Woggabaliri

[smalldog]

I still read it liike that, though I could be wrong

Bottom line is we still have a likely false claim hanging there and neither party (ASC or Ken) seem concerned enough to correct the record either way.

How hard could it be to just upload the central evidence of the existence of this game and let others assess?

You think there is a false claim.

As far as I can see what has been said is that some aborigines played a game that involved kicking a ball and excluded using the hands. Which surely is not a far fetched notion. Mind you this is amongst something like a hundred games mentioned in the book, but only woggabaliri has caused great excitement.

What is the false claim? that this game existed?

Given he's got 4000 entries on the games who know's how many on woggabaliri it may not be that simple to upload the documents, and after seeing comments made I guess he's not inclined to.

 

[Subprime]

Have a read back over some posts there's words like hoax, fraud, and one poster saying he should defend himself because he's being accused of fabricating aboriginal history.

Maybe it's not this website that the 'modified, misinterpreted etc' comment it's about but the first paragraph mentions 'the website' and the fact that he's appalled at some of the comments.

In the second email he also says 'What the ASC chooses to say and do about the games now is something I have little control over as they have copyright. I do not even know what it being said and done.'

Which leads me to think he's not accusing the ASC of misrepresenting him. Also, I think other posters have said or implied that the ASC website just requrgitates what's in his book.

Calling someone names isn't the same thing as misrepresenting their research.

The only parties that I can see that have made representations about Ken Edwards' work are the ASC (through their promotion of Woggabaliri with soccer goals added) and the FFA who claim the game is evidence of a soccer heritage.

Everything else is just comment, good or bad, appalling or otherwise.

 

[Barkly St End]

As far as I can see what has been said is that some aborigines played a game that involved kicking a ball and excluded using the hands. Which surely is not a far fetched notion. Mind you this is amongst something like a hundred games mentioned in the book, but only woggabaliri has caused great excitement.

Apart from his book there is zero documented evidence that anything called Woggabaliri ever existed.

Quite simply, it's likely this is a hoax, and at least two Government bodies have not only run with the claim - have actallly exaggerated the claim:

1. The ASC have called it the "oldest game in Australia"; and
2. The Government backed WC bid refers to the existence of Woggabaliri as evidence of Australia's national heritage in soccer.

We can handle one academic being conned for a bit of a lark, has happened before and will happen again, but for Government bodies to make bold unsubstantiated claims, for seemingly the purposes of self-interest, is starting to go a tad too far.

 

[Illinois Nazi]

What is the false claim?

How about this photo:

with the caption "Children playing a traditional Indigenous game"

Now it's no great stretch to imagine that many cultures world-wide developed games that involved a ball and "no hands", but to claim a link between that and some kids doing soccer drillls is a bit much. (Not to mention that they are doing a dribbling drill, when the whole point of the indigenous game is meant to be not letting the ball hit the ground?)

You might as well have a photo of Caine Eckstein participating in the traditional indigenous pastime of surf lifesaving, because an aboriginal once fell in the water at Bondi and was pulled out by some of his mates.

 

[nofitzroynoafl]

In the photo above I don't think it means that Soccer is an indigenous game, but the drills they are doing are loosely based on an indigenous game, that would be my interpretation of it.
I think that there is a handful of people who are offended and outraged by Woggabaliri to the point of calling someone names and accusing him of things that are probably not warranted.
But I will say this, you poeple shouldn't worry, we are a good chance of getting the World Cup even if Woggabiliri is disproven, so don't be disheartened.

 

[invinciBlues]

Who to believe?

Someone who has been researching indigenous sports history for several decades or a small band of fanatics who have devoted their lives to an anti world cup campaign over the last year?

When this happens:

All roads lead back to Ken Edwards, even when various bodies have a reference to it (it quotes his book directly).

...it is usually considered in the realms of academia to be "original research". To find no other link other than hearsay generally means the guy just made it up. Which is excellent in some fields of study, but definitely not in History.

No documentation. No cave paintings. No nothing, other than "I heard this from a guy this one time, and here is a picture of people playing an unrelated game, several thousand kilometres from where I said the game was prominent".

USQ gave this guy a PhD? Not surprised. No wonder they are generally considered a special needs institution.

 

[Illinois Nazi]

In the photo above I don't think it means that Soccer is an indigenous game, but the drills they are doing are loosely based on an indigenous game, that would be my interpretation of it.

Except that they clearly aren't.

But I will say this, you poeple shouldn't worry, we are a good chance of getting the World Cup even if Woggabiliri is disproven, so don't be disheartened.

True, this whole thing will have zero impact on the final decision.

 

[Subprime]

In the photo above I don't think it means that Soccer is an indigenous game, but the drills they are doing are loosely based on an indigenous game, that would be my interpretation of it.
....

Loosely based on an indiginous game?

Its a picture of kids dribbling a soccer ball.

 

[Chaz Pendlebury]

How funny is this nofitzroynoafl dude?

Won't follow football cos one club in almost 100 years was forced into a merger, but presumably follows the A-League which is wholely a league of franchises that was founded on the almost wholescale disenfranchisement of the existing clubs...go figure

And on the off chance that you've actually read through the thread with a clear mind, it is the ASC I have issues with not the FFA using what the ASC have fabricated in the bid book

 

[ian 13]

USQ gave this guy a PhD? Not surprised. No wonder they are generally considered a special needs institution.

Ken Edwards

Qualifications : DipT BrisbaneCAE
MSc Griffith
PhD Qld

And you have the front to criticise his research.

Come on boys, Woggabaliri is probably bullshit but you are all playing the man.

I've had a look at some of Edwards' stuff and the material he refers to. It's all steady and speculative research that reaches very few absolute conclusions. It is appropriately framed exploratory research. The Aboriginal games book is a handbook meant for show purposes and is hardly a scholarly tome.

Those who are blaming the FFA are on the money. They are liars with little concern for historical truth -- like all corporate sporting bodies.

But CP, you are a disgrace. You have stupidly defamed Edwards ("fraud", "charlatan" etc.) and you leave this web site open to legal action. I'm surprised the moderators haven't intervened.

 

[jayjones1]

lol

 

[cos789]

whole point of the indigenous game is meant to be not letting the ball hit the ground?.

So it bears little relation to soccer but much closer to a common Asian game .

.

 

[Illinois Nazi]

So it bears little relation to soccer but much closer to a common Asian game .

Probably. It certainly bears no relation at all that I can see to dribbling a soccer ball through a bunch of plastic cones.

 

[Pie eyed]

Ken Edwards

Qualifications : DipT BrisbaneCAE
MSc Griffith
PhD Qld

And you have the front to criticise his research.

Come on boys, Woggabaliri is probably bullshit but you are all playing the man.

I've had a look at some of Edwards' stuff and the material he refers to. It's all steady and speculative research that reaches very few absolute conclusions. It is appropriately framed exploratory research. The Aboriginal games book is a handbook meant for show purposes and is hardly a scholarly tome.

Those who are blaming the FFA are on the money. They are liars with little concern for historical truth -- like all corporate sporting bodies.

But CP, you are a disgrace. You have stupidly defamed Edwards ("fraud", "charlatan" etc.) and you leave this web site open to legal action. I'm surprised the moderators haven't intervened.

I agree.
Ken Edwards has no case to answer here.
He has merely recorded the information he gathered and also made it perfectly clear that much of it is third person account and some are even duplicated.

The beef is about the tenuous link to the european game of soccer being propagated by the ASC and the fraudulent claims being made by the FFA in there bid propaganda.

Aim there.

I did a fair bit of the leg work getting some response from the ASC and the actual author so why don't a few others get on to the ASC and the FFA and get some answers from those who authored their claims?

 

[jpdixon]

Apart from his book there is zero documented evidence that anything called Woggabaliri ever existed.

Yes, but the Ngunnawal dictionary is pretty good evidence that any number of games might have been called woggabaliri at some point or another. The name isn't the issue...

To find no other link other than hearsay generally means the guy just made it up. Which is excellent in some fields of study, but definitely not in History.

No documentation. No cave paintings. No nothing, other than "I heard this from a guy this one time, and here is a picture of people playing an unrelated game, several thousand kilometres from where I said the game was prominent".

Never heard of oral history?

Now it's no great stretch to imagine that many cultures world-wide developed games that involved a ball and "no hands", but to claim a link between that and some kids doing soccer drillls is a bit much. (Not to mention that they are doing a dribbling drill, when the whole point of the indigenous game is meant to be not letting the ball hit the ground?)

That might make sense if the caption was making any sort of claim about this supposedly no-hands game, but it's on a page about lots of games, and just says "a traditional Indigenous game". Pretty clear that someone has decided to take one of the other games on the website and use it as part of soccer training. It's probably only got a little in common with the original game, but that's not news... What's any of it got to do with the nonsense about a soccer heritage?

 

[Barkly St End]

Yes, but the Ngunnawal dictionary is pretty good evidence that any number of games might have been called woggabaliri at some point or another. The name isn't the issue...

It's not evidence of anything, to be honest. And the question has to be asked why he mistakenly referred to it as a Wiradyuri word. Note that he he has placed the game in the Wiradyuri territory.

Never heard of oral history?

Happy to hear what the sources are, the context, and whether it's corroborated by eye-witness accounts - to date, there appears to be zero evidence of anything.

 

[Munro_Mick]

In the same ludicrous way the soccer wc bid shows all the oval stadiums as rectangles and never mentions Australian football anywhere to give the impression Australians actually care about soccer/Woggabsaliri.

.

Absolutely agreed.

The hijacking by soccer folk of the phrase 'Australian Football' is annoying in the extreme.

We've probably all stumbled across this one (from NSW, Eddie McGuire is right, Sydney isn't just a different city, it's a different country) : http://www.migrationheritage.nsw.gov.au/exhibitions/worldcup/history-pre74.shtml

The section headed "Australian Football- Pre 1974 "

and goes on : The story of Aussie football began back in the 1880s and 90s when British settlers brought the game to the mainland colonies of Australia.

And you can't help but recongise a deliberate ommission of disambiguation language.

and the timeline section :
1880s

1880 Football first officially played in NSW (Wanderers Vs Kings School) - organised by John Walter Fletcher.

The first recorded soccer match in Australia was played on Parramatta Common in Sydney on the afternoon of Saturday 14 August 1880.

The cross over of 'football' to 'soccer' ignores therefore that 'football' had been played for several decades already in Australia, Rugby type games in Sydney for almost 2 decades already, and even Victorian Rules Football had been played in NSW/Sydney prior to that.

History revisionists at play.

So, to see the official WC website not recognise Australian Football at the MCG is crazed. The irony is the only mention is with relation to the Sydney Olympic stadium. Rugby gets more mentions, there and at the SFS and Suncorp.

And, it's supposed to be a bid for ALL Australians.......ah well, they currently claim 297,045 voices........how many AFL/club members are there?? The WC bid voices don't even need to pay to be added to the tally!!

 

[Dimenhydrinate]

So, to see the official WC website not recognise Australian Football at the MCG is crazed.

Why would they? What does AFL have to do with the bid, apparently from being an obstacle?

 

[maroon and blue]

The Romans would adopt Pagan rituals as a way of assimilating conquered people into their culture. As did Christianity in its early years. All soccer is doing is the same, its the oldest trick in the book, just ask Moses. I'm sure the the safekeepers of Australian Football are aware of this and will combat it.

 

[maroon and blue]

Yes, but the Ngunnawal dictionary is pretty good evidence that any number of games might have been called woggabaliri at some point or another. The name isn't the issue...



Never heard of oral history?




That might make sense if the caption was making any sort of claim about this supposedly no-hands game, but it's on a page about lots of games, and just says "a traditional Indigenous game". Pretty clear that someone has decided to take one of the other games on the website and use it as part of soccer training. It's probably only got a little in common with the original game, but that's not news... What's any of it got to do with the nonsense about a soccer heritage?

Hmm; now lets see, there's written history you can read, there's graphic history, you can see it, there's oral history, you're supposed to record it if you a are a serious historian and not a charlatan(cowboy). Sounds like this bloke heard it from a bloke who heard from a bloke in a pub. But hey, tax payers money in the tens of millions is worth pub talk.

 

[SJ]

Foster hops on the Woggabaliri train:

http://www.smh.com.au/sport/footbal...ly-embrace-the-world-game-20111022-1mdjf.html

Woggabaliri. Remember the name. It is the earliest known form of ball sport played by indigenous Australians and, according to the Australian Sports Commission, the game most closely resembled association football.

Of course it did, as Woggabaliri places Aboriginal Australia perfectly in sync with the rest of the planet and the vast majority of their indigenous brethren worldwide, in playing a form of football, the world game.

http://www.smh.com.au/sport/footbal...ly-embrace-the-world-game-20111022-1mdjf.html

 

[Ice-Wolf]

Foster hops on the Woggabaliri train:

http://www.smh.com.au/sport/footbal...ly-embrace-the-world-game-20111022-1mdjf.html

http://www.smh.com.au/sport/footbal...ly-embrace-the-world-game-20111022-1mdjf.html

What a moron! "Woggabaliri" is surely just another in a long line of piss takes, some academic didn't realise someone was having a lend of them nd the Association Football fanatics are willing to go along with it purely to further their agenda.

Look at the name someone just took the name wog ball and aboriginalised it.

 

[Righteo]

It actually wouldn't surprise me if Foster was a troll on BF, because it's all he seems to do IRL anyway

"Of course it did, as Woggabaliri places Aboriginal Australia perfectly in sync with the rest of the planet and the vast majority of their indigenous brethren worldwide, in playing a form of football, the world game."

There's no way he could seriously believe this, surely Massive troll.

 

[Scully2Folau]

Indigenous Australians didn't have a word for "sport" or "leisure", true story.

 

[Righteo]

Indigenous Australians didn't have a word for "sport" or "leisure", true story.

Aren't there dozens upon dozens of different languages and dialects spoken by the people of many different tribes/regions?