Who was the better player? Tim Watson or Doug Hawkins ?

[krisholio14]

huh at second part. I don't think the channel 7 coverage of matches was decided by the ground it was played at. It was more or less decided by trying to put the 3 best games on the replay on Saturday night.

As for Wilson. I cannot recall when he started. I started watching footy in 1978 so I not sure when he started but felt like I saw a lot of him. Can't remember when he retired. Surely he was playing in 1986 when Fitzroy eliminated Essendon at Waverley. Remember being at the final in the wet. I swear Wilson was playing then. How many seasons before 1978 to Wilson play. It seems from what you are saying he started in late 1960's or something.

If one of the big teams was playing Melbourne at the G, they would usually show it. They never used to show the three best games, they would usually try to do the match of the day, and the game at either MCG or Waverley. The third game usually only got cursory coverage, often just a highlights package with a voice over.

Wilson started playing in 71 and retired at the end of 84. Fitzroy didn't become TV regulars until 79 when they made the finals for the first time in nearly 20 years.

 

[krisholio14]

I disagree. Wilson started in 1971 and was a star of the 70s mainly. Fitzroy didnt make finals in his career until 79 and played 7 finals for 2 wins in the years he played at the club, mostly his twilight years

Hawkins also played through an era when the Dogs played a total of 7 finals for 2 wins interestingly. Difference was in the 70s (Hawkins played 78-94) football on the TV consisted of footy replay on Sat night where quarter was replayed form 2 different matches, hardly ever Fitzroy or the Dogs. There would be hardly any footage even made of Wilson and his career and any that was there has largely been wiped by Channel seven. Hawkins finished his career a decade later when the amount of vision from each match had increased a lot so we ended up seeing much more of him on the screen in my recollection.

There is hardly ant tape left of footy matches from the 70s and very little was taped in the 1st place.

Fortunately a lot of people kept their homemade tapes of footy highlights from the 70's and these are steadily finding their way onto youtube.

 

[footyfan1978]

Wilson started playing in 71 and retired at the end of 84. Fitzroy didn't become TV regulars until 79 when they made the finals for the first time in nearly 20 years.

aha. So he was done in 1984. Did not realize he retired that early in terms of what I had been watching.
I started watching in 1978 so seeing Fitzroy in finals in 1979 and then 1981, 82 they won 12 and a draw but missed finals as sixth on ladder and then 1983 and 84 they also were finalist. So a lot of that period they were a good side to watch and on tv quite a bit on replay. Not as much as Carlton and Hawks but way more than the Bulldogs etc down near bottom. Hence saw Wilson on tv a lot in first period of me following the game than the small amount of Dougie Hawkins in his prime in this period. Did love seeing Dougie the two or three times Dogs got on tv in those seasons.

 

[footyfan1978]

Fortunately a lot of people kept their homemade tapes of footy highlights from the 70's and these are steadily finding their way onto youtube.

I only wish I had kept the tapes...lol
So annoyed not having them. Unfortunately I just a little kid so anything recorded once watched, then re-recorded over with something else. We had a beta video at first then VHS later. I still remember there is a copy of the 1980 Centenary Test recordings from channel 2 at time which did not get recorded over. Wish I could find it as would love to see the Kim Hughes innings of that match that was very memorable despite the game itself washed out for much of it.

 

[krisholio14]

aha. So he was done in 1984. Did not realize he retired that early in terms of what I had been watching.
I started watching in 1978 so seeing Fitzroy in finals in 1979 and then 1981, 82 they won 12 and a draw but missed finals as sixth on ladder and then 1983 and 84 they also were finalist. So a lot of that period they were a good side to watch and on tv quite a bit on replay. Not as much as Carlton and Hawks but way more than the Bulldogs etc down near bottom. Hence saw Wilson on tv a lot in first period of me following the game than the small amount of Dougie Hawkins in his prime in this period. Did love seeing Dougie the two or three times Dogs got on tv in those seasons.

The weird thing was that Footscray rarely got a TV gig in the early 80's, but for some reason St Kilda seemed to be on every second week.

 

[footyfan1978]

Speaking of old videos etc. has anyone got a copy of the night series final between Carlton and Essendon ?

I can well remember a younger version of Timmy Watson kicking a great goal against us where Wayne Harmes and a few other players were somehow on the ground in front of him and had to jump over them to keep his balance then run on and kick an inspirational goal.

Probably my favourite Essendon player around that time with the flying dutchman. Baker was sublime in 1984 grand final but because Watson was there before him for quite a few years remember feeling good for likes of Watson, Neagle, Foulds and VanderHaar more as they were part of Essendon teams before that when they were not much until Sheedy moulded them into a great team.

 

[krisholio14]

Speaking of old videos etc. has anyone got a copy of the night series final between Carlton and Essendon ?

I can well remember a younger version of Timmy Watson kicking a great goal against us where Wayne Harmes and a few other players were somehow on the ground in front of him and had to jump over them to keep his balance then run on and kick an inspirational goal.

Probably my favourite Essendon player around that time with the flying dutchman. Baker was sublime in 1984 grand final but because Watson was there before him for quite a few years remember feeling good for likes of Watson, Neagle, Foulds and VanderHaar more as they were part of Essendon teams before that when they were not much until Sheedy moulded them into a great team.

Goal at 0:34

 

[krisholio14]

here's a few snippets of Dougie at his best too....

 

[footyfan1978]

Goal at 0:34

Excellent. Good find mate. Bloody Bombers got us that night. ha ha
I was looking at some highlights of game found somewhere else but did not show Watson goal.
Was funny seeing Lance Whitnall dad run around for us and not look big and fat like his son.
There was a number 48 for us too in game I never remember seeing. Don't remember him at all. Must have never made his senior debut and just played the night series.

 

[krisholio14]

Excellent. Good find mate. Bloody Bombers got us that night. ha ha
I was looking at some highlights of game found somewhere else but did not show Watson goal.
Was funny seeing Lance Whitnall dad run around for us and not look big and fat like his son.
There was a number 48 for us too in game I never remember seeing. Don't remember him at all. Must have never made his senior debut and just played the night series.

Geoff Hocking. Played six games that year, went to Claremont in 82 as the final part of the deal that brought Ken Hunter over in 81.

 

[Procrastinator35]

I disagree. Wilson started in 1971 and was a star of the 70s mainly. Fitzroy didnt make finals in his career until 79 and played 7 finals for 2 wins in the years he played at the club, mostly his twilight years

Hawkins also played through an era when the Dogs played a total of 7 finals for 2 wins interestingly. Difference was in the 70s (Hawkins played 78-94) football on the TV consisted of footy replay on Sat night where quarter was replayed form 2 different matches, hardly ever Fitzroy or the Dogs. There would be hardly any footage even made of Wilson and his career and any that was there has largely been wiped by Channel seven. Hawkins finished his career a decade later when the amount of vision from each match had increased a lot so we ended up seeing much more of him on the screen in my recollection.

There is hardly ant tape left of footy matches from the 70s and very little was taped in the 1st place.

Wilson was a champion player & a true rover in the Kevin Bartlett class/mold....Use to keep a real keen eye on the stats sheets as a kid, & it was always usually Wilson & Bartlett who headed the most possessions tally, along with the likes of Wayne Richardson & Ian Nankervis....Always played well against my Hawks too, so he was a player I admired/feared because of that....For a small skinny-framed bloke he was so courageous, had great pace, & unlike Bartlett, you'd often find him at the bottom of a pack too....Bartlett seldom dominated against us.

 

[krisholio14]

Wilson was a champion player & a true rover in the Kevin Bartlett class/mold....Use to keep a real keen eye on the stats sheets as a kid, & it was always usually Wilson & Bartlett who headed the most possessions tally, along with the likes of Wayne Richardson & Ian Nankervis....Always played well against my Hawks too, so he was a player I admired/feared because of that....For a small skinny-framed bloke he was so courageous, had great pace, & unlike Bartlett, you'd often find him at the bottom of a pack too....Bartlett seldom dominated against us.

Garry Wilson was one of the toughest blokes I've seen play. Copped a mountain of punishment in his day, but never complained and never stayed down. He could also dispense a hard hit without resorting to cheap shots.

 

[Gone Critical]

oh you are talking of tapes. You are probably right on that front in terms of finding it now.
I was speaking of perspective of what I saw in real time of the 80's. I would have watched or recorded every Saturday night replay show so any time Fitzroy was on in 1980's I would have seen plenty of Wilson, Conlan and Quinlan. Barely saw Dogs matches in that period.
From memory channel 2 had the Winners late at night to record on channel 2. They had encore version on Sunday and at some stage I also remember them having a two hour show on Sunday mornings where saw more extended replay of matches they covered. Most of them quite similar to channel 7 games but done by their own commentators and cameras. Footy coverage changed in 1987 when 2 more clubs began and Friday night and Sunday football started to become more a regular football diet. Before then it was essentially the replay shows to watch which I made sure I saw them all. As a Carlton supporter was spoilt as we were on it nearly every week because we never missed finals until 1989.

When I mention tapes it's from the perspective that the only footy seen on TV prior to 1977 was taped. 1977 was the 1st time the Grand Final was seen live on TV. I am pretty sure 1979 was the 1st time we saw any live H&A matches on TV when they televised a couple of matches played in Sydney. Sometimes the mind plays tricks about what we believed we saw.

It's funny how quickly things changed but essentially VFL football in the 70's and 80' and early 90's consisted of 6 matches played on a Saturday afternoon and for most of that time there was no live coverage. Funnily there was live coverage of the VFA on Sunday afternoon on Ch 10 with their match of the day. Players like Frosty Miller, Pat Flaherty etc (yes go Dandenong) were seen a lot more on TV than a Garry Wilson. So even when live coverage began , and I think that was essentially after Wilsons career was over, only one match could have been seen anyway because they were all played at the same time apart from Sunday games which began as only 2 x in a season in 1979. Still when Saturday arvo footy was the staple live footy didn't exist.

1983 was the 1st ever Friday match played.

So if we go back to Wilsons career for the majority of it the Chanel 7 sat night replay for 1 hr was the sum total of footy seen on TV for the week. There were a few highlights also on Sun with WOS. The replay was 1 Q for each of 2 pre selected matches. Fitzroy and Footscray rarely featured. So as a rough estimate, unless you went to the live games, you could probably see tape of Garry Wilson playing for something like 2-4 quarters of footy per season if you watched every footy replay. Most of us really only knew what Wilson was doing by reading the papers etc.

Few other facts. In 82 the govt legislated against the VFL even being allowed to play Sunday matches in Victoria. Victoria was a very different place. You might remember Frank Penhalluriact going to jail in the mid 80s for opening a hardware shop on a Sunday.

So truth is Garry Wilson just wasn't seen on TV in his footy career other than a few fleeting glances.

 

[krisholio14]

When I mention tapes it's from the perspective that the only footy seen on TV prior to 1977 was taped. 1977 was the 1st time the Grand Final was seen live on TV. I am pretty sure 1979 was the 1st time we saw any live H&A matches on TV when they televised a couple of matches played in Sydney. Sometimes the mind plays tricks about what we believed we saw.

It's funny how quickly things changed but essentially VFL football in the 70's and 80' and early 90's consisted of 6 matches played on a Saturday afternoon and for most of that time there was no live coverage. Funnily there was live coverage of the VFA on Sunday afternoon on Ch 10 with their match of the day. Players like Frosty Miller, Pat Flaherty etc (yes go Dandenong) were seen a lot more on TV than a Garry Wilson. So even when live coverage began , and I think that was essentially after Wilsons career was over, only one match could have been seen anyway because they were all played at the same time apart from Sunday games which began as only 2 x in a season in 1979. Still when Saturday arvo footy was the staple live footy didn't exist.

1993 was the 1st ever Friday match played.

So if we go back to Wilsons career for the majority of it the Chanel 7 sat night replay for 1 hr was the sum total of footy seen on TV for the week. There were a few highlights also on Sun with WOS. The replay was 1 Q for each of 2 pre selected matches. Fitzroy and Footscray rarely featured. So as a rough estimate, unless you went to the live games, you could probably see tape of Garry Wilson playing for something like 2-4 quarters of footy per season if you watched every footy replay. Most of us really only knew what Wilson was doing by reading the papers etc.

Few other facts. In 82 the govt legislated against the VFL even being allowed to play Sunday matches in Victoria. Victoria was a very different place. You might remember Frank Penhalluriact going to jail in the mid 80s for opening a hardware shop on a Sunday.

So truth is Garry Wilson just wasn't seen on TV in his footy career other than a few fleeting glances.

First Friday night game was in Sydney in 1983. First Friday game in Melbourne was in 1985.

 

[Gone Critical]

Fortunately a lot of people kept their homemade tapes of footy highlights from the 70's and these are steadily finding their way onto youtube.

A couple of faults in your reasoning. 1st Betamax was ist released onto the world market 1975 and VHS in 1977 I think. Remember the Betamax VHS war. These technologies even in there infancy were not around for much of Wilsons career. Likewise there was no live footy to record for virtually all of Wilsons career and the few matches that were live rarely featured Fitzroy. For all of Wilsons career football was 6 matches played on Saturday afternoon with no live coverage and a Q of a couple of matches on Sat night replay. The exception was an odd Sunday game late in his career. He was almost a decade out of the game before any games were played on Friday.

So there was no footage in essence of Wilsons career to record even when people started to have VHS recorders. The very little of his career captured by Ch 7 was lost quickly as they recorded over their tapes to save money and very little of the small amount recorded in the 70s even remains today.

So any one who thinks they saw much of Wilson has been tricked by their own mind

 

[krisholio14]

A couple of faults in your reasoning. 1st Betamax was ist released onto the world market 1975 and VHS in 1977 I think. Remember the Betamax VHS war. These technologies even in there infancy were not around for much of Wilsons career. Likewise there was no live footy to record for virtually all of Wilsons career and the few matches that were live rarely featured Fitzroy. For all of Wilsons career football was 6 matches played on Saturday afternoon with no live coverage and a Q of a couple of matches on Sat night replay. The exception was an odd Sunday game late in his career. He was almost a decade out of the game before any games were played on Friday.

So there was no footage in essence of Wilsons career to record even when people started to have VHS recorders. The very little of his career captured by Ch 7 was lost quickly as they recorded over their tapes to save money and very little of the small amount recorded in the 70s even remains today.

So any one who thinks they saw much of Wilson has been tricked by their own mind

I wasn't specifically referring to Garry Wilson. I already said earlier most of the existing video of his career is from '79 onwards.

I was just saying there are a lot of 70's replays starting to find their way onto youtube. Most are from 1977 onwards, but you occasionally get lucky and find a bit of '75 and '76 stuff. There is very little prior to the color era.

 

[footyfan1978]

When I mention tapes it's from the perspective that the only footy seen on TV prior to 1977 was taped. 1977 was the 1st time the Grand Final was seen live on TV. I am pretty sure 1979 was the 1st time we saw any live H&A matches on TV when they televised a couple of matches played in Sydney.

All correct.

Sometimes the mind plays tricks about what we believed we saw.

Your mind is not playing tricks on you there.
What we saw live in those times was football like Tuesday night games from Waverley for night series that tended to end about May and also some of the day games of the same series in pre-season and the others you mentioned. Also Carlton v Richmond at the Gabba for the Commonwealth Games was live on tv. Carlton v Essendon from SCG on a Sunday was around 1980.

It's funny how quickly things changed but essentially VFL football in the 70's and 80' and early 90's consisted of 6 matches played on a Saturday afternoon.

However this is where your mind is playing a few tricks on you. Well before 1990 the 6 matches on Saturday afternoon at same time was no longer. By the late 1980's games on Sunday were often live from interstate like Sydney and sometimes Brisbane Bears or West Coast Eagles. By around 1988 basically only 5 games were on a Saturday, sometimes less. Friday night football had already been experimented with such as North Melbourne v Collingwood as first home and away game on a Friday night at MCG. This happened in 1985 I believe. I went to a Carlton v North game on a Friday night a year or two after this too. These would not have been live on tv though. Only on radio live. Probably a late night replay show in channel 7 would have happened for some games like this.

Funnily there was live coverage of the VFA on Sunday afternoon on Ch 10 with their match of the day. Players like Frosty Miller, Pat Flaherty etc (yes go Dandenong) were seen a lot more on TV than a Garry Wilson. So even when live coverage began , and I think that was essentially after Wilsons career was over, only one match could have been seen anyway because they were all played at the same time

In terms of VFA on channel 10. Yep was live for most of 1980's and only reserve cup games live on channel 7 after World of Sport was to oppose it from channel 7. Later when Swans started being shown live from SCG it started to dissolve the ratings of channel 10 Sunday VFA stuff no doubt and when Eagles and Brisbane Bears joined too VFA lost it's stranglehold of having Sunday be their domain because then channel 7 had more regular games live from interstate and VFA could not compete to same level as before for viewers tuning in.

Back to main stuff though.
I think you maybe a bit confused here or confusion with games shown live to people outside of Melbourne. There was regularly 3 games shown on channel 7 replay show called Seven Big League between 6-30 pm and 8-30 pm. What would have occurred though is some places would get a game live on channel 7 if they from a regional area and probably places like Perth and Adelaide if it did not clash with their own local coverage. I certainly remember school holidays if far from home it was possible to see a live game from places like Sunshine Coast on a Saturday in footy season when I was on holidays with my family. Places like that maybe that is all they got. One game live on Saturday and nothing else. I not sure about those places but for those of us in Melbourne it was generally 3 games shown on replay on channel 7. Some would get much more time in the show but it tended to be 3 games over those two hours of a replay show.

apart from Sunday games which began as only 2 x in a season in 1979.

Sunday games live in Melbourne for channel 7 only happened from SCG in early 1980's and as you say in 1979 I am fairly sure a few games were played at SCG live into Melbourne. Certainly remember Hawks v North game live on tv with Leigh Matthews kicking a great goal at SCG and Carlton downing Essendon there and even at some stage Richmond played probably St.Kilda and Fitzroy there is a couple of games. Once South Melbourne moved up their they claimed SCG and live games themselves as a club.

1993 was the 1st ever Friday match played.

As I pointed out above in mid 1980's there were some games played Friday night at MCG. I think what you are talking about is probably weekly live coverage may have begun in 1993. Could be possibly. I remember delayed telecast of Friday night games went on for some time in Melbourne.

So if we go back to Wilsons career for the majority of it the Chanel 7 sat night replay for 1 hr

Saturday night replay show was for two hours from 6-30 pm to 8-30 pm on channel 7.
I remember 6-30 pm was a bugger because at 6 pm you had Saturday Review show on channel 2 and at 6-30 pm they would show a replay of a full quarter of what that channel considered match of the day. So sometimes if I could not record it on video recorder for some reason via parent ruling I would need to chose which channel to watch as a diehard football fan as a kid. Channel 7 or channel 2. What game was on was rarely the same as they did their own work each as channels covering the footy.

Fitzroy and Footscray rarely featured.

Fitzroy were on there a lot more than Footscray simply because if you got 3 matches replayed between 6-30 to 8-30 pm on channel 7 the chances of a team in top half of ladder being part of it was exponentially increased. Hence I saw a lot more of Gary Wilson in this period than Doug Hawkins. It was not until 1985 Footscray even made a final in all the time I had watched Wilson playing.

So truth is Garry Wilson just wasn't seen on TV in his footy career other than a few fleeting glances.

All relative. Compared to footballers of 1990's and beyond correct but in terms of footballers going around in the time I started following he was seen on tv a lot more than some like Doug Hawkins in early 1980's when I would try to catch every type of football replay show or highlights I could find as a massive footy nut as a kid. Chances of seeing 20 to 30 minutes of a Fitzroy game on weekend on tv compared to Footscray game was way way better. Fitzroy were usually in top half of ladder because they had genuine star players and a good team Dogs were usally bottom 3 or 4 in the same period. 1985 was first year since I began watching as a kid they started to be seen more than 2 or 3 times in whole season. By that stage it was 7 years of me following football as a game and Doug Hawkins rarely seen in comparison to Timmy Watson and Gary Wilson in same period.

 

[Gone Critical]

First Friday night game was in Sydney in 1983. First Friday game in Melbourne was in 1985.

Sorry typo meant 83. My daughter was born the day of the 1st night game in 85 at the old Mercy hospital. The VFL opened the gates about 30 mins before game time so everyone arrived at the same time and all the traffic around the G was a standstill.

 

[King Bont]

And if I was, say, a Richmond supporter?

Watson was a better player. The fact that I am an Essendon supporter is a coincidence in this case.

Hence the Lloyd/Bradshaw comparison I made - just because I support the club the guy was associated with, doesn't make me any less right. No one can seriously rate Hawkins higher than Watson, and I again repeat my utter respect for Dougie as a player.

Definitely respect your opinion on this, because like I said, I've never seen them play. But do you think that Hawkins may have made the same impact of Watson? if not more if he was an Essendon player in those glory days? Because from what I've heard Hawkins really didn't have much help, therefore he couldn't be as damaging with the ball.

 

[Jade]

Definitely respect your opinion on this, because like I said, I've never seen them play. But do you think that Hawkins may have made the same impact of Watson? if not more if he was an Essendon player in those glory days? Because from what I've heard Hawkins really didn't have much help, therefore he couldn't be as damaging with the ball.

It's possible, he was a damn good player. He'd be as good, or better than more than a few very, very good players in those Essendon sides.

Just not Watson - he's genuinely one of the top half dozen or so players Essendon has ever had.

 

[Gone Critical]

I wasn't specifically referring to Garry Wilson. I already said earlier most of the existing video of his career is from '79 onwards.

I was just saying there are a lot of 70's replays starting to find their way onto youtube. Most are from 1977 onwards, but you occasionally get lucky and find a bit of '75 and '76 stuff. There is very little prior to the color era.

Sorry didn't read you clearly

 

[Procrastinator35]

Definitely respect your opinion on this, because like I said, I've never seen them play. But do you think that Hawkins may have made the same impact of Watson? if not more if he was an Essendon player in those glory days? Because from what I've heard Hawkins really didn't have much help, therefore he couldn't be as damaging with the ball.

Doug was a wing-man & almost entirely an outside player, where he could use his run, pace & skills to maximum effect....He stood out in an often times poor to average side....Watson was a very powerful big-bodied mid, just as good on the inside as he was on the outside. He stood out in a champion team.
Both of em knew where the goals were too.

Watson was the best ruck/rover of his era, for almost a decade.... Hawkins was one of many excellent wing-men in his time....Not really comparable.

 

[Gone Critical]

All relative. Compared to footballers of 1990's and beyond correct but in terms of footballers going around in the time I started following he was seen on tv a lot more than some like Doug Hawkins in early 1980's when I would try to catch every type of football replay show or highlights I could find as a massive footy nut as a kid. Chances of seeing 20 to 30 minutes of a Fitzroy game on weekend on tv compared to Footscray game was way way better. Fitzroy were usually in top half of ladder because they had genuine star players and a good team Dogs were usally bottom 3 or 4 in the same period. 1985 was first year since I began watching as a kid they started to be seen more than 2 or 3 times in whole season. By that stage it was 7 years of me following football as a game and Doug Hawkins rarely seen in comparison to Timmy Watson and Gary Wilson in same period.

Thanks for your reply. I did make some mistakes there with dates and didn't express myself as well as I could. Basically trying to say even into the nineties most matches were still Sat arvo.

Going back to Wilson, he played 71-84 so before the era of any significant live footy. There may have been a couple of finals games he played in late in his career that were played on TV for the whole match but that would have been it apart from some night premiership games. I think you are saying because you watched avidly from 78-85 you have more memories of Wilson in those years. As to the more successful Lions than Dogs argument true for those few years but over their careers Hawkins and Wilsons teams were about as successful as each other's which wasn't very successful at all.

Because Hawkins played on for more that a decade after Wilson retired he played through years when the amount of footy seen on TV each week expanded greatly. Also both played about the same amount of finals and both had their team success later in their career it meant when the Doggies were going a bit better there was a lot more footy content on TV which meant we saw more of Doug.

So I accept you may have seen more of Wilson because you watched more avidly 78-85 when Roy's had a little success. However if you had continued to watch as avidly you would have seen even more of Hawkins when the Doggies had a bit of success. You may have seen more of Wilson but there was a lot more of Dougies career on TV because he played much longer into the years where TV coverage expanded.

 

[Sando22]

Watto.

 

[Im New]

Dougie was very good, but Watson for me.. Coincidentally it was a tackle/smother/bump from Dougie that caused Watson to do his ACL in 1986 - resulting in him missing effectively 18 months in what would have been his prime between ages 25 & 27...