Why getting thrashed is a good thing

[Memories]

People last year were criticizing me for saying "trade our good senior players so we can get more picks in the draft". The reason being that we would get thrashed this year if we did such things, and this would somehow halt the development of our youngsters.

The thing is though, the way you improve is by being put into hard positions and learning from your mistakes. So fielding an entirely under 21 midfield might mean we get thrashed but in a year or two they will come out of it with these features :-

1) Knowing what pressure is
2) How to handle the pressure
3) Disposing under pressure

You get better at something the more you do it. The bad thing is besides Palmer, Ibbo and Hill we have no one coming through the midfield of any class. You can pin your hopes on the back flankers/small forwards all you want, but I would like to have some genuine young midfielders in there learning what pressure is. Out of the 3 I mentioned only Palmer plays 90% of the time on the ball, the others are still being rotated in there.

This is why the 2008 draft was a shambles. No good midfield recruits besides Hill and no major trading of players to recruit more young midfielders. We are going to get thrashed this year with a roster that has the names of McPharlin, Pavlich, Tarrant, Hayden, Hasleby, Solomon, Grover, Mundy, Headland, Michael Johnson, Crowley and what is the benefit for our future in these players? None. They won't be around when we are actually any good, so what is the point of keeping them on? Even the commentators were saying the exact same thing, and if those morons have reached my level of understanding it makes me wonder about the supporters who disagree with me.

Now, we do have some dedicated fans at Freo which is great. These signs however made me laugh, can't remember the last time Grover won us a game, but there you go.

 

[Clay Davis]

I agree. If we're going to get thrashed better to be full of players we've picked up in recent seasons, rather than WAFL hack rookie elevations who are lucky not to have been delisted years ago.

 

[Wizard]

So we need to trade Pavlich, McPharlin etc becuase they probably wont get the chance to play in a Freo premiership.
These young guys learn from whats around them as well, having Pavlich to learn from would be an invaluable tool for some of our kids.
And to say MJ, Mundy and Crowley wont see success with us is ludicrous. They are all still relatively young players and will have the oppurtunity to see success with this club.

You don't sell out club stalwarts like Pav, Hase, Luke Mac, Grovs etc just for the sake of it.

We all know the players that should be gone: Dodd, Head, Browne, Gilmore, Thornton.

 

[Memories]

You don't sell out club stalwarts like Pav, Hase, Luke Mac, Grovs etc just for the sake of it.

Why not? No individual is bigger than the team, it's time the Freo supporters (the EXACT same ones who back up players like Browne a few months ago) realized this as well as the coaches/recruiters.

A lot of your learning actually happens out on the ground, putting Palmer on Judd and there you go with knowing what type of work ethic is required. To be honest I'm not sure what kind of example players like Pavlich, Hasleby, McPharlin, Grover, Headland etc set to the younger players. One of how to coast and not put in 100% all the time? Because that's pretty much what we are known for, inconsistency and unaccountability and the players you mentioned are the leaders of our club. Mundy and Michael Johnson have obviously been too heavily tutored in these skills and need to go also.

Time to cut the wood from the tree that has turned bad. Well actually the time was 2 years ago and we missed the "best time to do it" boat. Still we can get some value in this next draft for some of those players I mentioned.

 

[derPy]

but memories u enjoyed 2001

 

[Kickett Punches Read]

Why not? No individual is bigger than the team, it's time the Freo supporters (the EXACT same ones who back up players like Browne a few months ago) realized this as well as the coaches/recruiters.

A lot of your learning actually happens out on the ground, putting Palmer on Judd and there you go with knowing what type of work ethic is required. To be honest I'm not sure what kind of example players like Pavlich, Hasleby, McPharlin, Grover, Headland etc set to the younger players. One of how to coast and not put in 100% all the time? Because that's pretty much what we are known for, inconsistency and unaccountability and the players you mentioned are the leaders of our club. Mundy and Michael Johnson have obviously been too heavily tutored in these skills and need to go also.

Time to cut the wood from the tree that has turned bad. Well actually the time was 2 years ago and we missed the "best time to do it" boat. Still we can get some value in this next draft for some of those players I mentioned.

I must admit, i am now coming around to your way of thinking, im curious though, you suggesting that we picked up no good midfield recruits other than hill, are you not happy with suban? personally i think he has shown that he will be a gun, but thats just me

 

[Memories]

but memories u enjoyed 2001

Yeah and this year is going great too!

In regards to our draft picks. The last year we won the spoon Judd, Hodge, Bartel, Johnson, Seaby* and others were in the draft, so who knows what sort of player will be in the draft this year when we spoon, going on history it will be excellent....

My only issue looking forward is what I discussed, the lack of midfield recruitments and development. It's time to bring in all the rookies who may be able to play midfield and plonk them down. One of them may come out of it ok, who knows. Better than seeing Mundy/Crowley/MiJo/Browne fail again.

It was good to see WCE and Melbourne get wins on the weekend though, things are going very well for the dockers of the future at the moment.

 

[E Shed]

I must admit, i am now coming around to your way of thinking, im curious though, you suggesting that we picked up no good midfield recruits other than hill, are you not happy with suban? personally i think he has shown that he will be a gun, but thats just me

I think Memories includes Suban in the half back flanker types. Which I agree with.

 

[Memories]

I must admit, i am now coming around to your way of thinking, im curious though, you suggesting that we picked up no good midfield recruits other than hill, are you not happy with suban? personally i think he has shown that he will be a gun, but thats just me

A midfield gun? Nope. He has back flanker written all over him, reminds me a bit of Black actually. Whilst I'm sure he will spend stints in the midfield he isn't going to be someone we rely on week in/week out in the middle. He looks a handy type though, Black in his prime was very handy with his long kicks from the backline too.

 

[Kram]

Isn't the draft this year smaller because the cut off age is getting moved by 3 months?

 

[Kickett Punches Read]

A midfield gun? Nope. He has back flanker written all over him, reminds me a bit of Black actually. Whilst I'm sure he will spend stints in the midfield he isn't going to be someone we rely on week in/week out in the middle. He looks a handy type though, Black in his prime was very handy with his long kicks from the backline too.

i see him as a heath black type as well, however black played a lot of great football on the wing. im thinking that suban could do the same thing. with a fantastic kick, he will be invaluable with his disposal into the forwardline. i think that suban will be a very important player in our future.

im not sure that we want to get rid of pavlich, not a good precedent to set, especially since he has remained so loyal to us even through our worst times.

mcpharlin, sandilands, hasleby, mundy, schammer and crowley etc i think would be fair game though if offered the right amount.

god i hope michael johnson is traded though, no heart whatsoever, and he may still have some currency.

i look at hawthorn, they traded 3 key players during their rebuilding phase, rawlings, hay and thompson. with some smart recruiting and the balls to let some stalwarts go, hawthorn have already reaped the rewards, we may have to do something similar.

 

[Moo]

Why not? No individual is bigger than the team, it's time the Freo supporters (the EXACT same ones who back up players like Browne a few months ago) realized this as well as the coaches/recruiters.

You know we backed Browne as a depth player for this year and not as a 5 year contracted player?

Keep it in perspective.

Plus if we had traded Pav and McPharlin ....would you have played Hall at CHF or CHB?

 

[Memories]

i see him as a heath black type as well, however black played a lot of great football on the wing. im thinking that suban could do the same thing. with a fantastic kick, he will be invaluable with his disposal into the forwardline. i think that suban will be a very important player in our future.

Yep, he will mostly play down back but given the state of the game as it is, his kicks into the forwardline will likely become an important facet of his game. Hopefully some lovely running 60m kicks for goal like Black too.

im not sure that we want to get rid of pavlich, not a good precedent to set, especially since he has remained so loyal to us even through our worst times.

Meh, Palmer next year should be given the captaincy, and everyone over 25 removed from the club (minus Sandilands) if it's wise to do such.

I said right from the start I was a bit worried about Pavlich taking the captaincy in such a "I don't really want it" way from Bell. Didn't scream leader to me at the time. Pavlich likely would want to play in a good team before he retires, Crows and Port are near abouts to give us a few picks for him.

mcpharlin, sandilands, hasleby, mundy, schammer and crowley etc i think would be fair game though if offered the right amount.

god i hope michael johnson is traded though, no heart whatsoever, and he may still have some currency.

i look at hawthorn, they traded 3 key players during their rebuilding phase, rawlings, hay and thompson. with some smart recruiting and the balls to let some stalwarts go, hawthorn have already reaped the rewards, we may have to do something similar.

Yep, if you notice some things of the last few GF teams......

1) Hawks recruited Dew, who pretty much won them the GF and helped them get there
2) Port Adelaide recruited Rodan who was instrumental in their side leading up to it

Sometimes getting a mature age pickup if you are thereabouts pretty much gets you into the grand final or lets you win it. That said we are far from thereabouts, other teams though will be looking at what we can give them, and some of those players mentioned will be handy in other teams.

 

[Memories]

You know we backed Browne as a depth player for this year and not as a 5 year contracted player?

Keep it in perspective.

It was in perspective but the point remains, we have supporters who back the biggest duds at our club. Is it no surprise that if you even mention anyone above a C grade in our team you will be stoned? This attitude needs to change.

Plus if we had traded Pav and McPharlin ....would you have played Hall at CHF or CHB?

If we traded them two we would have had at least another 3 picks in the draft, maybe 4. The last draft was pretty good in my opinion for midfielders and we missed out, we didn't even take advantage of the picks we did have.

Not sure why it matters who we play in their place, it is obvious our team would be slaughtered regardless, it is being slaughtered at the moment with so called "stars" in it. Slaughtered with "stars" has little future benefit to our team compared to slaughtered with "Rookies". Basically I'm not sure of what point you are trying to make.

 

[Memories]

If we had have dealed with Port last year, given them Pavlich we could have got pick 4 and 22/38 I think :-

pick 3 ) Hill/Rich
pick 4 ) Hartlett
pick 21) Robinson/whoever
pick 22/38) Midfielder
pick 24) Suban/kpp
pick 37) whoever

That bodes better for our team than having Pavlich in it. Whether you have purple tinted glasses on or not.

 

[Moo]

It was in perspective but the point remains, we have supporters who back the biggest duds at our club. Is it no surprise that if you even mention anyone above a C grade in our team you will be stoned? This attitude needs to change.

If we traded them two we would have had at least another 3 picks in the draft, maybe 4. The last draft was pretty good in my opinion for midfielders and we missed out, we didn't even take advantage of the picks we did have.

Not sure why it matters who we play in their place, it is obvious our team would be slaughtered regardless, it is being slaughtered at the moment with so called "stars" in it. Slaughtered with "stars" has little future benefit to our team compared to slaughtered with "Rookies". Basically I'm not sure of what point you are trying to make.

So your plan was to cut what 20 players off our list in one go. Including our better players.

Great plan mate A few 180 point thrashings is just what our club needs.

When you start with a D grade list - you can expect a few C graders whilst the problem is being fixed.

 

[Memories]

So your plan was to cut what 20 players off our list in one go.

Great plan mate

It's a better plan than what we have now.

Moving in 20 players and cutting the deadwood would mean there is no real existing culture to pass onto the new players. As it is now players like Hill/Suban/Palmer/Mayne/etc are around duds who are likely influencing them negatively.

What is the downside to moving in 20 players? We get thrashed? We are getting thrashed. There are only upsides to bringing in even more young players than what we did.

 

[Moo]

If we had have dealed with Port last year, given them Pavlich we could have got pick 4 and 22/38 I think :-

Where did you source that offer from?

 

[Memories]

Where did you source that offer from?

A place that people who back duds like Browne don't have. Logic and reason.

 

[Moo]

It's a better plan than what we have now.

Moving in 20 players and cutting the deadwood would mean there is no real existing culture to pass onto the new players. As it is now players like Hill/Suban/Palmer/Mayne/etc are around duds who are likely influencing them negatively.

What is the downside to moving in 20 players? We get thrashed? We are getting thrashed. There are only upsides to bringing in even more young players than what we did.

You have not given the plan that is in place time to work - if you look at it realistically -

Harvey cleaned out a lot in season 1 and cut very heavily in season 2 - plus used all our draft picks. That is the difference in the game plan.

The darkest times of this strategy - cleaning out the older guys and using the draft is likely to be this year and next year ...followed by steady improvement. You can't judge it from here.

Also rubbish comment on the culture - many clubs go from zero to hero with a core of players from the bad old days.

How come a lot of these guys were good in enough in 06 but 3 years later they are not?

Put Mundy at Hawthron and we would be flooded with posts of why did we trade him.

 

[Kickett Punches Read]

It's a better plan than what we have now.

Moving in 20 players and cutting the deadwood would mean there is no real existing culture to pass onto the new players. As it is now players like Hill/Suban/Palmer/Mayne/etc are around duds who are likely influencing them negatively.

What is the downside to moving in 20 players? We get thrashed? We are getting thrashed. There are only upsides to bringing in even more young players than what we did.

I think it would have been too hard to get rid of 20 in one season, and no point picking up players with pick 101-110.... but if they had their time over, i would hope that they would have kept farmer on the list ahead of browne, heath black ahead of thornton/head/gilmore. then maybe pick up deboer, broughton and pearce later in the draft, seeing as though they lasted to the rookie list anyway.

we will have another clean out this year where hopefully dodd, gilmore, browne, thornton and head all go and we can add even more qaulity talent to the list. i think we are going to have to start focusing on KPP as well, but with the need for midfielders we are going to have to probably go with the best player available approach at the start of the draft

we are definitely going to have to make some smart, and ballsy decisions.
first thing i would do, would retire des headland and possibly solomon. then look to trade one or two of mcpharlin, crowley, sandilands, schammer, mundy for some extra decent picks.

I would definitely trade michael johnson

and on draft day we just have to, HAVE TO draft wisely, which means that we trust smart/lloyd

then we need a more defined, appropriate game plan, drop this rolling zone crap and become more direct. if harvey cant produce that by 2/3 of the way through next year, then look for a new coach

 

[Moo]

A place that people who back duds like Browne don't have. Logic and reason.

Edit - mistaken attack on Mr Memories ....withdrawn

Look you are going to have a band of followers on here with every negative result and there will be many more of them to come.

Cleaning out over 3 years is not a bad effort after we had not really done anything in the previous 5.

You want to know why not too many coaches are brave enought to do a cleanout - it is because when you don't win games the natives get restless.

Under your plan we would be perhaps the most useless team of all time - I for one think a rebuild is fine, kids getting smashed too early in their careers and reinforcing an even greater losing culture than currently exist ....no thanks.

 

[Memories]

Also rubbish comment on the culture - many clubs go from zero to hero with a core of players from the bad old days.

Like who, Shane Crawford? Few clubs keep players as long as we have that don't perform. It is something we are known for.

How come a lot of these guys were good in enough in 06 but 3 years later they are not?

They were good enough in 06? Players age, and a lot of our midfielders were at their peak in 06. That and as we know, our culture is terrible. Players basically come to Freo for an easy ride on the way to collecting game checks.

Put Mundy at Hawthron and we would be flooded with posts of why did we trade him.

Put mundy at Melbourne or any other shit team and look at us go "wow we traded excellent there". The fact we have all these downhill skiers that may do better in other teams doesn't mean much when our team is shit. Mundy is never going to change, MiJo is never going to change. Young teenagers MAY change (often they don't), old players very very rarely do. Mundy isn't going to become some hard nosed enforcer type midfielder that we need. Crowley isn't going to become a ball winner all of a sudden. MiJo will not stop ducking his head or go into a contest more than half heartedly.

The fact that these players may do better in a different team is not a reason to hold onto them. All we care about is how they do for Fremantle, not how well they do for Collingwood, Hawthorn, etc.

 

[Moo]

KPR - the season to trade might be the following year with GC?

Again if we cut Browne, Headland, Solly, Head, Thornton and Gilmore - that is a lot of experience out of the club - without trading for more kids.

 

[Kickett Punches Read]

The other thing memories, and i do agree with you to a point, is that you have also stated on this board that you dont think we should be playing stephen hill because he is too skinny, but walters, hall etc are all in the same boat, if we had of gotten rid of 20 players and we werent to play all the kids that were ready, then we wouldnt field a team. rebuilding is something that has to be done over 3-5 years and done properly, otherwise you end up with a richmond senario