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Woggabaliri

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ZabsBlues said:
I have never heard of these people. Djinghali sounds like an African tribe :eek:.
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Local call number: RS 57/13
Personal Author: Harney, W. E. (William Edward), 1895-1962
Title: Sport and play amidst the Aborigines of the Northern Territory
Annotation: Types of games played; Wargite tribe, Djinghali, Walbri
Source: Mankind -- 1952; v.4, no.9; 377-379
Language/Group: Batjamal / Wogait people (N6) (NT SD52-7)
Language/Group: Jingulu / Djingili / Jingili people (C22) (NT SE53-6)
Language/Group: Warlpiri people (C15) (NT SF52-4)
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They are actually mentioned a bit on the AIATSIS Library.
I'll bet there are hundreds of tribal groups none of us have ever heard of.
That is not really the point.
 
Chaz Pendlebury said:
Zabs, here is a good starting point if you sincerely want to get a feel about the aboriginal nations that existed pre-europeans.

http://www.abc.net.au/indigenous/map/default.htm

The point of this thread though is the apaprent fabrication of the history of these people for a clealry modern agenda.
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Thanks mate, I am a Walpiri/ Aranda man Liam Jurrah is my nephew. Djinghali is not a central australian tribe they are from the top end. ASC are saying they are a tribe from the centre which is not true. Me thinks woggabiliri is all bs.
 
ZabsBlues said:
Thanks mate, I am a Walpiri/ Aranda man Liam Jurrah is my nephew. Djinghali is not a central australian tribe they are from the top end. ASC are saying they are a tribe from the centre which is not true. Me thinks woggabiliri is all bs.
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Haha, sorry Zabs...just assumed you were are red neck!
 

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This is the response to my request that Ken Edwards may like to participate in the discussion from Ken Edwards, the author of the book.
Following that is his response to my request that I quote his
original response in this thread.

[FONT=&quot]Thank you for informing me about the web site with the discussion of the traditional games. I read through some of the entries and discussions and was so appalled at some of the comments I just do not know what to make of it. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]I have an bibliography of almost 4000 entries on indigenous games and sports based on research from all around Australia over many years (over 26 file cabinet drawers). I did the research and the book for the ASC (and used original accounts not revisionist information) and to see information selectively taken from it, modified. misinterpreted etc. is unbelievable. I cannot answer for the motives and actions of others and I see no purpose in being placed in a ‘defensive’ position of justifying things that are beyond my control. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]I am far too busy to become angry dealing with some of the absurd comments I have read. For those that have chosen to make personal attacks on me without any real reason then that is their prerogative but I choose to ignore them.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Regards[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]
Ken[/FONT]
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[FONT=&quot]I do not mind if you pass on my sentiments but I would add that the traditional games book clearly states that the games are taken from original (not always accurate accounts) or incomplete records are designed to outline the intent or purpose of an activity observed. I notice from my bibliography I have almost 1000 separate accounts on ball games. I did not combine any of them although I had up to 7 different versions of the same game from the same area – these observations over time are a bit like the changes to a game of backyard cricket and are context, observer and historical time influenced. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]The process for the ASC book involved extensive consultation with traditional owners of games and indigenous organisations around Australia. They just did not get made up and there are signed legal documents. What the ASC chooses to say and do about the games now is something I have little control over as they have copyright. I do not even know what it being said and done.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]There is nothing that stirs passions so much as sport. Being involved with any sport is a good start to any cutlery set except all you get is knives.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Regards[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Ken[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
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^^
That's good of him to reply.
I don't think that anyone has 'modified' anything that was written in the book though - at least not deliberately.

He says though
'...(not always accurate accounts) or incomplete records...'

Surely it would be prudent to leave those activities out that you aren't sure about (whether Woggabaliri fits into that I don't know), though I understand his reasoning to putting them in

I'm not sure what to make of it all tbh

PS - I wrote earlier that I couldn't find a reference to the ASC in the book but upon re-reading it I did notice that it says that it was published with a grant from the ASC.
 
Hawkers said:
^^
That's good of him to reply.
I don't think that anyone has 'modified' anything that was written in the book though - at least not deliberately.

He says though
'...(not always accurate accounts) or incomplete records...'

Surely it would be prudent to leave those activities out that you aren't sure about (whether Woggabaliri fits into that I don't know), though I understand his reasoning to putting them in

I'm not sure what to make of it all tbh
PS - I wrote earlier that I couldn't find a reference to the ASC in the book but upon re-reading it I did notice that it says that it was published with a grant from the ASC.
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So long as these distinctions are clear and present in the bokk I can't see what you could worry about.
 
As I said earlier in the thread, I think people were being a bit harsh on Ken. It is the ASC that turned his accounts of traditional games into a derivative of soccer. It is the ASC that bizarrely called it the oldest aboriginal game. It is the ASC that is pushing modern variations of the game that have no relationship to the traditional version to try and increase indigenous participation in soccer.

Why blame Ken when all of the issues come from the ASC?? He seems genuine in his interest in this area and his research seems valid. At the very least, it is the best going around.
 
The fact remains: we have absolutely nothing on Woggabaliri except what's mentioned in this book.

Nothing else exists. There is still plenty of doubt as to what the source of the story was.

He's quite right that he has no control over what the ASC or the FFA does with the story.
 
I'd like to know what elements of his research has had "information selectively taken from it" or been "modified, misinterpreted etc".
 
Great work again, Pie Eyed

So now we have:

The ASC pass the buck to Ken Edwards

Ken Edwards claims the ASC have miss-represented his work

And Woggabaliri now exists to the casual wiki researcher:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Woggabaliri

Any journo can read through this thread and most of the investigative work is done for them.....wouldn't hold my breath though
 

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Have a look at this account of one of the games Edwards includes in his book:
http://www.rl1908.com/History/Buroinjin.htm

by Sean Fagan (a rugby historian).

What do we see? Good references, quotes from source documents and sources of any oral history quoted, along with context and background.

All the things we are currently lacking with Woggabaliri.

Also, look at the eye witness account of a game being played in the Riverina, smack bang in the middle of Wiradyuri territory, in that box at the bottom of the article.

Does it remind anyone of anything? Certainly not of Woggabaliri!!
 
^^ That's a good article. Multiple sources, all provided, with references that date back well past 2000.

Woggabiliri may be genuine. I'm sure Ken Edwards did a fantastic job gathering reports of all of these sports he has looked at. But the way the ASC has taken it and run with it, knowing absolutely nothing about it, is ludicrous.
 
bloodstainedangel5 said:
^^ That's a good article. Multiple sources, all provided, with references that date back well past 2000.

Woggabiliri may be genuine. I'm sure Ken Edwards did a fantastic job gathering reports of all of these sports he has looked at. But the way the ASC has taken it and run with it, knowing absolutely nothing about it, is ludicrous.
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I think you've hit the nail on the head.
Ken Edwards has contributed what can by way of the research he has undertaken, and from what I can see made no outlandish claims or associations with any of the modern games.

The ASC are the body that should be justifying it's leap, claiming that there is some link to soccer other than the fact a ball of some description is used.

The inclusion of a picture featuring a soccer ball and plastic cones which claims to represent an indigenous game is highly fraudulent.
 
bloodstainedangel5 said:
^^ That's a good article. Multiple sources, all provided, with references that date back well past 2000.

Woggabiliri may be genuine. I'm sure Ken Edwards did a fantastic job gathering reports of all of these sports he has looked at. But the way the ASC has taken it and run with it, knowing absolutely nothing about it, is ludicrous.
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In the same ludicrous way the soccer wc bid shows all the oval stadiums as rectangles and never mentions Australian football anywhere to give the impression Australians actually care about soccer/Woggabsaliri.

.
 
cos789 said:
In the same ludicrous way the soccer wc bid shows all the oval stadiums as rectangles and never mentions Australian football anywhere to give the impression Australians actually care about soccer/Woggabsaliri.

.
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It's even worse than that. The bid makes reference to Woggabaliri as evidence of our national heritage in soccer.
 

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Have had a loose look at this thread, how is the ASC involved with the FFA ?.
 
Chaz Pendlebury said:
Great work again, Pie Eyed

So now we have:

The ASC pass the buck to Ken Edwards

Ken Edwards claims the ASC have miss-represented his work

And Woggabaliri now exists to the casual wiki researcher:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Woggabaliri

Any journo can read through this thread and most of the investigative work is done for them.....wouldn't hold my breath though
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Where did Ken Edwards claim the ASC have miss represented his work? You don't think his email could be referring to this website?
 
smalldog said:
Where did Ken Edwards claim the ASC have miss represented his work? You don't think his email could be referring to this website?
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I still read it liike that, though I could be wrong

Bottom line is we still have a likely false claim hanging there and neither party (ASC or Ken) seem concerned enough to correct the record either way.

How hard could it be to just upload the central evidence of the existence of this game and let others assess?
 
Subprime said:
How has this website has done that?
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Have a read back over some posts there's words like hoax, fraud, and one poster saying he should defend himself because he's being accused of fabricating aboriginal history.

Maybe it's not this website that the 'modified, misinterpreted etc' comment it's about but the first paragraph mentions 'the website' and the fact that he's appalled at some of the comments.

In the second email he also says 'What the ASC chooses to say and do about the games now is something I have little control over as they have copyright. I do not even know what it being said and done.'

Which leads me to think he's not accusing the ASC of misrepresenting him. Also, I think other posters have said or implied that the ASC website just requrgitates what's in his book.
 
cos789 said:
In the same ludicrous way the soccer wc bid shows all the oval stadiums as rectangles

.
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Huh? This image is from the bid website;
MCG.jpg
 

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