Wizard Cup: WCE v Collingwood

[understudy]

Originally posted by Exeter
I'm prepared to go on record as saying that Collingwood will never win a flag under Malthouse.

I reckon we've seen the best the Pies can dish up in their current incarnation and I think the ever friendly and congenial Micky Malthouse coaching method will start to wear pretty thin in the not to distant future.

Malthouse didn't do much with the Eagles after 94 and by the time he left the welcome mat was well and truly threadbare.

Big call. Just remember we've got just as many up and coming developing players as you guys, GF not withstanding.

Personally i dont think your club would have a premiership if you didnt hire MM and am confident that MM has the skills to take us a long way. Who knows whether we will get one though as they are not easy.

Heres one for you, can Worsfold produce a WCE flag?

 

[Streaker]

Originally posted by understudy
Heres one for you, can Worsfold produce a WCE flag?

In a word, Yes

 

[Ken Ackers]

Personally I cant wait to see Chad Morrison on the park to see if he can revive his career with us. A fit and firing Chad will go a long way to improving our link play from the back line and improve our drive from defense. May also give us a good option on small strong marking fowards (a weakness over the last two years). Will also be very interested to get a look at Seaby, Hanson and Johnson. Have heard that Hanson and Johnson came in to the team with questions over their marking ability so would like to see if they have improved. Seaby on the other hand was described as a champion waiting to happen so I am really excited about his entry into senior footy.

Would be interested to see Billy Morrison in the collingwood side. Any bloke who kicks 9 goals (i think it was 9) on Senior debut at 14 must be some player!!!

 

[Exeter]

Originally posted by understudy
Big call. Just remember we've got just as many up and coming developing players as you guys, GF not withstanding.

Personally i dont think your club would have a premiership if you didnt hire MM and am confident that MM has the skills to take us a long way. Who knows whether we will get one though as they are not easy.

Heres one for you, can Worsfold produce a WCE flag?

No slight intended Understudy, just a statement of personal opinion.

Malthouse was in the right time and place with the Eagles in the early nineties. The Eagles in those days had an outstanding squad and MM was the man to pull the best out of them. They were at their peak from 91 to 94 (slight dip in 93) but fell away markedly after that and by the late nineties both parties had had a gutful of the other.

As a Pies fan, how long do you think Mickey's got before he and the team part company?

Can Woosha get the Eagles to a flag? I don't know but by my estimate he's got two years to show substantial progress otherwise, favourite son or no, he 's gone.

 

[Mead]

Originally posted by understudy
????

Not true.

Heres the actual stats.

Round Date vs. K H P M HO T FF FA G B
ROUND 15 12/07/2003 Carlton 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
ROUND 17 25/07/2003 Hawthorn 2 6 8 1 0 0 0 1 2 0
ROUND 18 03/08/2003 St Kilda 7 4 11 3 0 3 0 0 0 0
ROUND 19 09/08/2003 Adelaide 4 2 6 3 0 1 0 0 0 1
ROUND 20 16/08/2003 Geelong 1 4 5 2 0 3 0 1 0 0
ROUND 21 24/08/2003 Melbourne 6 1 7 3 0 4 1 0 1 0
ROUND 22 30/08/2003 Fremantle 5 2 7 1 0 2 0 0 0 2

Season
AFL 2003 Premiership Season Finals

Round Date vs. K H P M HO T FF FA G B
QUALIFYING FINALS 06/09/2003 Adelaide 4 4 8 2 0 0 0 1 0 0

Admitebly didnt see all these games but wouldnt get too carried away. At junior level his intencity and decision making was very questionable. Credit to worsfold and coaching staff if they have permanetly turned this around. will watch with interest in this game.

cheers

If thats from westcoasteagles.com.au, its another glowing advertisment for Telstra, because the Carlton game is incorrectly listed. Staker was not in the 22 that game, and actually made his debut the following week against Hawthorn.

http://stats.rleague.com/afl/stats/games/2003/CAWC20030712.html

I never saw him at junior level, so I can really only go on what I've seen since he was drafted- at which point I was very impressed at his attitude and ability at training (didn't even have the faintest idea who he was at the time), and even more happy with his WAFL and AFL form. When looking at all of the above stats keep in mind that would have been lucky to play a quarter in most of those games.

 

[Mead]

Originally posted by jod23
I think the toughest calls in these Ansett Games is whether or not to play guys like Gardiner, Cousins, Jako etc... Playing the rookies is all well and good but we need Cuz and Gardy to be in form with some games underneath them for round 1. But do we risk injury in a cup that means nothing?

Play em I say.

I suppose the way I see it is if they're completely fit to play, they're completely fit to play. A fully fit player isn't any more likely to get injured in a wiz cup match than the real thing, so you just have to take your chances I guess.

Having said that, the other thing that needs to be taken into account is that for many of the rookies/youngbloods on our list, the wizard cup is effectively their season. Someone like Nicoski is going to struggle to get an opportunity at AFL level for a few years, so its fair enough to use these games to give them some experience against high level opponents.

I think Cousins will play because he needs to keep his fitness at ridiculously high levels, he's the team leader who will be a lot of help for whichever young'uns we're playing, and he tends to be very resilient to injury anyway (You won't believe the amount of wood I'm touching when I'm saying that.)

Given Gardiner is coming of knee surgery, I'd ease him into the wiz cup. Give him a light game playing at FF- given Collingwood's dearth of ruck, this would be an ideal game for Cox/Seaby/Johnson to impress in the engine room.

 

[understudy]

Originally posted by Exeter
No slight intended Understudy, just a statement of personal opinion.

Malthouse was in the right time and place with the Eagles in the early nineties. The Eagles in those days had an outstanding squad and MM was the man to pull the best out of them. They were at their peak from 91 to 94 (slight dip in 93) but fell away markedly after that and by the late nineties both parties had had a gutful of the other.

As a Pies fan, how long do you think Mickey's got before he and the team part company?

Can Woosha get the Eagles to a flag? I don't know but by my estimate he's got two years to show substantial progress otherwise, favourite son or no, he 's gone.

Tired old theory that seems to come from the west constantly. Over here MM is respected for what he did with WCE, 2 flags and never missed the finals in 10 years, seems to be sport over there for you guys to have shots at him.

How did those great coaching luminary's todd and alexander not get you close if it was such a great squad. Geez and what about what Judge did to WCE. Worsfold on the other hand is respected for turning it around and showing just how bad a coach Judge was.

I respect MM highly and so does the club, as such we have contracted him for 3 years.

 

[no1bankteller]

Originally posted by Mead
(You won't believe the amount of wood I'm touching when I'm saying that.)

Well at least you are modest about it...

 

[theorangeapple]

understudy, im curious wat it is about stakers performances as a junior u didnt like because obviously we were not priviliged to see them. he cant of been too bad tho...didnt he make the TAC team of the year at CHB.

 

[understudy]

Originally posted by theorangeapple
understudy, im curious wat it is about stakers performances as a junior u didnt like because obviously we were not priviliged to see them. he cant of been too bad tho...didnt he make the TAC team of the year at CHB.

as i said above had questionable intencity and poor decision making which often saw him turn the ball over and make bad mistakes. floated in and out of games. performed poorly at the carnival and was nowhere near all australian selection.

cant fault his skills though. many were surprised he was drafted so highly (round 35 from memory) and some didnt have him on their lists at all to be drafed. looks like he probably suited wce needs though, for example doubt he would have got a game last year with many other clubs.

his progress with be determined in whether he can have an impact on games, make correct decisions and consistently produce the intencity required at afl level. it is only his second year so wouldnt be expecting too much of him next year.

but good luck too him.

 

[Mr Q]

Originally posted by understudy
Tired old theory that seems to come from the west constantly. Over here MM is respected for what he did with WCE, 2 flags and never missed the finals in 10 years, seems to be sport over there for you guys to have shots at him.

Hardly. The theory that Malthouse only won flags at the Eagles because of the squad came from Victoria.

Originally posted by understudy
How did those great coaching luminary's todd and alexander not get you close if it was such a great squad.

Alexander got the team 11-11 in the club's first season and was inexplicably sacked. Finished in the top half first up, and in 1988 the Eagles finished 5th. For some reason the Eagles struggled in 1989 (I think its somewhat akin to Brisbane's 1998), and that got Todd the boot, but by then the core of the Eagles side was there, but mostly inexperienced. Hence Malthouse inherited a hugly strong list, but one with little experience.

IMO what Malthouse provided to the Eagles was an ability to bring the younger players on quickly. Sadly after the initial list he had we only had sporadic injections of quality (Banfield, Cousins, Wirrpunda and Gardiner) compared to what we picked up over 87-89.

Originally posted by understudy
Geez and what about what Judge did to WCE. Worsfold on the other hand is respected for turning it around and showing just how bad a coach Judge was.

Worsfold has in many ways inherited a better list than Judge did (who would have forseen that at the end of 2001!). However it is, like in 1990, one which had little experience. Hence it is taking time to come through.

Originally posted by understudy
I respect MM highly and so does the club, as such we have contracted him for 3 years.

I respect Malthouse. After all he brought my club two premierships. However I think he is the sort of coach that gets the best out of the team quickly (hence Collingwood's quick move up the ladder). If the success doesn't come quickly though I'm not sure it will come at all. Had the Eagles won a third premiership under MM I would have liked* Collingwood's chances of winning a flag more than I do

*By "liked" I mean in the betting sense, not in the sense of actually liking Collingwood being a chance. Just thought I should clarify that...

 

[understudy]

Originally posted by Mr Q
Hardly. The theory that Malthouse only won flags at the Eagles because of the squad came from Victoria.

Alexander got the team 11-11 in the club's first season and was inexplicably sacked. Finished in the top half first up, and in 1988 the Eagles finished 5th. For some reason the Eagles struggled in 1989 (I think its somewhat akin to Brisbane's 1998), and that got Todd the boot, but by then the core of the Eagles side was there, but mostly inexperienced. Hence Malthouse inherited a hugly strong list, but one with little experience.

IMO what Malthouse provided to the Eagles was an ability to bring the younger players on quickly. Sadly after the initial list he had we only had sporadic injections of quality (Banfield, Cousins, Wirrpunda and Gardiner) compared to what we picked up over 87-89.

Worsfold has in many ways inherited a better list than Judge did (who would have forseen that at the end of 2001!). However it is, like in 1990, one which had little experience. Hence it is taking time to come through.

I respect Malthouse. After all he brought my club two premierships. However I think he is the sort of coach that gets the best out of the team quickly (hence Collingwood's quick move up the ladder). If the success doesn't come quickly though I'm not sure it will come at all. Had the Eagles won a third premiership under MM I would have liked* Collingwood's chances of winning a flag more than I do

*By "liked" I mean in the betting sense, not in the sense of actually liking Collingwood being a chance. Just thought I should clarify that...

Cant agree with much of that, think you are confusing what came first, whether it was the chicken or the egg. Easy to say in hindsight 'xyz inherited a good list' more often than not coaches who have success build, refine and develop the list of players into what they are that creates the success. There is not much luck in being a successful coach. Plenty have tried, many have failed, few have succeeded.

To take a team to 10 finals series in 10 years in the modern era is a fantastic achievement.

 

[Exeter]

Originally posted by understudy
Tired old theory that seems to come from the west constantly. Over here MM is respected for what he did with WCE, 2 flags and never missed the finals in 10 years, seems to be sport over there for you guys to have shots at him.

How did those great coaching luminary's todd and alexander not get you close if it was such a great squad. Geez and what about what Judge did to WCE. Worsfold on the other hand is respected for turning it around and showing just how bad a coach Judge was.

I respect MM highly and so does the club, as such we have contracted him for 3 years.

Tired old theory it may be, but WCE supporters are probably better palced than most to comment on Malthouse's coaching credentials. A signficant percentage of WCE fans are of the view that we should have had a third flag, and been in serious contention for a fourth in that period.

That we made the finals ten years in a row is laudable, that we pretty well only made up the numbers for about five of them is a different story. You missed my point I think, I'm not saying Malthouse is a crap coach, quite the opposite - he's a very good one, especially in relation to our first two who were not AFL standard IMO - which is why they didn't last long.

Judge was a personality challenged vandal who had no rapport with the team.

The jury is still out on Woosha.

Malthouse's success at the Eagles was early in his tenure - within the first five years. My question was, with no dig or sledging implied, given that MM has been at the Pies for 5(?) years and has coached them to two grand finals in a row (an impressive achievement) does he have the wherewithal to get that bit extra necessary for a flag within the next two years?

 

[understudy]

Originally posted by Exeter
Tired old theory it may be, but WCE supporters are probably better palced than most to comment on Malthouse's coaching credentials. A signficant percentage of WCE fans are of the view that we should have had a third flag, and been in serious contention for a fourth in that period.

That we made the finals ten years in a row is laudable, that we pretty well only made up the numbers for about five of them is a different story. You missed my point I think, I'm not saying Malthouse is a crap coach, quite the opposite - he's a very good one, especially in relation to our first two who were not AFL standard IMO - which is why they didn't last long.

Judge was a personality challenged vandal who had no rapport with the team.

The jury is still out on Woosha.

Malthouse's success at the Eagles was early in his tenure - within the first five years. My question was, with no dig or sledging implied, given that MM has been at the Pies for 5(?) years and has coached them to two grand finals in a row (an impressive achievement) does he have the wherewithal to get that bit extra necessary for a flag within the next two years?

To me west people are biased against MM and hence not in a good position to judge, dont know why maybe because he is a Vic etc and left you guys for greener pastures. The media over there are made up of second rate hacks langdon, hardy, barich etc that were on the end of MM and feed u guys crap.

MM has had 4 years with us. Took over in 2000 after the disaster of 1999 wooden spoon under shaw (winning 5 games)

2000 - won 7 games
2001 - won 11 games and unlucky to miss finals.
2002 - won 13 in H&A and made GF
2003 - won 15 games in H&A and made GF.
2004 - ??????

The only sensible answer to the question i can give is that i and the committee believe MM is the best man for the job and would not want anyone else in his position. We have developed tremedously under him and are very confident that we will continue to develop under him.

As to whether we will get across the line or not? Only time will tell.

 

[Exeter]

Originally posted by understudy
To me west people are biased against MM and hence not in a good position to judge, dont know why maybe because he is a Vic etc and left you guys for greener pastures. The media over there are made up of second rate hacks langdon, hardy, barich etc that were on the end of MM and feed u guys crap.

A couple of points to respond to there. You may be right (I stress "may") about some bias against MM from some sectors. That has nothing to do with being Victorian but probably quite a bit to do with the fact that he was arrogant, exclusive and didn't give the supporters a whole lot of time or respect.

"Greener pastures" is a relative term. There is no doubt that he'd run his race in Perth and, while still greatly respected for what he achieved, everyone, including him, realised it was time for him to go - he'd run his race with the Eagles.

Your closing sentence makes a few erroneous assumptions:

1. That Perth is an isolated, hicktown backwater with no capacity for critical thinking or an appreciation of the broader AFL environment. Wrong.

2. That the media in Perth is made up exclusively of the clowns to which you refer. It's not.

3. That Langdon, Barich et al are taken seriously by footy fans in the west - they're not.

4. That we don't have access to the commentary provided by the ABC, The Age, The Australian and the Herald Sun - we do, and we use it.

 

[understudy]

Originally posted by Exeter
A couple of points to respond to there. You may be right (I stress "may") about some bias against MM from some sectors. That has nothing to do with being Victorian but probably quite a bit to do with the fact that he was arrogant, exclusive and didn't give the supporters a whole lot of time or respect.

"Greener pastures" is a relative term. There is no doubt that he'd run his race in Perth and, while still greatly respected for what he achieved, everyone, including him, realised it was time for him to go - he'd run his race with the Eagles.

Your closing sentence makes a few erroneous assumptions:

1. That Perth is an isolated, hicktown backwater with no capacity for critical thinking or an appreciation of the broader AFL environment. Wrong.

2. That the media in Perth is made up exclusively of the clowns to which you refer. It's not.

3. That Langdon, Barich et al are taken seriously by footy fans in the west - they're not.

4. That we don't have access to the commentary provided by the ABC, The Age, The Australian and the Herald Sun - we do, and we use it.

fair enough.

nice sparing with you!

all the best for the Wizz Cup.

 

[Mr Q]

Originally posted by understudy
Cant agree with much of that, think you are confusing what came first, whether it was the chicken or the egg. Easy to say in hindsight 'xyz inherited a good list' more often than not coaches who have success build, refine and develop the list of players

I'm just basing it upon when the players who won the Eagles two premierships in the 90s actually joined the team. When you get right down to it they were nearly all there before Malthouse came along.

The match winners at the Eagles in the early 90s were either already proven performers before Malthouse arrives (Worsfold, Mainwairing, McKenna, Sumich) or would have been champions under anyone up to and including Ken Judge (Matera, Kemp, Jakovich, McIntosh). All those I named were actually at the club at the start of 1990 - the Eagles did not do a clean out of the players at that time (it was done at the end of 88 for some unknown reason).

I still maintain that Malthouse did an excellent job getting the '92 and '94 flags to Perth, however I don't think to say he built the team at West Coast is in any way accurate; it was already there. He can mould a team well, but I don't know if he can get that bit extra out of a team that say Pagan or Sheedy can. If he could, I think West Coast would have won in '96.

My gut feeling is that the Pies have done what they can and won't move on any further. Collingwood might prove me wrong, but I'd be expecting the Pies to slip a bit in 2004 and then hang around mid-table for a number of years.

 

[Ken Ackers]

We would have had a better chance of winning in 96 had we not had to play Essendon at the G when we should have played them at home. Boy did they turn up to play that day.

 

[understudy]

Originally posted by Mr Q
I'm just basing it upon when the players who won the Eagles two premierships in the 90s actually joined the team. When you get right down to it they were nearly all there before Malthouse came along.

The match winners at the Eagles in the early 90s were either already proven performers before Malthouse arrives (Worsfold, Mainwairing, McKenna, Sumich) or would have been champions under anyone up to and including Ken Judge (Matera, Kemp, Jakovich, McIntosh). All those I named were actually at the club at the start of 1990 - the Eagles did not do a clean out of the players at that time (it was done at the end of 88 for some unknown reason).

I still maintain that Malthouse did an excellent job getting the '92 and '94 flags to Perth, however I don't think to say he built the team at West Coast is in any way accurate; it was already there. He can mould a team well, but I don't know if he can get that bit extra out of a team that say Pagan or Sheedy can. If he could, I think West Coast would have won in '96.

My gut feeling is that the Pies have done what they can and won't move on any further. Collingwood might prove me wrong, but I'd be expecting the Pies to slip a bit in 2004 and then hang around mid-table for a number of years.

Again cant agree with much of that.

The Collingwood MM took over is completely different to when he took over wce. We are young developing list that has come on very quickly and i expect to come on even more. Cant see any reason why we will not continue the development we have had so far under MM, given the young age of our list, thus making us an even better side.

 

[Exeter]

Originally posted by understudy
fair enough.

nice sparing with you!

all the best for the Wizz Cup.

Cheers.

 

[understudy]

no more injuries to pies.

pies practice match went well.

eagles?

 

[thegur]

First of all ...

1. nice reference by Jod to the Ansett Cup, bought back memories, but then again I would have been more impressed if he had of name dropped Panasonic Cup ...

2. Can we get a count of the amount of posts Mead has written glowing reports of Buffy? Perhaps he just ctrl+V's??

3. I'm going to throw something completely out of left field. First some givens ...

a. Trent Carroll has no talent.
b. The following players are injured: Glass, Gaspar, Buffy and Hunter.
c. The Hulk is not quite up to it.
d. Johnson is ready for a crack at FF.

Why not throw Howser to FB just for a learning experience? I'm not saying he'll be as versatile as Silvagni, or perhaps even Jeff Hogg (there's a blast from the past for you!) but surely it could not hurt the kid to play a little bit of defensive footy?

I was just trying to think of ways to keep Carroll out.

rant over

thegur

 

[Streaker]

Originally posted by thegur
First of all ...

1. nice reference by Jod to the Ansett Cup, bought back memories, but then again I would have been more impressed if he had of name dropped Panasonic Cup ...

2. Can we get a count of the amount of posts Mead has written glowing reports of Buffy? Perhaps he just ctrl+V's??

3. I'm going to throw something completely out of left field. First some givens ...

a. Trent Carroll has no talent.
b. The following players are injured: Glass, Gaspar, Buffy and Hunter.
c. The Hulk is not quite up to it.
d. Johnson is ready for a crack at FF.

Why not throw Howser to FB just for a learning experience? I'm not saying he'll be as versatile as Silvagni, or perhaps even Jeff Hogg (there's a blast from the past for you!) but surely it could not hurt the kid to play a little bit of defensive footy?

I was just trying to think of ways to keep Carroll out.

rant over

thegur

Would Embers have the pace to go with Tarrant?
Doogs on Tarrant would be about the best matchup we could get if Staker is out, unless Carroll found some extra pace and footy smarts in santa's sack over Christmas.

From all accounts, Staker will be fit to play and Gardiner won't play. How big is the bench this year?

Be some interesting matchups needed this weekend.

 

[DanielKerr4]

Originally posted by West Coast Stre
Would Embers have the pace to go with Tarrant?
Doogs on Tarrant would be about the best matchup we could get if Staker is out, unless Carroll found some extra pace and footy smarts in santa's sack over Christmas.

From all accounts, Staker will be fit to play and Gardiner won't play. How big is the bench this year?

Be some interesting matchups needed this weekend.

Tarrant surely wouldnt play would he??? They wouldnt risk him. I reckon Staker will play and i reckon he will play at CHB with Carroll at FB. I really dont think Trent is that bad!!!!

I think Paul Johnson should play at Full-Forward with Doogs at CHF, that should be nice to watch against the under-sized backline of the Pies.

Buckley head to head with Cousins both going at about 75%???

Cheers, DK4

 

[understudy]

Originally posted by DanielKerr4
Tarrant surely wouldnt play would he??? They wouldnt risk him. I reckon Staker will play and i reckon he will play at CHB with Carroll at FB. I really dont think Trent is that bad!!!!

I think Paul Johnson should play at Full-Forward with Doogs at CHF, that should be nice to watch against the under-sized backline of the Pies.

Buckley head to head with Cousins both going at about 75%???

Cheers, DK4

Never heard of Johnson. Doughal would be covered by either Wakelin or Presti. Then we have Cloke. Hardly undersized. Showed be able to cover your inexperienced forward half in theory.