Worst forward line, midfield, and defence to win a premiership in the AFL era?

[ZEV]

North in 96 had a very workmanlike midfield.

Schwass, Rock, Freeborn, Stevens, Simpson.

Not bad players by any means but not the top of the line players.

Great bookends though and pretty much no passengers in that team.

They did have McKernan who was the AFL MVP that season and polled equal most Brownlow votes...

 

[Mr Meow]

Yes it’s asking a question for each line, I was talking about the fwd line

It’s not asking which whole team is the worst to win a flag.

Ablett and Bartel actually rotated on a forward flank 2007-2010. Often one would be on a flank while the other was mids. The others (Ling, Corey, Kelly, Selwood etc) didn't do it.

The more you know.

 

[DanA]

I agree with the first 2, but I thought Sydney’s Midfield, whilst not stellar, was fairly good

I struggled to find a weak midfield, they were all pretty good and I was actually thinking a few of the guys in Sydney weren’t as bad as they were underrated. But it was the best I could come up with.

 

[deflated]

I struggled to find a weak midfield, they were all pretty good and I was actually thinking a few of the guys in Sydney weren’t as bad as they were underrated. But it was the best I could come up with.

Oof. Just comparing the 2005 and 2012 Swans midfields the 2012 group is streets ahead, 9 AA spots between them and then Goodes dropping back from up front when something extra was needed. 2005 had Luke Ablett, Paul Bevan and Amos Buchanan spending time in the middle in the GF, love that 2005 team but not close.

 

[Bunk Moreland]

Hawthorn’s 2008 backline was poor. Obviously Hodge, but after that… not much? Birchall a solid player.

No size at all - Hodge and Croad were nominally the key posts.

Gun midfield and forward line got it done.

 

[RUNVS]

Hawthorn’s 2008 backline was poor. Obviously Hodge, but after that… not much? Birchall a solid player.

No size at all - Hodge and Croad were nominally the key posts.

Gun midfield and forward line got it done.

I think it helped that Geelong's forward line in 2008 was equally as poor.

 

[Cleansweep17]

Ablett and Bartel actually rotated on a forward flank 2007-2010. Often one would be on a flank while the other was mids. The others (Ling, Corey, Kelly, Selwood etc) didn't do it.

The more you know.

I know, but these guys aren’t known as forwards are they, however I guess you could say Bartel was a utility. They did their best work mainly as midfielders. The more you know.

 

[Mr Meow]

I know, but these guys aren’t known as forwards are they, however I guess you could say Bartel was a utility. They did their best work mainly as midfielders. The more you know.

Well they were definitely important parts of our forward line or else we wouldn't have saved a forward flank for them to rotate on. Bartel could also play deeper as you alluded to, while Ablett across half forward was similar to Miers is currently. In 2010 he spent more time there which is why his goal/assist numbers spiked.

If anything 2008 was the year it wasn't used as much, with a detrimental effect.

 

[Cleansweep17]

Well they were definitely important parts of our forward line or else we wouldn't have saved a forward flank for them to rotate on. Bartel could also play deeper as you alluded to, while Ablett across half forward was similar to Miers is currently. In 2010 he spent more time there which is why his goal/assist numbers spiked.

If anything 2008 was the year it wasn't used as much, with a detrimental effect.

I think we can all agree GAJ was most well known as a midfielder, that’s where he won most of his awards. He just happened to be an elite goal kicker as well and could play that role if needed.

Bartel whilst being a utility and rotating forward (which many players do, we even do it with Baker and Balta who are traditionally backmen) I don’t think that’s good enough to say Bartel is a forward.

He played 305 games for only 202 goals. That does not look like a ratio where you could say “yeah that player is a forward”. That looks like a ratio a midfielder would get which is why I’d say he’s a mid.

 

[Mr Meow]

I think we can all agree GAJ was most well known as a midfielder, that’s where he won most of his awards. He just happened to be an elite goal kicker as well and could play that role if needed.

Bartel whilst being a utility and rotating forward (which many players do, we even do it with Baker and Balta who are traditionally backmen) I don’t think that’s good enough to say Bartel is a forward.

He played 305 games for only 202 goals. That does not look like a ratio where you could say “yeah that player is a forward”. That looks like a ratio a midfielder would get which is why I’d say he’s a mid.

It doesn't matter where they played their best, if one of Ablett or Bartel were on a forward flank then that was an element of our forward line. Geelong's forward line specifically used the extra midfielder.

Bartel on the 2009 GF (where they shifted from this tactic so that Bartel could tag Hayes) clears this up: “I had started at half forward – so (during those years) Geelong, they’d either start myself or Gary (Ablett Jnr) at half forward, and then you’d come up the ground as an extra midfielder, and that was my role."

So again, any talk of Geelong's forward line during those years should factor in Bartel and Ablett rotating off the flank.

 

[Cleansweep17]

It doesn't matter where they played their best, if one of Ablett or Bartel were on a forward flank then that was an element of our forward line. Geelong's forward line specifically used the extra midfielder.

Bartel on the 2009 GF (where they shifted from this tactic so that Bartel could tag Hayes) clears this up: “I had started at half forward – so (during those years) Geelong, they’d either start myself or Gary (Ablett Jnr) at half forward, and then you’d come up the ground as an extra midfielder, and that was my role."

So again, any talk of Geelong's forward line during those years should factor in Bartel and Ablett rotating off the flank.

Ok so what players are they? What is their main position?

 

[Mr Meow]

Ok so what players are they? What is their main position?

Ablett and Bartel during that time played as mid/forwards, basically the opposite split of minutes to Chapman/SJ as forward/mids. The former were more like 70% mid/30% forward, while the latter were 70% forward/30% mid.

if you exclude Bartel/Ablett's forward time you effectively are slicing off one of Geelong's forward flanks, so they are a 5 man forward line. We had a surplus of midfielders, so one was basically always a high half forward.

I get that the maths of all this is confusing you. You would've thought a Richmond supporter of all people would understand hybrid roles as Martin, Edwards and others were the same. But apparently not.

 

[Cleansweep17]

Ablett and Bartel during that time played as mid/forwards, basically the opposite split of minutes to Chapman/SJ as forward/mids. The former were more like 70% mid/30% forward, while the latter were 70% forward/30% mid.

if you exclude Bartel/Ablett's forward time you effectively are slicing off one of Geelong's forward flanks, so they are a 5 man forward line. We had a surplus of midfielders, so one was basically always a high half forward.

I get that the maths of all this is confusing you. You would've thought a Richmond supporter of all people would understand hybrid roles as Martin, Edwards and others were the same. But apparently not.

Look I was just trying to say that you guys achieved a lot considering your lack of KP stock, which I find important in judging a forward line. Whilst Mooney and Hawkins (young) were good if you look at the other premiers two best fwds they are below average:

Better than 07,09,11 Mooney and Hawkins (young)

2024: Curnow/McKay

2022: Hawkins (prime)/Cameron

2020: Riewoldt/Lynch

2019: Riewoldt/Lynch

2018: Kennedy/Darling

2015: Buddy/Roughead

2014: Buddy/Roughead

2013: Buddy/Roughead

2008: Buddy/Roughead

2005: Hall/Goodes

2003: Lynch/Brown (young)

2002: Lynch/Brown (young)

2001: Lynch/Brown (young)

2000: Lloyd/Hird


Worse

2023 Pies

2021 Dees

2017 Richmond (Riewoldt on his own)

2016 Dogs

2012 Swans

2010 Pies

2006 Eagles

2004 Port

So whilst it is possible to win flags without star fwds, besides you guys it’s a struggle to win them. All the teams that had “worse” than you only had 1 flag in their “era”. (Except us but we added lynch later)

 

[HairyO]

Probably Geelong 07-11 was the most impressive considering what they achieved

3 Flags with no Coleman or Brownlow medalists in it and their best KPF was Mooney.

Lions, Hawks and Tigers all had ones

Had about 200 AA selections between them though.

 

[Cleansweep17]

Had about 200 AA selections between them though.

And look what you guys did to them.

 

[Roobs321]

Paul Bevan

now there’s a player I’ve somehow completely blanked on. Weird, because the other 21 that won the flag I still recall very vividly. Bevan is such a distant vague memory to me despite growing up watching the Swans every week.

 

[Simon_Nesbit]

Hawthorn’s 2008 backline was poor. Obviously Hodge, but after that… not much? Birchall a solid player.

No size at all - Hodge and Croad were nominally the key posts.

Gun midfield and forward line got it done.

Poor? I'd go for significantly under-rated. Haven't gone through every year but I'm not surprised it's been picked out.

Hodge was better than Sicily/Stewart at the intercept role, but like Sicily Hodge layed genuine CHB that year - teams were trying to play around him like they do May/Lever now.
Croad was in a very small window where the footballer finally caught up to the athlete (before the foot injury in GF virtually ended his career).
Birchall - Solid? He played ~250 of the most reliable rebound HBF games in the league - desperately unlucky not to have 3+ AA of his own - Enright probably owes him more than one.
Guerra - at the time was one of the best BP in the league and horrendously under-rated. Lockdown and quality rebound, with kicking skills a decade ahead of his peers.
Ladson/Ellis/Dew - In the side for their rebound, vanilla but effective.
Gilham - probably the weakest link, a solid 2nd tall KPF at best.

This thread opened up an old wound though. Swans 2012 would have arguments their defence, midfield and even their forwardline could all be potential nominations. It's been over a decade and 3 premierships later and I still can't quite work it out.

 

[Dazb86]

2016 had a bad back line and forward line

 

[Duckimus Prime]

Look I was just trying to say that you guys achieved a lot considering your lack of KP stock, which I find important in judging a forward line. Whilst Mooney and Hawkins (young) were good if you look at the other premiers two best fwds they are below average:

Better than 07,09,11 Mooney and Hawkins (young)

2022: Hawkins (prime)/Cameron

Despite coming off a recent Coleman's Tom Hawkins is well past his prime in 2022.

2015: Buddy/Roughead
2014: Buddy/Roughead
2013: Buddy/Roughead

Franklin was playing for Sydney in 2014 and 2015.

2003: Lynch/Brown (young)
2002: Lynch/Brown (young)
2001: Lynch/Brown (young)

Brisbane's key pillars during the three peat were Alastair Lynch and Daniel Bradshaw.
Brown was the third tall.

Worse
2004 Port

Go home, you're drunk.

 

[Cleansweep17]

Despite coming off a recent Coleman's Tom Hawkins is well past his prime in 2022.

Franklin was playing for Sydney in 2014 and 2015.

Brisbane's key pillars during the three peat were Alastair Lynch and Daniel Bradshaw.
Brown was the third tall.

Go home, you're drunk.

Meh my point still stands.

And if you want port 04 better than them I’d prefer that.

 

[kickazz]

Shane Ellen - 5 goals in the 97 GF.

IIRC he only kicked something like 17 for his whole career. It was a hail mary move that worked.

Up to that game, his career total was 3 goals. His 1997 total before GF day was zero.

Crazy stuff.

 

[kickazz]

Poor? I'd go for significantly under-rated. Haven't gone through every year but I'm not surprised it's been picked out.

Hodge was better than Sicily/Stewart at the intercept role, but like Sicily Hodge layed genuine CHB that year - teams were trying to play around him like they do May/Lever now.
Croad was in a very small window where the footballer finally caught up to the athlete (before the foot injury in GF virtually ended his career).
Birchall - Solid? He played ~250 of the most reliable rebound HBF games in the league - desperately unlucky not to have 3+ AA of his own - Enright probably owes him more than one.
Guerra - at the time was one of the best BP in the league and horrendously under-rated. Lockdown and quality rebound, with kicking skills a decade ahead of his peers.
Ladson/Ellis/Dew - In the side for their rebound, vanilla but effective.
Gilham - probably the weakest link, a solid 2nd tall KPF at best.

This thread opened up an old wound though. Swans 2012 would have arguments their defence, midfield and even their forwardline could all be potential nominations. It's been over a decade and 3 premierships later and I still can't quite work it out.

Yeah under-rated a better description than poor.

Defence wins premierships - you do not win flags with a 'poor' defence.

 

[Tarkyn_24]

Poor? I'd go for significantly under-rated. Haven't gone through every year but I'm not surprised it's been picked out.

Hodge was better than Sicily/Stewart at the intercept role, but like Sicily Hodge layed genuine CHB that year - teams were trying to play around him like they do May/Lever now.
Croad was in a very small window where the footballer finally caught up to the athlete (before the foot injury in GF virtually ended his career).
Birchall - Solid? He played ~250 of the most reliable rebound HBF games in the league - desperately unlucky not to have 3+ AA of his own - Enright probably owes him more than one.
Guerra - at the time was one of the best BP in the league and horrendously under-rated. Lockdown and quality rebound, with kicking skills a decade ahead of his peers.
Ladson/Ellis/Dew - In the side for their rebound, vanilla but effective.
Gilham - probably the weakest link, a solid 2nd tall KPF at best.

This thread opened up an old wound though. Swans 2012 would have arguments their defence, midfield and even their forwardline could all be potential nominations. It's been over a decade and 3 premierships later and I still can't quite work it out.

Backs and forwards, maybe.

Mids are fine though. Particularly with O’Keefe and Jetta swapped to reflect the positions they actually played.

 

[Lingsface]

How dare you insult Mitch Morton.

He was a genuine gun must of had some problems with coaches though, kicked 84 goals before given an opportunity in the 1's that year and then the grand final and the finals was one of the best players. Also at Richmond playing in a bad forward line and having to play pretty much as a key forward won the goal kicking twice I think. Skill wise as good as it comes.

 

[Ricky Vaughn]

Despite coming off a recent Coleman's Tom Hawkins is well past his prime in 2022.

Franklin was playing for Sydney in 2014 and 2015.

Brisbane's key pillars during the three peat were Alastair Lynch and Daniel Bradshaw.
Brown was the third tall.

Go home, you're drunk.

Nobody’s doubting that Hawk was good, but if the AA captain is also well past his prime, he truely was special.