Why we should think about trading Chris Knights

[srv23]

Yeah they do. But given how young our list and planning for the pay rises in the future we should be paying towards the lower end of what we have to. However I'm prettu sure whenever I've heard it discussed we've always been towards 100% of total player payments while so many other clubs seem to have cap room to go out and chase players. Which given that we rarely if ever have players earning much over 600k, we must be heavily skewing our payments to our lower end players.

 

[King Elvis]

Carl's right though. virtually by the clubs admission we pay our mid range players far more than anyone else. i.e. we don't pay top dollar to our stars, and we're still at full cap.

Would be interesting to see some data on this; I more thought we spread it around the top tier players more than the mid-range, but that's based on nothing.

 

[TheLeftFist8]

And with our in-house succession planning (ie Harper for Reid), nothing will change.

It's unbelievable if what people are saying is true.

Are we so worried about losing Symes, Doughty and Stevens types?

Will the average players cry if they don't get near what Tippett and Thompson get?

Boo frickity hoo...get over it, you're lucky to get a game and if you wanna cry about how things should work in the big league then go elsewhere and see if they'll pay you this much!

I'm very concerned about the unique management style of the AFC

 

[crowman86]

A lot of assumptions in this thread that people are running with and subsequently bashing 'the unique management style' of the Crows and their salary cap. Afaik the crows generally pay just under 94% (minimum is 92.5%) and leave 6% free for performance based bonuses. This seems fairly reasonable to me. While we don't often play massive amount to our star players it’s not like we are losing them because of it. Besides Bock (GC over inflated price) and (Kane Johnson (his reason was monetary anyway) I can't really think of any star players that has left the club in the past 10-15 years. We are not the worst in the league by a long stretch at managing these sorts of things, heard Carro says a few months back that Richmond and Melbourne were already paying close to 99% of the cap already with shit lists.

 

[srv23]

A lot of assumptions in this thread that people are running with and subsequently bashing 'the unique management style' of the Crows and their salary cap. Afaik the crows generally pay just under 94% (minimum is 92.5%) and leave 6% free for performance based bonuses. This seems fairly reasonable to me. While we don't often play massive amount to our star players it’s not like we are losing them because of it. Besides Bock (GC over inflated price) and (Kane Johnson (his reason was monetary anyway) I can't really think of any star players that has left the club in the past 10-15 years. We are not the worst in the league by a long stretch at managing these sorts of things, heard Carro says a few months back that Richmond and Melbourne were already paying close to 99% of the cap already with shit lists.

As far as players leaving - you've mentioned Bock and Johnson. Stenglein left as well but moreso to "go home". Hudson allegedly left because we wouldn't give him 3 years, Welsh left because we were pretty devious in our contract dealings with him - ie wanted to stay, wanted 2 years, club said we'll give you 1 and if you fullfill "x" criteria we will give you a second, Welsh said OK but I want it written into the contract that if I fullfill the critieria I will get a second year, club said no, Welsh left..Knights may leave because of money.

I think it's hard to compare say 10 years ago to now. There is no loyalty left in football. Guys used to stay at clubs for their entire careers and take pay cuts out of a sense of loyalty and wanting to be 1 club players. Clubs are no longer loyal to their players but get on their high horse when players are not loyal to them. Guys will leave clubs for more money or to have a better chance at a flag these days.

The issue with the salary cap is not how much of the cap we spend, but how we scale players pays - we traditionally (and we have stated this publically) pay our lower end/mid range players more than other clubs do and as a result pay our stars less. As an example Tippett is reportedly our highest paid player (possibly ever) on about 500k. While Jared Brennan reportedly wants 700k a year and someone will pay him that. I don't think he deserves it but that's the kind of cash you need to throw around to genuinely lure a star player from another club but I supect our AFC principles of player payments wouldn't allow that. And thats probably why we haven't landed a genuine A grade star player in trade week since Jarman. FWIW I wonder what Griffen would have said if we offerred him 600-700k...

 

[marvin]

Fiction made up by other fans to justify their claims that a third rounder is reasonable.

Also fiction supported by some Adelaide fans who can't remember more than the last few weeks.

We mismanaged him this year, there is no doubt about that; his contract should therefore be primarily based on last years output - and based on that, he should be one of higher paid players, especially with the departures.

$400k a year doesn't sound excessive as a base, at all; throw in some performance based increases that get him up around $450k, he's worth it.

I reckon that's bang on the money, and the comment about mismanagement is extra pertinent.

There's no doubt that the length of Knights absence from the side in 2010 is related to the decision taken about management of the issue - not to operate, then to go under the knife. If the club are then going to play hardball on money (you hardly played this year - we aren't paying you so much) that's just kicking a bloke when he's down.

If that happened to me, I'd seriously think about leaving too.

 

[johnnypanther]

Just as an aside, and Knights himself should take this into account when deciding whether to stay or go now: if Chris Knights signs on for 2 more years with us, then he will be an eligible free agent at the end of 2012, (I think that is when free agency starts), and he would only have just turned 26yo at that time too.

Reilly, Maric & van Berlo will also become eligible free agents at that time.

 

[King Elvis]

And with our in-house succession planning (ie Harper for Reid), nothing will change.

It's unbelievable if what people are saying is true.

Are we so worried about losing Symes, Doughty and Stevens types?

Will the average players cry if they don't get near what Tippett and Thompson get?

Boo frickity hoo...get over it, you're lucky to get a game and if you wanna cry about how things should work in the big league then go elsewhere and see if they'll pay you this much!

I'm very concerned about the unique management style of the AFC

How many players have we lost as a result of not paying them enough?

 

[crowman86]

As far as players leaving - you've mentioned Bock and Johnson. Stenglein left as well but moreso to "go home". Hudson allegedly left because we wouldn't give him 3 years, Welsh left because we were pretty devious in our contract dealings with him - ie wanted to stay, wanted 2 years, club said we'll give you 1 and if you fullfill "x" criteria we will give you a second, Welsh said OK but I want it written into the contract that if I fullfill the critieria I will get a second year, club said no, Welsh left..Knights may leave because of money.

I said star players. While Hudson was a pretty big loss, I dont know if him leaving can really be attributed to how we pay our players. Welsh did nothing of note after he left the club anyway.

The issue with the salary cap is not how much of the cap we spend, but how we scale players pays - we traditionally (and we have stated this publically) pay our lower end/mid range players more than other clubs do and as a result pay our stars less. As an example Tippett is reportedly our highest paid player (possibly ever) on about 500k. While Jared Brennan reportedly wants 700k a year and someone will pay him that. I don't think he deserves it but that's the kind of cash you need to throw around to genuinely lure a star player from another club but I supect our AFC principles of player payments wouldn't allow that. And thats probably why we haven't landed a genuine A grade star player in trade week since Jarman. FWIW I wonder what Griffen would have said if we offerred him 600-700k...

The only clubs that will even think of paying this are the 2 new clubs with inflated cap space. Who knows what the club offered Griff to come home? Maybe we did offer him 600k and 4 year deal? Maybe he was never interested in coming home?

 

[johnnypanther]

A lot of assumptions in this thread that people are running with and subsequently bashing 'the unique management style' of the Crows and their salary cap. Afaik the crows generally pay just under 94% (minimum is 92.5%) and leave 6% free for performance based bonuses. This seems fairly reasonable to me. While we don't often play massive amount to our star players it’s not like we are losing them because of it. Besides Bock (GC over inflated price) and (Kane Johnson (his reason was monetary anyway) I can't really think of any star players that has left the club in the past 10-15 years. We are not the worst in the league by a long stretch at managing these sorts of things, heard Carro says a few months back that Richmond and Melbourne were already paying close to 99% of the cap already with shit lists.

Assumptions based on perceptions and radio comments by Harper etc are all that we have to work with unfortunately, unless the club actually comes out and says otherwise (and i wouldnt expect them to do that).

In any case, and this applies to any discussion threads we have on any topic, whether our comments are incorrectly based or not, at least they bring up good discussion topics on our forums and hopefully sometimes raise points and issues which the footy club may not have considered.

 

[TheLeftFist8]

How many players have we lost as a result of not paying them enough?

How many players have we failed to attract because we haven't offered them enough?

 

[srv23]

I said star players. While Hudson was a pretty big loss, I dont know if him leaving can really be attributed to how we pay our players. Welsh did nothing of note after he left the club anyway.


quote]

How many genuine star players has our club had in the last 10 years - Goodwin, McLeod, Roo...maybe Edwards - 4 ex premiership players who started playing in the era of club loyalty and 1 club players. For that matter how many star players are there at any club.

I honestly can't think of any other genuine stars over that time unless you consider our up and coming stars in which case Knights is certainly one of them and I'd hate to lose him over money.

Johnson and Stenglein left in their prime to "go home" I would put these guys in the tier below our genuine stars. I would have like them to have been playing over the last 5 or 6 years. Did it have to do with pay - I don't know - reports suggest it didn't but they were still very good players who left.

Hudson was a huge huge loss and Welsh, while not a star was still our leading goal kicker and most important and most talented forward for a long time. His career may not have been flash after he left but he was a very good player for us after coming over from North Melbourne.
Mattner also left us during that time and has been a regular in a Sydney sides that is playing finals ever since.

The bottom line is that over the last 10 years while they may not all be stars, all of Bock, Johnson, Stenglein, Hudson, Welsh and Mattner chose to leave our club despite them being regular best 22 players at the time of them leaving.

How many well run good quality clubs lose that many best 22 players during a period of time when we were playing finals more often than not?

 

[Stiffy_18]

The bottom line is that over the last 10 years while they may not all be stars, all of Bock, Johnson, Stenglein, Hudson, Welsh and Mattner chose to leave our club despite them being regular best 22 players at the time of them leaving.

And all of those bar 1 (Johnson) left in Craig's era!

 

[afc1991]

Also fiction supported by some Adelaide fans who can't remember more than the last few weeks.

Im one who likes Knights but think its a bit rich holding out for cash when hes played 5 games this year. Was surprised he hasnt missed more games through injury but so far it's no myth. Hes missed patches of seasons every year since cementing a spot. Type of player that strains a hammy every winter, and not immune from the unlucky ones either (eyesocket).

Not a reason to greatly devalue him at this stage, but carn Knighta take what we offer (it wouldnt be poor) get out on the park for two years, gun it and then negotiate a deal that puts you in our highest earners.

 

[King Elvis]

How many players have we failed to attract because we haven't offered them enough?

Define enough.

Who did we fail to get because we didn't put enough coin on the table?

 

[ams4crows]

Define enough.

Who did we fail to get because we didn't put enough coin on the table?

Ben Holland.... although apparently we did offer enough coin and richmond went beyond the cap to keep him there through buying him a house and company shares or something along those lines.

 

[Stiffy_18]

Ben Holland.... although apparently we did offer enough coin and richmond went beyond the cap to keep him there through buying him a house and company shares or something along those lines.

And thank god for that!

 

[Cap]

agreed Stiffy

I haven't laughed so hard (to myself) when Hollands career went the way of the Dodo.

 

[Big Sledge #32]

I bet we get Pavlich, pay him a heap, lose Knights because we can't up his deal enough due to Pavlich arriving. Pav plays out a couple of injury plagued seasons with us while Knights goes on to have 8 great years with a Melbourne club.

AFC, please just pay Knights the money to keep him.

In 2010 we saw what we are like without him: Shithouse.

I'm afraid his will happen, but I really don't think we are in the ball park for Pav to be honest.

 

[Drugs Are Bad Mackay?]

I'm afraid his will happen, but I really don't think we are in the ball park for Pav to be honest.

That's even worse then.

We will keep all this money aside just in case we can land a big fish, we won't spend it on keeping Knights and then in trade week we will miss out on Pav anyway.

So we'll be left with no good players and paying only 93% of our cap.

 

[fatbarber]

I don't get it! Pav want's a deal, we will have to sell our soul to get him!! - He is getting ...... "on in years" (read Carey) so more injuries etc etc, we have a really young forward line that I for one want to watch develop. So pay the price for what we "NEED"!!

We have a solid back line a frighteningly exciting forward line (needs to mature) In and under players - just missing an A grade Ruck and an outside Mid, so why the hell would you take it up the #** to get a forward even if he is a really good one!