captain's cheekbone (fairly, but that is irrelevant).



Can you smell what the Blues are cooking?

 

[etsal1]

If Yarran (pick 6) is going to play as a small forward for his career, I would trade him in a heartbeat for Tom Boyd ( of course we'd have to add something else in). We all say build his tank and put him in the guts, but he was drafted in 2008 (same as Robbo) and for me, I'm getting a bit fed up of him choosing when he plays and applies himself.

 

[blues4flag]

This is the problem....we always take short cuts but this isn't the VFL and things have changed. Judd has been a legend but he is a classic case where we thought he could fix things. So we gave up pick 3 and Kennedy for short term success. And where are we now? I hope we don't go for Dale Thomas at end of season, as good as he is, he will just paper over cracks like Judd has. And unless we build from the ground up we can expect - and deserve - another decade of mediocrity.

Our culture is a joke. When was the last time the team flew the flag? Not when Carrazzo got ridden into the ground last year vs the Bombers, not when Hodge cracked our captain's cheekbone (fairly, but that is irrelevant).



Can you smell what the Blues are cooking?

Of course I was being facetious as we're not going to get Cameron. However I'd much rather trade for someone proven than a number one draft pick who's largely unknown.

Also I'd take Judd again in a heartbeat. He brought far more to the club than just on field performances.

 

[Broadside]

Also I'd take Judd again in a heartbeat. He brought far more to the club than just on field performances.

I used to think that too but 5 years later when the team goes missing he is still the only one busting a gut. His example was not enough for those around him. We still have major cultural issues it seems. And are soft.

 

[Quazza]

unless you're a Lebron James, no one is untouchable

we don't have a Lebron James

 

[Silvagnis]

Garlett and Betts have been far better over the course of their careers than Yarran and it's not even close. Looking at it objectively and disregarding the fact that Yarran was pick 6 while we got the others for nothing.

Yarran has a world of talent but is far too inconsistent with his efforts at the moment. That said, we'd be loathe to trade any of them. They all have the ability to dominate a game of football and we already lack genuine x-factor players. Betts is proven over a long period as a consistent forward pocket (as consistent as one can be).

The other two have more strings to their bow. Yarran is unstoppable once he gets open space and Garlett is the most dynamic of the three, able to twist and weave through traffic. Both these boys are more than capable of having an impact up the ground. Not sure why Yarran's been pigeon-holed as a forward by Malthouse given the impact he's shown off half back in the past. Yes his defensive efforts are inconsistent at the moment but he's certainly got the physical characteristics to improve that aspect of the game and he seems far more likely to an impact a game down there than up forward.

Yarran was better last year. Tie in 2011 with Yarran playing off half back with Garlett equally good forward. Garlett struggled last year, but like Betts, he can still get shutdown by stronger opponents. Yarran has a better build to mix it against these players.

Yarran is the most dynamic player with his pace, field kicking, agility, vision and strength (when he's on). Garlett doesn't really rip the ball off the boot like Yarran. Yarran was playing half back, but he was great in that role because he plays like a wingman and cuts sides up. Need him on the wing and around the ball. Lot better at ducking and weaving his way out of trouble due to his skills on both sides.

Don't know how he got past three defenders to find Kreuzer last night. He's set up goals in the past by after winning the hard ball and diving under the tacklers to slip it out. Wasted as a forward that takes him out of the play.

 

[The Coach]

Yarran's was better last year. Tie in 2011 with Yarran playing off half back with Garlett equally good forward. Garlett struggled last year, but like Betts, he can still get shutdown by stronger opponents. Yarran has a better build to mix it against these players.

Yarran is the most dynamic player with his pace, field kicking, agility, vision and strength (when he's on). Garlett doesn't really rip the ball off the boot like Yarran. Yarran was playing half back, but he was great in that role because he plays like a wingman and cuts sides up. Need him on the wing and around the ball. Lot better at ducking and weaving his way out of trouble due to his skills on both sides. Don't know how he got past three defenders to find Kreuzer last night. He's set up goals in the past by after winning the hard ball and diving under the tacklers to slip it out. Wasted as a forward that takes him out of the play.

If either of them was as efficient as Andrew Krak I would be wrapped - how good a pass is he

 

[blues4flag]

I used to think that too but 5 years later when the team goes missing he is still the only one busting a gut. His example was not enough for those around him. We still have major cultural issues it seems. And are soft.

We were rubbish pre-Judd. We got to within a kick of a preliminary final in 2011, just losing at Subi without Gibbs in the side. We weren't a poor footy side then.

We had perhaps our worst run with injury in a decade in 2012. A still slightly naive coach with rash predictions, a vocal supporter group and an administration without the patience to properly assess a situation nor the fortitude to withstand the external pressure saw us sack a coach who previously had done pretty well with the group.

We now take a step or two back and have to learn to adopt to a coach with a vastly different gamestyle. We've been adapting pretty well as our competitive performances against top 4 teams show. I don't know what to put yesterday to - I hope it's just the byproduct of a brutal game in the wet against the reigning premiers but the players don't get off that easy.

As bad as the loss was, it doesn't reflect where we are as a footy side. Our ladder position doesn't reflect where we are as a footy side. Malthouse speaks about his process and it's coming along. I doubt that it'll culminate in a premiership (now or in the next 2 years) as there are gaping holes in our list but it's clear that Mick values structures over individual brilliance.

 

[Garth Vader]

IMO Kreuze, Smurph, Hendo, Gibbs, Carrots, Judd, Betts and Barker are untouchables.

Edit: Tempted to add McGinness (Can't remember spelling :-( )

 

[Silvagnis]

If either of them was as efficient as Andrew Krak I would be wrapped - how good a pass is he

What?

 

[BM123]

Murphy Judd Simpson Henderson McInnes Graham Menzel Tuohy Walker Bootsma Carrazzo

EDIT: Temay too

 

[OldBlueFan]

For those bagging Jeff, please remember that this is probably the first year that teams have seen him as the most dangerous threat of the three. I reckon far more work has gone into Jeff by opposition MCs than ever before. He had a blistering start to the season. At the start of the game last night, he showed that at least he's not suffering the crisis of confidence that afflicted him last year. I reckon he needs time to work through it.

Unfortunately, what we've also seen is that the other forwards haven't been able to stand up while Jeff's been held (apart from Jarrad's one blinder in the last 4 weeks).

At the same time, I agree with TG that Yarran would be more beneficial to the team up the ground and going through the middle in patches. If he doesn't get traded (due to the same impatient forces that saw Ratts gone) I too hope that they get him working on endurance and strength in the off-seasson. He might lose a yard of place (he can afford that) but his core seems strong so I think he could eventually be something of a bull mid, but with vision, evasion and quality disposal. These are such rare qualities in our midfield, I think we can ill-afford to lose the one player who's almost ready to bring them (as I thought he showed when he came on against Sydney last week).

As to the topic of the thread, I can remember a few years ago when Collingwood were really just also-rans. Yeah, they were better than we are now, but they had their disappointing moments. In fact, they were so desperate for more success that their president effectively sacked their coach and told him he'd be replaced in 2 years. During that off season, they recruited 2 players and went on to win the flag (and play in the grand final the following year).

I'm not for one minute suggesting that Carlton need just two players, but it shows what two important pieces in a team of 22 players can do.

Next year, we should already be adding Menzel, McInnes and possibly Graham to the team that's played thus far in 2013. On that basis, if we can add 2 or 3 more quality footballers in the off-season, we'll see 5 or possibly 6 changes to the starting 22.

I would suggest that 2014 Carlton will be vastly different to 2013 Carlton, without having to trade out whole swathes of the team.

 

[The Coach]

What?

Watch the game again - Kraka's passing is magnificent

 

[Silvagnis]

No more than Yarran who kicks well with both feet.

 

[ESKIE]

If they trade Kreuzer.........

I will be..............

Effing furious

 

[true blue19]

If we trade out all our players are we really going to be any better???
If we trade kreuzer/yarran/Gibbs or whoever for pick 1 (Boyd), with the idea that Boyd will make us better. Kreuzer was going to be superstar before he was drafted the same with Gibbs he was going to be our next captain and yarran was meant to be the most talented player in his draft. None of these players have live up to there hype but what if Boyd doesn't live up to his hype and is just a good player. Don't get me wrong i would like Boyd in navy blue but he won't win us a flag before judd hangs up the boots.

We need to trade our excess to cover our needs. We have excess in the ruck and small/ medium forwards and defenders. We need tall forwards and defenders and some more pure midfielders.

Rucks- kreuzer, warnock and Hampson are the only ones that have value. Rowe and casboult should stay.

Small/med forwards- betts, garlett, yarran one of these 3 need to cant play in the same team. Need to resign betts so we don't lose him for FA. So it needs to be Garlett or Yarran. Armfield is solid as a defencive forword and would get little in return. Menzel is developing, Collins to be delisted.

Small/ med defenders- Walker, Duigan, Laidler and Tuohy have value. Bootsma, McInnes and white are developing. O'Keeffe, Joseph and Davies should be delisted.

I would look at trading Warnock, Hampson, Yarran, Duigan and Laidler. Delist Collins, O'Keeffe, Joseph, Davies, Ellard.

Plus we need to look at FA and get daisy

 

[Broadside]

If we trade out all our players are we really going to be any better???

Don't get me wrong i would like Boyd in navy blue but he won't win us a flag before judd hangs up the boots.

Plus we need to look at FA and get daisy

time to rebuild, Daisy would be papering over cracks, nothing more

our window with Juddy is closed, unfortunately

 

[pumped]

The ones I would want to keep are Menzel, Murphy, prob Gibbs, Simpson, Buckley, Kruz, McLean, Henderson, McInnes, Cachia. Others could be traded or delisted. Also rate Jamison and Robbo but feel injuries are an issue. We need players who can be consistently available and consistent in their output levels. Also wondering if Judd could be a carrot for GWS for the no 1 pick. Great player but coming down to his last year or two and his disposal is becoming a concern.

 

[jonoman89]

Judd, Murphy, Henderson, Jamison. Maybe Walker.

Everyone else on the list has a price. Fail to see how Kreuzer and Gibbs are untouchable. Their output has been sub-par regardless of injury or positional issues.

 

[Silvagnis]

Judd, Murphy, Henderson, Jamison. Maybe Walker.

Everyone else on the list has a price. Fail to see how Kreuzer and Gibbs are untouchable. Their output has been sub-par regardless of injury or positional issues.

In finals, your big men and hard players set the tone in games where you need to smash bodies. Geelong and Brisbane always relied on Ottens and Keating standing up in September. Robinson gets bashed for his flaws, yet was our best mid in the WC final with his desire and fearless approach. Our team is more icing than cake ATM. Can't afford to lose Kreuzer.