Its custom .... got no place here https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-03-21/genital-mutilation-brisbane-woman-jailed/10924058
Society/Culture Why I blame Islam for the fact it's raining today....
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Its custom .... got no place here https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-03-21/genital-mutilation-brisbane-woman-jailed/10924058
- Jul 30, 2018
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Monotheism predates Islam, but that doesn’t mean that monotheism isn’t essential to it.
Its interesting though, Malaysia isn't the middle east.
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- #7,479
FGM has been co-opted into Islam as a sort of culturally accepted or preferred practice for some Muslims to engage in.
It was a common practice in pre-Islam Middle East (along with arranged marriage, polygamy and slavery and a ton of other practices) that got swept up into the religion largely due to being favorably referenced in the Hadiths (secondary textual support for the Quran, but not the actual Quran).
Im not arguing against that.
I am saying it's not Sharia law.
Sharia Law is an Islamic legal code (similar to Jewish Halakah). Like any code, it prescribes certain things as crimes (adultery, homosexuality, rape, murder etc) and sets out (usually draconian) punishments for them. It also includes rules for evidence (the '4 male witnesses' rule), rules for marriage and divorce, rules for governance and taxation etc.
It doesnt mention FGM anywhere, nor does it require arranged marriages. In fact it requires consent of the Bride and Groom (and the Brides father) before lawful marriage.
Dont take this as me condoning Sharia Law as a legal code by the way. For a 7th century Legal Code it's quite advanced and reasonably enlightned for its historical context. Remember, even our own British Common law was still treating women as objects and imposing far worse capital punishment than stoning to death and cutting off hands and feet (i.e. being hung drawn and quartered) well into the 18th and even 19th centuries. Britain in the 7th century (Sharia was codified in 622 AD) had nothing even close to as comprehensive or enlightened as Sharia Law.
The problem with Sharia today is it hasnt moved with the times due to the basis of its authority being 'Gods way he wants the world to be'. See also: Brunei.
There are progressives within Islam that seek to move past the literal interpretation of the Sharia Legal code, however there are (and will remain) hard line textual fundamentalists that push back against that argument and want strict literal interpretation.
You see the same thing in Judaism with the Conservative Jewish interpretation of the OT laws and Halakah, and more progressive and mainstream Jewish re-interpretation of the Laws of the Old Testament (Leviticus etc).
Christians dont really have the same problem seeing as JC expressly repudiated the Laws of the Old Testament, and didnt really replace them with anything other than 'love thy neighbor and be nice to everyone, even your enemies'.
Even then there are still some Christians that claim things like 'an eye for an eye' are still part of the Christian faith, despite Jesus expressly saying otherwise on the Sermon on the Mount.
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Isnt the real problem the preachers interpretation, they spin it to suit their own agenda. Christianity tends to have a hierachy.
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- #7,481
That doesnt help.
Ive said before I think an 'Islamic State' or bona fide Caliphate could do wonders for the Islamic world and the religion. With the right leadership it could drag the religion into the 21st century.
It's almost a shame we defeated the last one (the Ottomans) in WW1. It would have been intresting to see how they progressed in the 20th century with neighboring European powers.
- Jul 30, 2018
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Lol. The Ottoman Empire was already falling apart internally before WW1 for being too libertine. Look into the lineage of the Wahhabism (and Qutbism): they were active revolts against the cosmopolitanism of the empire.
Dont want to put words into your mouth BUT are you agreeing ?
We've demanded the Catholic Church move with the times, accept they are a part of a bigger problem - whats good for the goose is good for ....
The ordinary Catholic is shattered by the revelations as are ordinary Muslims by the terror in their names - we know there will be squeals but we need strong leadership, the rank & file will be heard as long as fairness is up front, not political correctness demonising any group/religion.
Its not racist even though that card will be played.
Downhill Skier
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- #7,485
And their successor Turkey seems to be backsliding as well.
That said, backsliding into conservatism and populism isnt restricted to just the Muslim world. Russia, China, the Philippines, UK, most of Europe, the USA etc have all seen a rising embrace of conservatism and populism.
Downhill Skier
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The Arabic word bazr does not mean "prepuce of the clitoris", it means the clitoris itself (cf. the entry in the Arabic-English Dictionary). The deceptive translation by Nuh Hah Mim Keller, made for Western consumption, obscures the Shafi’i law, given by ‘Umdat al-Salik, that circumcision of girls by excision of the clitoris is mandatory. This particular form of female circumcision is widely practiced in Egypt, where the Shafi’i school of Sunni law is followed.
How does that back up what you are saying ?
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- #7,488
I literally mentioned Shaffi's above, and said they're alone in claiming its a religious requirement:
Shaffi's claim FGM is religiously mandated, but they're alone there. It (FGM) is not mentioned in the Sharia Legal code, nor is it mentioned in the Quran. It is referenced obliquely in the Hadiths, and many Muslims take that reference to mean that it's religiously sanctioned.
Shaffi's take that one step further and assert it's religiously mandated.
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- #7,489
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shafi‘i#Demographics
Shaffis (a branch of Sunni Islam) seem to draw on both the Quran and the Hadiths (which mention FGM) as their source for Sharia Law. If there is any ambiguity between the two, they turn to a secondary source to interpret the texts.
The actual Sharia code itself doesnt mention FGM. They (Shaffis) take a broader interpretation of Sharia though, and include pretty much anything mentioned in the Quran, Hadiths or secondary sources and run with it as mandatory. FGM is mentioned with approval in the Hadiths, so (according to Shaffi thinking) this makes it as mandatory as anything else in the Quran.
Downhill Skier
Team Captain
You are being obtuse. The Shaffi school of Sharia is the Shaffi's version of Sharia Law which is practised in numerous places around the globe.
It's great the other 3 school's of Islam do not make it Mandatory but the fact is that Shaffi's do.
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- #7,491
How can I be 'being obtuse' when I was the one that pointed out that Shaffis are alone in considering FGM mandatory, and they incorporate it into their religious practices, considering it religiously mandated?
If you consider Shaffi's unique interpretation of the Hadiths and Quran as 'Sharia Law' then (for Shaffis) FGM is part of Sharia Law. I think that's a pretty disingenuous argument to make however. The Shaffis have a very specific method of incorporating Hadiths into Sharia (and of textual interpretation of the Quran and Hadiths) that none of the other sects of Islam practice.
Would it be more accurate to say: Outside of Shaffi Islams unique method of interpreting the Hadiths 'into' the Sharia law, FGM doesnt feature in the Sharia legal Code as understood by most Muslims.
Downhill Skier
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You do know in the early history of Islam ,Shaffi'i was the most widely followed version of Sharia. It is great that over time Muslims moved away the Sahaffi's interpretation of Sharia and hopefully it continues to do so.
I find it frustrating that you obviously know that FGM was part of Shaffi'i's school of Sharia but still trying to claim there is no mandatory FGM in Sharia Law .
I don't understand why people would want to spread false information and argue them as facts when it is clear they know the actual truth. That is what I would consider disingenuous
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- #7,493
Is the Shaffi School of Sharia Law, representative of Sharia Law?
If they were the mainstream school of Islamic Jurisprudunce you might have an argument there. They're not, and their acceptance of the FGM as divinely required by Muslims (despite also acknowledging the practice was a Pre Islam cultural practice from the Middle East) is rejected by the other 3 branches of Sunni Islam, and (AFAIK) by other Islamic sects as well (Shia, Devishes etc).
Downhill Skier
Team Captain
Ok mate , keep telling yourself that. Keep shifting the goal posts . Please tell me how that helps Muslim’s living in countries that practise under Shaffi’s school of Sharia .
It’s pretty pointless to try move further towards modern interpretations of religion when we just put out fingers in our ears and says la la la and pretend things aren’t happening when they are.
No it is not reprasentative of sharia law. IT IS Sharia Law and it is practised in multiple countries including Indonesia.
Fact - One of the 4 schools of Sharia practise mandatory FGM . There is no way to deny that
I can’t help you if you refuse to admit it but I find the irony amusing considering the posts you were making in another thread yesterday about admitting when you are wrong
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Downhill Skier
Team Captain
This is my last post but this is me laying out your argument.
Australian Legal System ( Sharia Law)
-NSW(Hanafi) - FGM is not Mandatory
-Vic (Maliki)-FGM is not Mandatory
-QLD (Hanbali)-FGM is not Mandatory
-TAS (Shafi’i) - FGM IS MANDATORY
Conclusion- FGM is not Mandatory in the Australian Legal Sytem . Tasmania is not a mainstream state or territory and the other states do not agree that FGM should be Mandatory . Tasmania is not representative of the Australian Legal system.
The argument is deliberately misleading and absurd .
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- Sep 15, 2011
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Surely it would be more misleading to claim that Australia therefore supports FGM.
Downhill Skier
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It’s misleading to give either a plain yes or no answer .
inflames61
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- Apr 1, 2019
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You reckon they teach the “safe schools” program in any of those Sharia practiced schools
Downhill Skier
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No you did not give a one word answer but you still give incorrect information .
It certainly is contained in the Sharia legal code . Shafi’i Sharia Law 100% is part of the Sharia Legal Code.
You also make out that the use of the Hadith is not a normal practise in regards to Sharia Law . The Hadith and Quran are both used as the foundation of Sharia Law.
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